fernandopartridge
Well-Known Member
Thought it was Corbyn they all hated or has that story changed again?
The EU: In, out, shake it all about.... (117 Viewers)
- Thread starter jimmyhillsfanclub
- Start date
chiefdave
Well-Known Member
Not sure it will work like that. If Brexit is a success the Conservatives will claim the credit. If its a disaster anytime Starmer brings up anything about it being a bad deal it will just be batted away with 'you voted for it'.
Ian1779
Well-Known Member
Just come out apologise for trying to do it in the first place. Starmer should have done this Day 1, as should have Corbyn before him.
Skybluefaz
Well-Known Member
What has that got to do with Brexit?
Mucca Mad Boys
Well-Known Member
Jo Swinson and Corbyn bottled their opportunity to have a second referendum. They couldn’t work together electorally and that cost both parties seats. So it seems pretty pointless that Corbyn is grandstanding by opposing the deal, when the alternative is no deal and a harder Brexit.
Brexit is happening, and we’ve got to hope that it goes well and we become more outward looking as a nation.
Ian1779
Well-Known Member
A plan to have one should have never got off the ground. Leave would have won by an even bigger margin second time round.
chiefdave
Well-Known Member
Is he grandstanding? He was one of 52 MPs who abstained, he wasn't even one of the 73 MPs who voted against it.
Not sure why anyone is really concerned about how he votes, he's no longer leader, in fact he's not even a Labour MP. How he votes is pretty much insignificant in a parliament where the government has a huge majority.
Grendel
Well-Known Member
He argued abstaining was not an avoidance of the issue but a positive action. His reasoning on Brexit is it’s not positive and avoiding the issue.
Mucca Mad Boys
Well-Known Member
I get that on a level, but the alternative is no deal at all.
To be frank, the deal isn’t all that bad. Zero tariff and zero quota access to the EU Single Market without having to pay into it, is not that bad an outcome. It’s still a ‘hard’ Brexit, but you don’t want to like Norway where you pay to be in the club, but with no representation or say in decision making.
Even countries within the single market, you have to do customs declarations. A soft Brexit is, in a way, the worst of both worlds; you don’t get benefits of being in the EU whilst also not benefitting from the potential pros of Brexit.
In the short term, it’ll be a big shock to the country and economically, not as beneficial as EU membership. Longer term, there is some potential.
Grendel
Well-Known Member
Other than the fact that everyone knows that he McDonnell and Abbot have always wanted remain to fail and if you put a truth drug on him even this is not going far enough
skybluetony176
Well-Known Member
Just watching some of the scenes from parliament today.
Thrown under the Brexit bus. Northern Ireland, the NHS funding promise from the side of said bus, sovereignty in parts of the U.K., the Kent countryside, fishing industry, workers rights, individual rights, the promise of cutting red tape, a reduction in free trade, the finance industry. I’m sure I’ve missed some.
All for a blue passport that we always could have had and a points based immigration system that’s already being diluted to make immigration easier.
Thrown under the Brexit bus. Northern Ireland, the NHS funding promise from the side of said bus, sovereignty in parts of the U.K., the Kent countryside, fishing industry, workers rights, individual rights, the promise of cutting red tape, a reduction in free trade, the finance industry. I’m sure I’ve missed some.
All for a blue passport that we always could have had and a points based immigration system that’s already being diluted to make immigration easier.
Mucca Mad Boys
Well-Known Member
You’re right. I’m just frustrated he’s giving the spiel about Brexit being ‘a race to the bottom’ when his blunders have contributed to this outcome.
I genuinely like Corbyn in my Uni days, but he really could’ve done with reading some Machiavelli. Ineffective politician.
Mucca Mad Boys
Well-Known Member
I believe Leave could definitely have won again. There’s polls that suggest Leave would still win.
He had a the unenviable task of uniting a pro-EU, metropolitan voters and the pro-Brexit traditional working class, blue collar voters. With hindsight, failure was predictable.
His ultimate failure was a lack of coherent policy on Brexit that managed to alienate both Remainers and Brexiteers.
Sky Blue Pete
Well-Known Member
Post-Brexit trade: UK having its cake and eating it, says Boris Johnson
The PM refuses to acknowledge his post-Brexit trade deal brings new barriers to trade, in a BBC interview.
www.bbc.co.uk
Boris seems to think positivity can win through. Maybe he’s right
skybluetony176
Well-Known Member
Doubtful. The guy is in serious need of a reality check.Post-Brexit trade: UK having its cake and eating it, says Boris Johnson
The PM refuses to acknowledge his post-Brexit trade deal brings new barriers to trade, in a BBC interview.www.bbc.co.uk
Boris seems to think positivity can win through. Maybe he’s right
clint van damme
Well-Known Member
this country is fucked, this man is an elected politician. State of it
David O'Day
Well-Known Member
D
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Grendel
Well-Known Member
jimmyhillsfanclub
Well-Known Member
Of course if this bloke actually had any balls, he could have presented an alternative Brexit to the people for us to leave out of the left hand door.....and maybe engaging the youth, the disenfranchised and the working classes.....
....but no....he sat on his hands, on the fence, and watched the shit storm from the sidelines......cowardly prick.
....and now we've got a tory wank sock sir keir the nowhere man as "leader" of the opposition.....I fucking despair
clint van damme
Well-Known Member
a cardboard cut out, in a hotel corridor. The mans lost his mind.
fernandopartridge
Well-Known Member
She would never have left he single market
Ian1779
Well-Known Member
His failing was allowing the others in the party to dictate the Brexit narrative, not him. Not saying it was the easiest job uniting a party machine generally at odds with its voter base - especially outside of the big cities, but he should have taken decisive leadership.... at the very least refusing the plan to not honour the result.
Brylowes
Well-Known Member
Fully agree with most of this.You got it
My reasoning has always come from comparing the average voter, the average Tory plan and the average Labour plan.
The average voter wants what is best for them. They say about being happy to pay more in tax but put their x elsewhere. The average Labour Party wants what is best for the poor/lower paid. The Tories announce their best parts, keep quiet on those the majority wouldn't like and expand on those that other parties have where the voters might not like and make them sound worse. There goes your policies and party political broadcasts.
The Tories won't be shouting about our future with the EU. They will condition the voters first. Once the majority wants what their aims are they will happen.
Let's go back to this last minute deal and it being planned in advance. Within a few days 27 countries got through a lot of paperwork and agreed to it. Does anyone really believe this paperwork was sorted and agreed in a few days? I am sure it was planned well in advance. Macron even put his reputation on the line in France and got exactly what he stated he would. We got conditioned to expect the worst and at the last minute got a deal.
So the conditioning will continue. The Tories will continue to let us know what their aims are. We will get most of what they say but will compromise in other areas. But we will be happy because we get what we want. Eventually we will have the vast majority of what we had previously but not in name. It will be known as 'a special deal'
At the end of the day the Conservative Party are just the political wing of the British establishment, always were and always will be.
Brylowes
Well-Known Member
Ah that’s brilliant!!
Did they get Rolf to contribute his bit whilst on a tea-break from his police interview.
Astute
Well-Known Member
Tories and Labour are different to different people. This is the problem.
Long term shows vote Labour vote tax increases. Vote Tory vote tax cuts. Do you want more money in your pay packet?
All is good until things in life go wrong. Normally when you need the services that are paid for by tax. This is when most people consider the problems of paying less tax. But by then it is too late. They mainly considered the spongers who never did a days work and not those in need.
We have a great NHS. It is very expensive to run but is a lifesaver. You see people on here saying how far behind other countries our NHS is but the NHS is free. I see France called better all the time. But that is by those who don't know what they are talking about. Yes it is a great system. But it isn't free. Only basic is free. We pay €450 a month which covers nearly everything. Have an ongoing problem? Not a problem if you can afford about 1k a month insurance. Yet it is compared to the NHS.
Tax cuts v paying extra tax. Are you a gambling person?
shmmeee
Well-Known Member
Yeah that didn’t work so well for the Iraq war. This is boris’ deal whoever votes for it. Starmer is right, every single one of those abstaining of voting against would vote for if they didn’t have the cover of adults doing their job.
It’s a total fantasy that anyone upset with Brexit is going to blame Kier Starmer FFS. Also the vast vast majority of the public remain and leave Labour or not support this strategy.
shmmeee
Well-Known Member
Do you have any proof whatsoever for the tax rise/tax cut thing?
Astute
Well-Known Member
As much as you like.
Which party is for the poorer in our community? Which party is for the rich in our community?
Which party cuts funding to those in need? If they didn't cut the funding where would the money come from?
Or are you now defending the Tories?
Sick Boy
Super Moderator
In reality it’s very much in the EU’s favour and gives zero tariff access to the UK for import and exports on goods.
How anyone can describe it as not that bad for Britain when the Services industry is not included.
Not sure the threat of no deal was ever real, the transition could have been extended. It’s been done to get it rushed through with minimal scrutiny.
clint van damme
Well-Known Member
Gove said last night it was a great deal for the service industries even though they're not included!
I know politicians have always been liars but this mob are off the scale.
As for the zero tariff access the EU can impose tariffs and other sanctions on UK exports if they diverge from EU standards, do you know if there is any mechanism or circumstance for the UK to do likewise to the EU?
clint van damme
Well-Known Member
according to the IFS the we're taxed more now than for decades when NI and VAT are taken into account, income tax is probably lower:
How the Conservatives increased the tax take to a near-record high
The steady increase in taxation since 2010 represents an ideological victory for the left.
www.newstatesman.com
clint van damme
Well-Known Member
I'm no Starmer fan but I don't see what choice he had here.
What he does need to do which he probably won't is go on the attack in the coming months.
We've had some absolute whoppers from the tories in the last few days, especially Gove who could potentially be PM next year, don't let it drop, keep shining a light on their bullshit.
fernandopartridge
Well-Known Member
You'd think it absurd that the current government still blames a government of 10 years ago for austerity but here we are
Sick Boy
Super Moderator
The lack of a deal for Services is a huge concern for the UK and the deflection around fishing seems to have kept it out of the spotlight.
Ultimately, it’s a better deal for the EU from this angle - it’s retained tariff free access to the UK for its exports, while the UK has a 80% services economy with its biggest exporter being the EU, yet it’s not covered in the deal.
As far as I know from coverage here both sides can impose tariffs if either side has reduced standards to gain an economic advantage after it’s been shown to have diverged by an independent judicial review.
Ultimately the UK is likely to go for deregulation though in the long-term, of course.
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