Grendel
Well-Known Member
France have really been the one nation that has put its own national values before the religious doctrine and the consequences have been severe - I don’t see many others following that line
Man beheaded in Paris (7 Viewers)
- Thread starter clint van damme
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France have really been the one nation that has put its own national values before the religious doctrine and the consequences have been severe - I don’t see many others following that line
RegTheDonk
Well-Known Member
Agreed, all religion has a barbaric history and many countries still are in that state. I would like to think that in THIS country, we've grown up a bit and can accept diverse views as part of a reasonable debate. Surely people are educated enough and sensible enough to not take scriptures as literal translations of modern life.
Thankfully, Seth Macfarlane can put Black Jesus in Family Guy without worrying about having his head cut off. Shame Trey Parker couldn't do the same with Muhammad.
The answer is of course not to ban Islam, or deport all muslims. Perhaps a step forward is getting these people into 21st century values of tolerance and acceptance (and a sense of humour) and the faith leaders need to facilitate this diversity themselves.
Let's hope so.
shmmeee
Well-Known Member
This is all true. But it’s equally true of fundamentalist Christians, and extreme social conservatives and many nationalists. Russia isn’t a Muslim country but has huge issues with minority rights, so too Poland, Ukraine, etc. The problem is illiberal ideologies.
People have a right to be socially conservative. They have a right to want women behind men and being gay banned and a right to campaign for it to be so. They don’t have a right to violent action.
Ultimately these are dinosaurs without popular support and though they kill a comparative handful of people, we take measures to remodel our democracy and rule of law well beyond what we do for threats to life we actually know how to fix like heart disease and cancer.
Do I wish they’d all fuck off? Yes of course. DonI want to live in a society where someone with a fringe view but not violent is not allowed that view? Not really no. Because today it’s Muslims and tomorrow it’s people who don’t have a big enough poppy or whatever. Liberal democracy is strong enough to handle opposing views. Treat these scum like the murdering cunts they are, but don’t tear apart the house trying to kill the roaches.
I really should know better than to get involved in this thread...
But i think the main issue is, whenever there is an act of terror which appears to have originated from within the Muslim (world) community, there appears to be very little condemnation from within the powers-that-be (such as they are) within the Muslim religion.
Take for example the beheading and subsequent recent issues in France... i stand to be corrected, but i haven't seen many examples of community leaders from across the Muslim world (either in France or elsewhere) condemning the actions. You could say "well they aren't responsible for every extremist nutter...."
But it would go a long way to dispelling the opinion which seems to be widely held, that significant sections of the Muslim world, at best understand why these acts were carried out, or at worst, believe they are justified.
But i think the main issue is, whenever there is an act of terror which appears to have originated from within the Muslim (world) community, there appears to be very little condemnation from within the powers-that-be (such as they are) within the Muslim religion.
Take for example the beheading and subsequent recent issues in France... i stand to be corrected, but i haven't seen many examples of community leaders from across the Muslim world (either in France or elsewhere) condemning the actions. You could say "well they aren't responsible for every extremist nutter...."
But it would go a long way to dispelling the opinion which seems to be widely held, that significant sections of the Muslim world, at best understand why these acts were carried out, or at worst, believe they are justified.
Jamesimus
Well-Known Member
Well you definitely could say they are not responsible for these people.
But also, all attacks are widely condemned by prominent Muslim figures. The recent attacks in France being another example (feel free to Google!).
This may well be the case... but switch on Sky News, BBC News, RT, (other news channels are of course available).... and you'd be forgiven for thinking that there is far more condemnation for the nation of France for allowing the publication of cartoons (by an independent newspaper), than a large spate of beheadings, shootings and knife-attacks.
It may well be a case of me not seeking out other news, or even political agenda of those news outlets, but given that a large majority of the population will receive their news from the same outlets, it does seem a problem.
I'll say no more. I don't intend to hang about on this thread any longer.
Sky_Blue_Dreamer
Well-Known Member
Someone earlier (possibly in this thread) linked to show condemnation by the MCB for all the terrorist atrocities. It just doesn't get much exposure.
Otis
Well-Known Member
Exactly. There's plenty of condemnation.
Sky_Blue_Dreamer
Well-Known Member
Yes, Islam does need to become more moderate. But it's just venturing out into a wider world that has science and all this stuff to argue against it. Christianity reacted in an equally barbaric way at the same stage when science was just coming to the fore. Over a millennia of belief being pulled apart and the very doctrines they live by questioned.
So this probably IS the Islamic reformation. And at the time of Christian reformation it was a shitshow and people being killed for their beliefs left, right and centre because whoever had taken power thought differently to the person before.
There are many aspects of all religions I find abhorrent, such as the Hindu caste system and I include Islam in that, including their views of women, gays etc but that doesn't mean Muslims are dangerous or evil, even though a few will be. But the problem is that there are plenty of people that would take 'Islam is dangerous' and just automatically apply it to everyone of that faith and thus legitimise them as a target. Even a far more liberal Christian church will still see numerous people of the faith denounce women's rights and homosexuality - just look at the US.
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jimmyhillsfanclub
Well-Known Member
Yep....plenty of condemnation.
Unfortunately for the faith of Islam, the ample images of flag burning death chanting rabbles, thousands strong, protesting about a fucking cartoon often trumps a modest apologetic old imam or mullah stood behind a Mike at a mosque.
For the record, I think all religion is poisonous and originated in much the same way the dumbass conspiracy theories get traction today.....
...no easy answer or explanation.?....oh well, just make the shit up.
Unfortunately for the faith of Islam, the ample images of flag burning death chanting rabbles, thousands strong, protesting about a fucking cartoon often trumps a modest apologetic old imam or mullah stood behind a Mike at a mosque.
For the record, I think all religion is poisonous and originated in much the same way the dumbass conspiracy theories get traction today.....
...no easy answer or explanation.?....oh well, just make the shit up.
jimmyhillsfanclub
Well-Known Member
Yep....depressing tho it currently is, tis merely the next blip/blot in the big scheme of things.....
TomRad85
Well-Known Member
I didn't want to enter this thread, there have been some unfortunate comments, but I am bored and actually interested to see what people think...
My wife is Turkish Cypriot, her parents still live in North Cyprus. The people there are very very moderate, if the whole Islamic world was like them the world would be a better place (same applies to West Turkey, not East.) They celebrate eid but mainly just a dinner or something to respect the oldies, I also pay my respects to them. Now recently North Cyprus has become more and more under the thumb of main land Turkey (Erdogan) leading to more mosques being chucked up and and loads of more hard line Muslims moving in (they often refer to the women as ninjas... not offensive when they say it?) This is extremely unpopular with the locals as they are fully aware of what comes along with this, repression and violence. So does that make them Islamophobic?
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My wife is Turkish Cypriot, her parents still live in North Cyprus. The people there are very very moderate, if the whole Islamic world was like them the world would be a better place (same applies to West Turkey, not East.) They celebrate eid but mainly just a dinner or something to respect the oldies, I also pay my respects to them. Now recently North Cyprus has become more and more under the thumb of main land Turkey (Erdogan) leading to more mosques being chucked up and and loads of more hard line Muslims moving in (they often refer to the women as ninjas... not offensive when they say it?) This is extremely unpopular with the locals as they are fully aware of what comes along with this, repression and violence. So does that make them Islamophobic?
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D
Deleted member 5849
Guest
No, because they're judging a specific act, rather than pre-judging your wife based on her cultural heritage.
Oh, and you've acknowledged difference, rather than lumping all Muslims in together.
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TomRad85
Well-Known Member
Yes correct, so I would say its perfectly normal to question Islam when extreme moderates who were moving away from it are very wary of its return. What you call Islamophobia, just be lumping them all in together, would just be straight up racism in my eyes.
I don't think some in the thread have come off great with their wording but I get where they are coming from and sincerely hope they are not just straight up racist.
We need to have (not us personally, people in general) conversations about the way forward for Islam within the west without just using lazy, 'yeh but Christianity, Hindus etc...' type arguments.
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Evo1883
Well-Known Member
Race doesn't enter into my thinking, the religion is my sole focus of the discussion
TomRad85
Well-Known Member
Fair enough, and I think people need to ask questions, have discussions, as its clearly a major problem. While bearing in mind there are moderates out there who get caught in the cross fire of all this bullshit. Normal people just living their lives.
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The Greek Orthodox priest shooting took a turn .
.
Lyon shooting: Suspect admits attacking priest 'over affair'
It was initially feared that the wounding of an Orthodox cleric in Lyon was a terror attack.
www.bbc.com
clint van damme
Well-Known Member
The Greek Orthodox priest shooting took a turn .
.Lyon shooting: Suspect admits attacking priest 'over affair'
It was initially feared that the wounding of an Orthodox cleric in Lyon was a terror attack.www.bbc.com
Perhaps he should now be referred to as a Greek unorthodox priest?
Malaka
Well-Known Member
I was christened in a Greek-Orthodox church. The hypocrisy of the many that go there and the power and influence it has over people is concerning. My Yia Yia (Gran to you) was convinced I was going to burn in hell and prayed for me every night. My crime, turning my back on religion.
Sky Blue Pete
Well-Known Member
you may. We all may
hill83
Well-Known Member
Liquid Gold
Well-Known Member
'God told me to invade Iraq', Bush told advisers
US president George Bush has said that he was instructed by God to invade Iraq and Afghanistan, according to a new BBC series…
Does this mean a million people murdered in Iraq was a Christian attack on Muslims?
Evo1883
Well-Known Member
'God told me to invade Iraq', Bush told advisers
US president George Bush has said that he was instructed by God to invade Iraq and Afghanistan, according to a new BBC series…www.irishtimes.com
Does this mean a million people murdered in Iraq was a Christian attack on Muslims?
No, it does however mean that Blair and Bush should be tried for war crimes... Which even before that bonkers admission is what should have happened anyway.
Liquid Gold
Well-Known Member
So let's punish people responsible for the crimes then. Not everybody in the UK or US is a danger because millions of people were killed in our name. Not every Muslim is a danger when terrorists kill in their name.
Evo1883
Well-Known Member
I think that is obvious, but that's not the argument.
Liquid Gold
Well-Known Member
But it is. I'm sure those supportive of Islamism think the west have a problem because 'we' can't stop bombing, invading and supporting random armed groups in there communities. Some people here think the whole of Islam is an issue because of some horrific attacks. Let's isolate and deal with the fuck wits on both sides and let reasonable people see that the rest of us just want to get on with our lives.
Evo1883
Well-Known Member
I think you like many many people vastly underestimate how many Muslims hold extreme views,Like I said, that are not compatible with our modern values.
Why do people like you always find a way to turn it on us, the west when these people have spent hundreds of years behaving this way?
It's weird
Do you reckon most of Britain spent all their time arguing that Hitler and the nazis only did what they did because of the treaty of Versailles?claiming it was on us why they behaved the way they did.... Or was it just because they were always that way anyway
Liquid Gold
Well-Known Member
1. When you turn it round I'm sure Muslims think we're all imperialists trying to wage Christian religious war against them. They're just as scared as we are.
2. Many Muslim countries have horrific practices. None more than Saudi who actually export the most extreme ideologies and fund schools that teach kids that martyrdom is the goal. I'd stop all funding to these countries immediately and ban any British businesses from trading with them.
3. "These people have spent hundreds of years behaving that way" - In the same period we've (the west) enslaved a whole race of people, committed horrific genocide in Africa, almost wiped out native Americans, attempted to wipe out Jews and even in the last few years been the cause of the deaths of millions of Muslims.
The rhetoric that the whole religion is the problem feeds the divide. We need to come together as a human race and tell the extremists on all sides that they won't be welcome anywhere.
Evo1883
Well-Known Member
I absolutely 1 million % disagree with you on this subject (besides Saudi Arabia ) , I can't be any clearer.
What do we do now? Just move on Is my best guess
shmmeee
Well-Known Member
Do you have any proof for this whatsoever? A quick google suggests for example that Muslims view on gay marriage is slightly more progressive than Conservative Party members (52%-40% for respectively). Should we deport all the Tories?
Your entire “argument” seems to be baseless assertions and nudge nudge wink wink racism TBH.
Are Muslims more socially conservative than non religious Brits? Yeah probably. But so what? So are you. You’ve failed to provide any proof Islam is to blame for anything more than poverty or more than any other religion.
D
Deleted member 5849
Guest
Bad example really. Hitler and the Nazis did indeed get a certain level of popular support, partly because the Treaty of Versailles was seen as overly harsh on the people of Germany, and was used and manipulated by bad people to whip up a certain resentment, and give legitimacy to actions that would have otherwise been condemned absolutely.
Lots of conditioning to hate the foreigners for the actions of governments went on.
Liquid Gold
Well-Known Member
I think moving on with it is a better solution than me calling you a racist and you calling me a grooming sympathiser that some would prefer tbh.
clint van damme
Well-Known Member
Definitely