The EU: In, out, shake it all about.... (135 Viewers)

[Astute]

Just spotted this.

Sorry but this is ridiculous. You constantly avoid any challenge to your ideas by picking up on tiny perceived slights instead of addressing the evidence put in front of you. Then, with more projection than a CinePlex, you accuse others of twisting your words and failing to see the truth.

Here, you said:



The implication being that those who are against Brexit are hypocrites because when the EU is giving money to the rich we say nothing.

I then post an article showing that the reason those landowners get silly money isn’t because of the EU, but because the U.K. government has decided to not apply a ceiling in England like they have in the other U.K. countries.

Furthermore that article shows that the reason CAP hasn’t been reformed how you would like is that the U.K. has been obstructing said reforms.

So, to sum up: it’s not hypocritical to be against Brexit and CAP payments to the undeserving because it was a U.K. government decision to enact those payments and prevent reform. Post Brexit we will still have that government with all the same lobbying and old boys networks that lead to our existing policy of giving lots of money to rich landowners.

Equally I could link you to decades of activism from the left on land reform and show how the right has fought against this both in parliament and the media (“Labour’s garden tax” anyone?). However let’s stick with that point and that article, actually answer the issue instead of crying off about it.

How does Brexit help the issue of large landowners having a disproportionate sway over U.K. legislature and general policy? Furthermore, how exactly is someone who is anti Brexit also anti CAP reform?

So why is it that there are other countries that get more for their rich people than the UK?

And do you expect me to defend the Tories?

 

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[Brighton Sky Blue]

But if you had followed your head and not your heart you would have seen it coming.

In 2017 he said he’d respect the Brexit result. In 2019 he was a blithering mess.

 

[Astute]

In 2017 he said he’d respect the Brexit result. In 2019 he was a blithering mess.

And I got constantly hounded for saying so.

If you noticed why didn't you ever publicly agree with me?

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

And I got constantly hounded for saying so.

If you noticed why didn't you ever publicly agree with me?

I criticised him for most of 2019. Look back at the posts if you like. But in 2017 the manifesto was bang on and he campaigned brilliantly which is why I voted for him as leader 5 years ago

 

[Astute]

I criticised him for most of 2019. Look back at the posts if you like. But in 2017 the manifesto was bang on and he campaigned brilliantly which is why I voted for him as leader 5 years ago

No charisma and too many skeletons in the closet. Gave top jobs to mates and not those best for the job.

So he was always there to be shot at and defended instead of attacking the Tories. It was never going to end well.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

No charisma and too many skeletons in the closet. Gave top jobs to mates and not those best for the job.

So he was always there to be shot at and defended instead of attacking the Tories. It was never going to end well.

The Labour leader always will be. I voted for him in 2015 because he was the only one saying things I agreed with and wasn’t afraid to say what he really thought. Those qualities got him a higher share of the vote than Blair in his last GE.

By 2019 he had lost the plot at the hands of Brexit and I said as much most of the year. As any of the other teachers or ex teachers here will tell you, I was disagreeing with them on the issue

 

[Astute]

The Labour leader always will be. I voted for him in 2015 because he was the only one saying things I agreed with and wasn’t afraid to say what he really thought. Those qualities got him a higher share of the vote than Blair in his last GE.

By 2019 he had lost the plot at the hands of Brexit and I said as much most of the year. As any of the other teachers or ex teachers here will tell you, I was disagreeing with them on the issue

I agree with a fair bit.

But beating the last Bliar vote? He had just shafted everyone's pension. He took us to war on a lie. He shafted the poor in several ways. He was that far right that the Tories loved him.

My point will always be the same. We need a leader who appeals to the majority. Someone without skeletons that come back to haunt. Corbyn was never that person. He even struggled when the Tories were in a total mess

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

I agree with a fair bit.

But beating the last Bliar vote? He had just shafted everyone's pension. He took us to war on a lie. He shafted the poor in several ways. He was that far right that the Tories loved him.

My point will always be the same. We need a leader who appeals to the majority. Someone without skeletons that come back to haunt. Corbyn was never that person. He even struggled when the Tories were in a total mess

I only mention Blair as he is often held up as an example of an election winning specialist. You are right that Blair had a lot of baggage in 2005, he did still win though. And many told us Corbyn would lead Labour to annihilation in 2017. He in fact got a very high % of the vote and reclaimed some Scottish seats. I was right in backing him then as I was right to turn on him last year.

 

[Deleted member 5849]

I only mention Blair as he is often held up as an example of an election winning specialist. You are right that Blair had a lot of baggage in 2005, he did still win though. And many told us Corbyn would lead Labour to annihilation in 2017. He in fact got a very high % of the vote and reclaimed some Scottish seats. I was right in backing him then as I was right to turn on him last year.

Corbyn's 2017 campaign was energetic, positive, constructive. He turned the momentum (no pun intended) from years of lacklustre Labour campaigns, and offered hope. He improved on where they were, and you could argue that without the internal division beforehand, he'd have done even better.

So, there was hope come 2019 he'd do the same. But the campaign was lacklustre, dull, muddled... and it looked like he wasn't bothered, and had given up. *That* campaign lost momentum through the month beforehand, and let an opportunity slip.

But it wasn't unreasonable to hope / expect similar to 2017.

 

[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

What do you mean by my own admission?

Shows you only ever read what you want to. I have constantly mentioned it for years. Try asking those who always try and pick fault with anything I say even if they agree with me.

Good chance they won't reply though.

As you didn't seem to read your own words I'll repost them. These were in the very same post.

Untold billions of EU money goes to the rich who own land for not growing what they were not going to grow.

Maybe those on here that attack the rich will finally have a go at those creaming off taxpayers money gifted to them in EU payments.

In the first you talk about the rich landowners getting money for not growing anything

Then at the bottom of the post you talk about those attacking the rich.

You attacked the rich in your very own post. The people that are creaming off taxpayers money in EU payments ARE, in the main, the rich. You say so yourself.

I've not seen anyone supporting the CAP or giving loads of money to the rich landowners to do bugger all. It's riled me since I first heard about in in GCSE geography 25 years ago. It's a travesty. Especially those that took that money, turned the land into private golf courses/clubs for use by their rich mates and made money from the land doing that.

 

[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

No charisma and too many skeletons in the closet. Gave top jobs to mates and not those best for the job.

Apart from the charisma this differs from Boris how?

 

[shmmeee]

Apart from the charisma this differs from Boris how?

Hey we want out useless and corrupt leaders to effectively hoodwink us so we don’t feel bad about voting them in!

 

[Astute]

As you didn't seem to read your own words I'll repost them. These were in the very same post.




In the first you talk about the rich landowners getting money for not growing anything

Then at the bottom of the post you talk about those attacking the rich.

You attacked the rich in your very own post. The people that are creaming off taxpayers money in EU payments ARE, in the main, the rich. You say so yourself.

I've not seen anyone supporting the CAP or giving loads of money to the rich landowners to do bugger all. It's riled me since I first heard about in in GCSE geography 25 years ago. It's a travesty. Especially those that took that money, turned the land into private golf courses/clubs for use by their rich mates and made money from the land doing that.

Are you trying to make a point?

 

[Ian1779]

Brexiteers having meltdowns on Twitter because some EU countries are restricting our freedom of movement....

 

[skybluetony176]

Brexiteers having meltdowns on Twitter because some EU countries are restricting our freedom of movement....

I’m not surprised. That’s the job of brexiteers and we all know how they don’t like Johnny Foreigner taking their job.

 

[skybluetony176]

Seeing a few calls in the media to extend the transition period, deal or no deal. We’re not prepared for either scenario, partly due to the distraction of Covid and largely because “we’ve” elected a bunch of incompetent, moronic, second rate journalists as a government led by other second rate journalists who beat the drum.

 

[jimmyhillsfanclub]

Anyone else a little skeptical about the french freight ban at the channel?

....i totally get the travel bans, but freight has flowed freely throughout the pandemic.....now boom...

....nice opportunity to exert maximum pressure regards a last minute Brexit deal perhaps...

...or am I just too cynical?

 

[clint van damme]

Anyone else a little skeptical about the french freight ban at the channel?

....i totally get the travel bans, but freight has flowed freely throughout the pandemic.....now boom...

....nice opportunity to exert maximum pressure regards a last minute Brexit deal perhaps...

...or am I just too cynical?

I wouldn't be surprised. This pandemic has offered all sorts openings for opportunistic politicians.

 

[wingy]

Anyone else a little skeptical about the french freight ban at the channel?

....i totally get the travel bans, but freight has flowed freely throughout the pandemic.....now boom...

....nice opportunity to exert maximum pressure regards a last minute Brexit deal perhaps...

...or am I just too cynical?

Well it could be ,but then there have been alarming statements and suggested extreme percentages bandied about .
It's only 48 hrs v, possibly would like to take that time to evaluate the data over there, which I'm not entirely certain apart from a couple of graphs has been put up for review .
Anyone know if that's the way it's gone before or statements following data release?

 

[Sick Boy]

Anyone else a little skeptical about the french freight ban at the channel?

....i totally get the travel bans, but freight has flowed freely throughout the pandemic.....now boom...

....nice opportunity to exert maximum pressure regards a last minute Brexit deal perhaps...

...or am I just too cynical?

Maybe you should ask KC if you can borrow his tinfoil hat

 

[Grendel]

Maybe you should ask KC if you can borrow his tinfoil hat

The french are proper nationalists. Macron loves the posturing and the theatre - if fishing is really the only issue it’s as much macron as is causing waves. They are by nature are far more right wing leaning society than most in Europe

 

[CCFCSteve]

Interesting (ish) well balanced article on the fish negotiations and potential solution if anyone’s interested...makes a solution sound doable (with a bit of political will on both sides)

Here’s a Brexit compromise on fish — and both sides would be wise to take it

Raoul Ruparel, who correctly predicted the landing zone for last year’s Brexit deal, says a trade deal is within reach.

www.politico.eu

 

[BodicoteSkyBlue]

Anyone else a little skeptical about the french freight ban at the channel?

....i totally get the travel bans, but freight has flowed freely throughout the pandemic.....now boom...

....nice opportunity to exert maximum pressure regards a last minute Brexit deal perhaps...

...or am I just too cynical?

Too right! If the shoe was on the other foot, I’d fully expect (doubtful if they would) our government to to the same.

 

[skybluetony176]

Grrr. They’ve taken away our free trade.

Wait? What?

 

[Sick Boy]

France 'could have helped UK tackle new Covid strain if not for Brexit'

French commissioner's comments come as France says lorry drivers must register negative test on arrival for freight ban to be lifted

The French government could have "helped" Britain tackle the infectious new strain of coronavirus if not for Brexit, France's EU commissioner said as the country demanded tests for lorry drivers to lift its freight ban.

Asked about the new outbreak, Thierry Breton said: "It's a tragedy what's happening in Britain, and this Brexit is a tragedy – we see it more and more every day."

If Britain "had chosen to remain in the European Union... today we could have helped them," Mr Breton told BFM Business.

His comments are likely to fuel anger in Britain after France banned freight and flights until at least midnight on Tuesday, a move Grant Shapps, the Transport Secretary, described as surprising.

Natalie Elphicke, the Tory MP for Dover, said: "The French Government's decision to close the border at no notice was unnecessary, unhelpful and irresponsible. It has caused serious traffic congestion at a time when traffic flows were already high, with Christmas and over-stocking causing congestion at a number of ports ahead of the end of the transition period.

France 'could have helped UK tackle new Covid strain if not for Brexit'

French commissioner's comments come as France says lorry drivers must register negative test on arrival for freight ban to be lifted

www.telegraph.co.uk

He was actually referring to the EU commission and the fund available though, wasn’t he, not France.

 

[chiefdave]

 

[stupot07]

Well after all the fuss about us wanting all our fishing waters back, it seems after initial demanding a 60% reduction in what the eu catch, the eu suggested 25% reduction, we have counter offered 35%.

The fishermen have been screwed, we all knew Boris would cave in.

Sent from my SM-G965F using Tapatalk

 

[CCFCSteve]

Well after all the fuss about us wanting all our fishing waters back, it seems after initial demanding a 60% reduction in what the eu catch, the eu suggested 25% reduction, we have counter offered 35%.

The fishermen have been screwed, we all knew Boris would cave in.

Sent from my SM-G965F using Tapatalk

See article I’ve attached above. Pretty much suggested that as a compromise (over transition period of 5 tears) and why it works for both sides.

As I’ve said before, what do people actually want ? (in particular the extreme Remainers who have never accepted result and the ‘cut all ties’ brexiteers). Most people in the middle (which is a majority of the public) want compromise so if thats what they agree on fishing I’ll take it

ps original proposal from EU was to keep status quo which most considered totally unacceptable

 

[Grendel]

See article I’ve attached above. Pretty much suggested that as a compromise (over transition period of 5 tears) and why it works for both sides.

As I’ve said before, what do people actually want ? (in particular the extreme Remainers who have never accepted result and the ‘cut all ties’ brexiteers). Most people in the middle (which is a majority of the public) want compromise so if thats what they agree on fishing I’ll take it

ps original proposal from EU was to keep status quo which most considered totally unacceptable

Exactly if this current it’s exactly both sides equally giving in. I actually think macron will veto it he’s in little emperor mode

 

[shmmeee]

Just don’t want a massive recession just as we come out of the pandemic TBH.

 

[CCFCSteve]

Exactly if this current it’s exactly both sides equally giving in. I actually think macron will veto it he’s in little emperor mode

Sounds like the EC is having to get involved in both the fisheries (from what I’ve read Barnier and CVD apparently want to accept UKs latest proposal, France and possibly Denmark don’t) and the travel disruption by calling on countries (ie France) not to disrupt the supply chain. It’s not just French and UK lorries stuck but probably loads of other European countries hauliers, many of whom are trying to get home for Christmas.

 

[Sick Boy]

Sounds like the EC is having to get involved in both the fisheries (from what I’ve read Barnier and CVD apparently want to accept UKs latest proposal, France and possibly Denmark don’t) and the travel disruption by calling on countries (ie France) not to disrupt the supply chain. It’s not just French and UK lorries stuck but probably loads of other European countries hauliers, many of whom are trying to get home for Christmas.

From what I’ve seen they’re still looking to get the UK to move a bit more and get those against to compromise.

 

[CCFCSteve]

From what I’ve seen they’re still looking to get the UK to move a bit more and get those against to compromise.

yeah, sounds like they’re edging closer at least

Von der Leyen takes control of Brexit talks in attempt to strike deal

European commission president said to be in constant contact with Boris Johnson as fishing remains key issue

www.theguardian.com

 

[clint van damme]

Just don’t want a massive recession just as we come out of the pandemic TBH.

It's ok, Sunaks urging everyone to spunk they're savings to avoid it while him and his missus sit on billions.
I should have listened when people said he was as bad as the others.

 

[Earlsdon_Skyblue1]

France to reopen the border at midnight.

Suspect this has less to do with 'the strain' than they have been making out. I suppose having truck drivers shiting in bushes at Dover isn't a good look for the EU.

Suspect a deal might be about to happen.