Points to survive (3 Viewers)

[tisza]

Does anyone reckon that that average wage is massively inflated by those teams that have come down from the Prem and still got those level of wages on their books.

The average wage there is 60k pw (which itself will be inflated by some on 150-200k+ a week) but even if you've got most of your squad on say 30k a week that could distort the figures significantly if you've got half a dozen clubs in that boat. Plus with their parachute payments they'll probably pay above average even on new signings in an attempt to go back up.

Interesting. Relegated sides have recently held most their players. Obviously most sides that "reside" in the bottom half of PL do build in relegation pay-cuts.
As the 29k is an average you could see that for example the average between us and Stoke is probably around 29k. For every Stoke, relegated club there is a City, Barnsley, Rotherham, Wycombe that holds the average down.

 

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[Magwitch]

Forest and Derby were not really contenders for relegation before the start of the season. They're now picking up more points so both could pull away in the next few months. Barnsley and Luton have done better than expected.
Shef Wed will struggle, Wycombe haven't got much hope. I'd like to think we'll finish above them. I look at Rotherham and hope we finish above them. We still have to go to their place and have seen they can put performances together (3-0 away at 'Boro). I llook at QPR, Birmingham and a couple others, thinking we could finish above them.

I'm still holding out hope that Derby get a points deduction. I know that sounds petty and possibly malicious. However they cheated financially and got away with it last year, just like Man City did with the court of arbitration for sport appeal against UEFA. For this league to have any transparency and respect, teams need to have a modicum of respect for financial fair play. I know we're not perfect, but there's plenty of other examples. Bristol City have the Hargreaves Lansdown owner (Lansdown) pumping millions out of his own pocket every year. At least they're honest and don't buy back their ground for dodgy prices.

Why are Derby possibly in line for a points deduction ?

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Why are Derby possibly in line for a points deduction ?

Late payment of wages, grifting a stadium sale to inflate the budget, sort of shite Wednesday got a deduction for

 

[Ccfcisparks]

Typically each year has 2 relegated teams that hang around the bottom all year. There’s then a sinker, a team that’s seemingly comfortable that completely drops second half of the season year. I can see that being Millwall this year.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Typically each year has 2 relegated teams that hang around the bottom all year. There’s then a sinker, a team that’s seemingly comfortable that completely drops second half of the season year. I can see that being Millwall this year.

Birmingham look primed for it to be honest, if they really are dropping £2 mill on an SPL striker with just 3 goals this season

 

[Londonccfcfan]

I think you're the first person, other than me, to mention Huddersfield.
They're in free fall at the moment and we can go above them if we win our game in hand.

I think big Mick will get Cardiff out of trouble.

Huddersfield have been unfortunate they literally battered Bristol City in their last game in all ways but result. The commentator was flabbergasted how Bristol won that game! Huddersfield should be fine. Huddersfield do have issues up front like us just are not clinical enough.

Bristol City 2-1 Huddersfield Town: Famara Diedhiou scores twice to give hosts win - BBC Sport

Bristol city scored with literally their only 2 shots on goal.

 

[Frostie]

Huddersfield have been unfortunate they literally battered Bristol City in their last game in all ways but result. The commentator was flabbergasted how Bristol won that game! Huddersfield should be fine. Huddersfield do have issues up front like us just are not clinical enough.

Bristol City 2-1 Huddersfield Town: Famara Diedhiou scores twice to give hosts win - BBC Sport

Bristol city scored with literally their only 2 shots on goal.

They did, Fraizer Campbell missed 2 great chances too, should have won that game never mind lose it.
That said, results & performances have been worrying of late but I think they'll be ok.

Birmingham look devoid of all ideas. Karanka is a very stubborn, defence minded manager whose teams often struggle to score goals. At Blues though he's not even made them secure defensively. Birmingham fans I know are convinced they're going down.

 

[Barnsley]

Who do you reckon is your highest paid player Barnsley

I would imagine Mowatt or Woodrow, they’re the only two that I can remember signing a contract extension with us, when other clubs were rumoured to have been interested. I’d think both are in the 10k a week area.

 

[rexo87]

I would imagine Mowatt or Woodrow, they’re the only two that I can remember signing a contract extension with us, when other clubs were rumoured to have been interested. I’d think both are in the 10k a week area.

So why is us having 1 player on 10k so laughable?


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[Barnsley]

So why is us having 1 player on 10k so laughable?


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It’s not laughable, as much as it’s mind blowing. You’re a newly promoted club, who don’t have their own stadium in their own city, and therefor a substantial amount of Matchday revenue is missing, even before the effects of covid-19 come into play, in the middle of a global pandemic your club are able to be offering out contacts of 10k a week with out any significant player sales or outside investment. As a Barnsley fan, It seems strange to me, I couldn’t imagine my club doing this, I would have thought you’d have gone down the road of increasing each players salary steadily as you re-sign/sign them rather than going for the big swing straight away. Don’t get me wrong I’d expect you to be pulling out all the stops in a couple of seasons time to keep your better players, as we’ve done with Mowatt & Woodrow in the past few seasons, but to be signing new players on them wages doesn’t seem the norm for clubs with our revenue streams.

 

[Ccfcisparks]

It’s not laughable, as much as it’s mind blowing. You’re a newly promoted club, who don’t have their own stadium in their own city, and therefor a substantial amount of Matchday revenue is missing, even before the effects of covid-19 come into play, in the middle of a global pandemic your club are able to be offering out contacts of 10k a week with out any significant player sales or outside investment. As a Barnsley It seems strange to me, I couldn’t imagine my club doing this, I would have thought you’d have gone down the road of increasing each players salary steadily as you re-sign/sign them rather than going for the big swing straight away. Don’t get me wrong I’d expect you to be pulling out all the stops in a couple of seasons time to keep your better players, as we’ve done with Mowatt & Woodrow in the past few seasons, but to be signing new players on them wages doesn’t seem the norm for clubs with our revenue streams.

Its cause we are fookin massive

 

[Frostie]

It’s not laughable, as much as it’s mind blowing. You’re a newly promoted club, who don’t have their own stadium in their own city, and therefor a substantial amount of Matchday revenue is missing, even before the effects of covid-19 come into play, in the middle of a global pandemic your club are able to be offering out contacts of 10k a week with out any significant player sales or outside investment. As a Barnsley It seems strange to me, I couldn’t imagine my club doing this, I would have thought you’d have gone down the road of increasing each players salary steadily as you re-sign/sign them rather than going for the big swing straight away. Don’t get me wrong I’d expect you to be pulling out all the stops in a couple of seasons time to keep your better players, as we’ve done with Mowatt & Woodrow in the past few seasons, but to be signing new players on them wages doesn’t seem the norm for clubs with our revenue streams.

He is a huge asset on a free transfer so not at all surprising.
3 year deal at £10k p/w is only just over a £1.5m outlay - you'd spend more than that purely on a transfer fee usually.

 

[Barnsley]

Its cause we are fookin massive

So are Shitfield Wensdeh, but the last time they sold a player for decent money, they gave him 10p so he could phone his mum and tell her.

He is a huge asset on a free transfer so not at all surprising.
3 year deal at £10k p/w is only just over a £1.5m outlay - you'd spend more than that purely on a transfer fee usually.

Makes sense ish, but your setting the bar pretty high, for when others are due a new contract. I wouldn’t imagine you’d be able to have many players on them kind of wages with the money your club will be generating.

 

[Frostie]

So are Shitfield Wensdeh,


Makes sense ish, but your setting the bar pretty high, for when others are due a new contract. I wouldn’t imagine you’d be able to have many players on them kind of wages with the money your club will be generating.

No, but we'll go for gradual improvement year on year & our model is to progress our own or buy undervalued elsewhere to develop & sell on. These kind of players won't typically command the higher wages.

We could sell O'Hare tomorrow for far more than our outlay over his entire 3 year deal would be.

 

[Liquid Gold]

So are Shitfield Wensdeh, but the last time they sold a player for decent money, they gave him 10p so he could phone his mum and tell her.


Makes sense ish, but your setting the bar pretty high, for when others are due a new contract. I wouldn’t imagine you’d be able to have many players on them kind of wages with the money your club will be generating.

The difference between us and most other clubs is that the income we're generating has probably gone up rather than plummeted. We we're getting by on crowds of a few thousand, mostly season ticket holders, at St Andrews. We've sold the same number of season tickets this year, will probably be generating significantly more in ifollow passes this year than we would ticket sales last and we've had the TV money dwarfing what we've had before. The sky games alone will have covered O'Hare's wages for the season.

 

[Barnsley]

The difference between us and most other clubs is that the income we're generating has probably gone up rather than plummeted. We we're getting by on crowds of a few thousand, mostly season ticket holders, at St Andrews. We've sold the same number of season tickets this year, will probably be generating significantly more in ifollow passes this year than we would ticket sales last and we've had the TV money dwarfing what we've had before. The sky games alone will have covered O'Hare's wages for the season.

A couple of valid points, that I’d not thought of have already cropped up, this is why I like interacting with fans of different clubs, it broadens your understanding of how other clubs work, thanks for the civil logical responses.

 

[fernandopartridge]

It’s not laughable, as much as it’s mind blowing. You’re a newly promoted club, who don’t have their own stadium in their own city, and therefor a substantial amount of Matchday revenue is missing, even before the effects of covid-19 come into play, in the middle of a global pandemic your club are able to be offering out contacts of 10k a week with out any significant player sales or outside investment. As a Barnsley fan, It seems strange to me, I couldn’t imagine my club doing this, I would have thought you’d have gone down the road of increasing each players salary steadily as you re-sign/sign them rather than going for the big swing straight away. Don’t get me wrong I’d expect you to be pulling out all the stops in a couple of seasons time to keep your better players, as we’ve done with Mowatt & Woodrow in the past few seasons, but to be signing new players on them wages doesn’t seem the norm for clubs with our revenue streams.

It's all based on an unfounded rumour, I doubt very much we're paying anybody 10k per week.

 

[Grendel]

It’s not laughable, as much as it’s mind blowing. You’re a newly promoted club, who don’t have their own stadium in their own city, and therefor a substantial amount of Matchday revenue is missing, even before the effects of covid-19 come into play, in the middle of a global pandemic your club are able to be offering out contacts of 10k a week with out any significant player sales or outside investment. As a Barnsley fan, It seems strange to me, I couldn’t imagine my club doing this, I would have thought you’d have gone down the road of increasing each players salary steadily as you re-sign/sign them rather than going for the big swing straight away. Don’t get me wrong I’d expect you to be pulling out all the stops in a couple of seasons time to keep your better players, as we’ve done with Mowatt & Woodrow in the past few seasons, but to be signing new players on them wages doesn’t seem the norm for clubs with our revenue streams.

Your wage bill in the promotion season was over £7m and you made a £4m operating loss.

Match day revenue was not great around £3.5 million - without promotion then the business was not sustainable other than the balance sheet has fixed assets. We have a high percentage of non match day revenue which I assume is player sale proceeds

 

[Legia Sky Blue]

While I agree O'Hare will be the top end of our pay scale I very much doubt he is on as much as 10k a week, which just seems like someone's guess to me.

 

[mark82]

A couple of valid points, that I’d not thought of have already cropped up, this is why I like interacting with fans of different clubs, it broadens your understanding of how other clubs work, thanks for the civil logical responses.

We also had a significant chunk in transfer fees, firstly from the sale of Sam McCallum last January (reported at £3.5m but who really knows) and also from Callum Wilson sell on clause (about £3m). Only spent a couple of million on actual transfer fees (a lot for us recently).

 

[Barnsley]

Your wage bill in the promotion season was over £7m and you made a £4m operating loss.

Match day revenue was not great around £3.5 million - without promotion then the business was not sustainable other than the balance sheet has fixed assets. We have a high percentage of non match day revenue which I assume is player sale proceeds

We’d just gone down from the championship, your bound to make a loss following relegation, fortunately we went down with a very good squad, and sold 3 or 4 of them for around £8to10M following promotion which balanced the books.

 

[Grendel]

We’d just gone down from the championship, your bound to make a loss following relegation, fortunately we went down with a very good squad, and sold 3 or 4 of them for around £8to10M following promotion which balanced the books.

It didn’t really. The prior accounts showed the only variance actually was the reduction in TV money and a £2.5 million reduction in wages. Those figures you quote must have been on very lengthy terms and conditions as they are not in the accounts

 

[Barnsley]

It didn’t really. The prior accounts showed the only variance actually was the reduction in TV money and a £2.5 million reduction in wages. Those figures you quote must have been on very lengthy terms and conditions as they are not in the accounts

Moore £3m Lindsay£2M and Pinnock £5M were sold when we was promoted, but it’s just guess work as they we’re undisclosed fees, as is the way these days. But I’d be amazed if we let them go for less than£8M as they had decent contracts with us, we also sold Potts and Bradshaw during the league one season for efty fees. And our chairman said at a fans forum we’d balanced the books and reinvest all our transfer income.

 

[robbiethemole]

we don't have any upkeep of the stadium to pay out either, just the rent on it so that is probably a fair chunk saved.

 

[Grendel]

Moore £3m Lindsay£2M and Pinnock £5M were sold when we was promoted, but it’s just guess work as they we’re undisclosed fees, as is the way these days. But I’d be amazed if we let them go for less than£8M as they had decent contracts with us, we also sold Potts and Bradshaw during the league one season for efty fees. And our chairman said at a fans forum we’d balanced the books and reinvest all our transfer income.

Profit on player sales is declared in that year at £3.8m

 

[Barnsley]

Profit on player sales is declared in that year at £3.8m

2019 ?

 

[Grendel]

2019 ?

That’s what it says and there is a £2.4 deficit on player registration so in and outs show a profit of £1.5m

Page 21 of the accounts filed at companies house

 

[Barnsley]

That’s what it says and there is a £2.4 deficit on player registration so in and outs show a profit of £1.5m

Page 21 of the accounts filed at companies house

And what exactly does all this shit mean, is it that our chairman is lying when he says we’re breaking even and running on only the money we generate?.

 

[capel & collindridge]

I'm being boring I know, but wasn't this thread meant to be about the points needed to survive, rather than the pounds needed?

Just wanted to say that I've looked at the last 16 seasons. No team's ever been relegated with 56 pts. 53 points gives you a 90% chance of survival, 49 pts give you a 70% chance. At 43 pts it is still 50%. 42 pts is a 30% chance and 41 pts is 20%.

If you get 40 pts, you've had it. No team in 16 years has stayed up with just 40 points.

Yet. strangely, in the last ten years, just 41 points would have guaranteed your survival on three occasions, and, possibly, in two other seasons as well, on GD. So, for a team on 29 points, with 21 more games to play, winning just 4 and losing 17 might still be good enough. ;-)

Or even winning none might do! As long as we lost only nine and got twelve 0-0 draws.

But just imagine the meltdown on this forum! If anyone still bothered to post.

 

[NortonSkyBlue]

I'm being boring I know, but wasn't this thread meant to be about the points needed to survive, rather than the pounds needed?

Just wanted to say that I've looked at the last 16 seasons. No team's ever been relegated with 56 pts. 53 points gives you a 90% chance of survival, 49 pts give you a 70% chance. At 43 pts it is still 50%. 42 pts is a 30% chance and 41 pts is 20%.

If you get 40 pts, you've had it. No team in 16 years has stayed up with just 40 points.

Yet. strangely, in the last ten years, just 41 points would have guaranteed your survival on three occasions, and, possibly, in two other seasons as well, on GD. So, for a team on 29 points, with 21 more games to play, winning just 4 and losing 17 might still be good enough. ;-)

Or even winning none might do! As long as we lost only nine and got twelve 0-0 draws.

But just imagine the meltdown on this forum! If anyone still bothered to post.

Oh people would post, nothing gets them more animated that a good moan. Interesting post btw and my take on surival points is that as long as we take care of our results we shouldn’t be bothered by how many points it takes. If we focus on Forest or Derby or indeed any of the teams in the mix then It will be to detriment of ourselves. As Barnsley found last year you can be dead and buried but events outside of your control can you.

 

[Sky Blue Harry H]

I think Sheff Wed have just put another nail on their relegation coffin, as they've not paid their players in full - again. Their fans are not happy about the shenanigans

 

[Barnsley]

I think Sheff Wed have just put another nail on their relegation coffin, as they've not paid their players in full - again. Their fans are not happy about the shenanigans

They were lapping it up, when they were taking our best player and paying him 18 grand a week, and signing players for outrageous transfer fees, they deserve everything they’re getting and a lot worse.

 

[shmmeee]

We’ve picked up 27pts from 13 games, against the 12 teams below us.

 

[Barnsley]

Maybe not but now you know pal .

 

[Skybluemichael]

And what exactly does all this shit mean, is it that our chairman is lying when he says we’re breaking even and running on only the money we generate?.

Don’t you have an accounts thread every year on your forum, with a resident accountant explaining it to everyone