The EU: In, out, shake it all about.... (38 Viewers)

[skybluetony176]

Yeah, it really reflects well that the EU are trying to make it as difficult as possible for trade between the UK/NI (as they are at other borders) in the middle of a pandemic.

While to date we appear to be trying to protect the GFA and work within the agreement (and refusing calls to breach protocol) as well as being flexible with EU exporters, we saw on Friday how much the EU really cares about Ireland and the GFA when it invoked article 16 without even a call to the Irish or UK/NI governments.

I try to avoid this thread now because if I start writing I probably won’t be able to stop !!! All I would say though is that if people really can’t see what a protectionist, bureaucratic bully the EU is after last week, there is little point in even debating.

If people really want to still be a part of that, that’s their call but maybe now at least accept why many dont (I say that as someone who was borderline Remain/Leave right up to the vote)....I’m not convinced the EU making it as difficult as possible to trade with them will change many minds either.

This is Boris’ deal Steve. It’s shit, just like reality always was going to be.

The other issues at other ports according to a bloke I heard on the radio the other week are as much down to the vote at the beginning of December on standards when the Tories tell us on one hand that we’re going to have the best standards in the world and then on the other hand won’t commit to those “best standards in the world” being at least as high as EU standards on farm and fishing goods. A lot of these issues have been caused by that one vote and it’s still within Boris’ gift to remedy that. Unless of course the “highest standards in the world” line is bullshit. Which of course it obviously is.

You all know what you voted for apparently so it’s more than a little disappointing if not at all surprising that many people are unwilling to take ownership of their vote and continue to blame the EU.

 

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[CCFCSteve]

This is Boris’ deal Steve. It’s shit, just like reality always was going to be.

The other issues at other ports according to a bloke I heard on the radio the other week are as much down to the vote at the beginning of December on standards when the Tories tell us on one hand that we’re going to have the best standards in the world and then on the other hand won’t commit to those “best standards in the world” being at least as high as EU standards on farm and fishing goods. A lot of these issues have been caused by that one vote and it’s still within Boris’ gift to remedy that. Unless of course the “highest standards in the world” line is bullshit. Which of course it obviously is.

You all know what you voted for apparently so it’s more than a little disappointing if not at all surprising that many people are unwilling to take ownership of their vote and continue to blame the EU.

Nobody really knew exactly until final agreement was signed but would’ve had a broad idea. I'll happily take ownership. I have done for the last 4-5 years - bear in mind 90% of my mates voted remain.

As long as those voting to remain also take ownership for what the EU actually is as well, that’s fine. As I say, some want to be a part of something like that, I personally don’t but it’s each to their own depending on circumstances, beliefs etc

The EU have indicated that they are intentionally making it difficult at the borders, rather than giving some leeway/flexibility (as we have). Again, it is what it is though. I think it will accelerate a more global focus for many businesses ie if it’s easier to trade with Asia than the EU, then businesses will refocus. There will obviously need to be adequate government support (id divert a chunk of the annual EU payment to support certain exporting sectors, especially small business in the interim)

People questioned, ‘what EU bureaucracy’ ?etc...now we are finding out how difficult it is for the rest of the world to trade with the EU even with a free trade agreement. This hopefully suggests that we have plenty of opportunities to have easier free trading agreements and arrangements with other nations in future. Let’s hope so anyway

Edit - I’d take the point about standards longer term, but let’s be honest, they haven’t changed in four weeks !

 

[CCFCSteve]

This was part of the deal negotiated by this government Steve.
But Johnson lied to the people of NI and now there is what looks like paramilitary activity against Port workers.
This was always going to happen. People have been predicting it from day one.

The fact the EU were quick out of the blocks to threaten triggering article 16 doesn't alter that.
Nor do the actions of our government excuse them for trying to weaponise it.

I really hope it doesn’t happen Clint. I think it’s the last thing anyway wants, whichever way people voted.

Both sides believed this solution would protect peace/GFA, if its not, it needs changing. But also there are certain people/terrorists that will look for any reason to start trouble and they shouldn’t be excused

 

[skybluetony176]

Edit - I’d take the point about standards longer term, but let’s be honest, they haven’t changed in four weeks !

They have on paper and that’s all that counts.

 

[skybluetony176]

People questioned, ‘what EU bureaucracy’ ?etc...now we are finding out how difficult it is for the rest of the world to trade with the EU even with a free trade agreement. This hopefully suggests that we have plenty of opportunities to have easier free trading agreements and arrangements with other nations in future. Let’s hope so anyway

Sorry Steve but that’s just nonsense. Even the Tories have acknowledged this by saying this will give companies the experience to deal with the rest of the world. This is how it is for any country outside the EU trading with any other country outside the EU and trading with the EU as a third country. It is literally all the same thing. The EU’s success was eliminating trading barriers, bureaucracy and red tape within the block allowing free trade within the block in the truest possible sense of the word not the made up free trade Boris and the rest sold Brexit on.

 

[CCFCSteve]

Sorry Steve but that’s just nonsense. Even the Tories have acknowledged this by saying this will give companies the experience to deal with the rest of the world. This is how it is for any country outside the EU trading with any other country outside the EU and trading with the EU as a third country. It is literally all the same thing. The EU’s success was eliminating trading barriers, bureaucracy and red tape within the block allowing free trade within the block in the truest possible sense of the word not the made up free trade Boris and the rest sold Brexit on.

I know you’re involved/have a decent knowledge of logistics so accept I could be wrong about the above. I’d heard anecdotally that some businesses were saying its now easier for them to trade with non EU countries than EU countries (due to new post transition EU paperwork) so had assumed (possibly incorrectly !) that elements of the export/import paperwork was or could be streamlined elsewhere.

 

[clint van damme]

Sorry Steve but that’s just nonsense. Even the Tories have acknowledged this by saying this will give companies the experience to deal with the rest of the world. This is how it is for any country outside the EU trading with any other country outside the EU and trading with the EU as a third country. It is literally all the same thing. The EU’s success was eliminating trading barriers, bureaucracy and red tape within the block allowing free trade within the block in the truest possible sense of the word not the made up free trade Boris and the rest sold Brexit on.

 

[shmmeee]

I really hope it doesn’t happen Clint. I think it’s the last thing anyway wants, whichever way people voted.

Both sides believed this solution would protect peace/GFA, if its not, it needs changing. But also there are certain people/terrorists that will look for any reason to start trouble and they shouldn’t be excused

Project Fear

Come on man, this has to be the biggest I told you so ever. People brought up the issue with hard brexit from day one. You either have a border in the sea and inflame loyalists or you have a border in Ireland and inflame Republicans. This isn’t news.

You can’t come out all “yes yes very serious matter” now after driving a fucking JCB through any concerns for the last four years while screaming “project fear!”. The Irish border issue was solved. We chose to reopen it because we thought the hardest of Brexits (which no one wanted in 2016) was more important.

Own your goddamn choices.

 

[CCFCSteve]

Project Fear

Come on man, this has to be the biggest I told you so ever. People brought up the issue with hard brexit from day one. You either have a border in the sea and inflame loyalists or you have a border in Ireland and inflame Republicans. This isn’t news.

You can’t come out all “yes yes very serious matter” now after driving a fucking JCB through any concerns for the last four years while screaming “project fear!”. The Irish border issue was solved. We chose to reopen it because we thought the hardest of Brexits (which no one wanted in 2016) was more important.

Own your goddamn choices.

Not sure anyone claimed the potential fall out of the Ireland/NI border issue was ever project fear.

ps I’d assumed both sides felt what had been agreed would protect the GFA/minimise the risk to peace

 

[skybluetony176]

I know you’re involved/have a decent knowledge of logistics so accept I could be wrong about the above. I’d heard anecdotally that some businesses were saying its now easier for them to trade with non EU countries than EU countries (due to new post transition EU paperwork) so had assumed (possibly incorrectly !) that elements of the export/import paperwork was or could be streamlined elsewhere.

The EU isn’t even the most difficult place to import too from anywhere in the world. A lot of African, Middle East and Gulf states have loads of hoops to jump through. Certificates of Origins mandatory, legalisation of Invoices at the chamber of commerce if you’re lucky and if you’re not at the embassy of the country you’re importing too. All time consuming, all involve duplicating paperwork and stamping and signing and direct cost. Then you can get mandatory third party inspections which is a real joke. Basically companies like BV and Intertec turn up at your factory with a couple of little Hitlers, count boxes, tell you how they could have done it better and then issue you a certificate at a ridiculous cost before you can even book a shipment let alone start paperwork. All this is on top of the standard export paperwork we decided we wanted to do by voting leave.
It’s a joke to suggest that the EU is making life difficult, it’s as easy as export gets unless you’re in the only true free trade organisation in the world, but we’re not. By our own choice.
The problem is the vast majority of U.K. companies and certainly the people working in them have only ever exported into the EU and don’t understand how it works when you’re not in the club. They’re on a massive learning curve and adjustment process. Things will get easier for them as they climatise but this isn’t the EU being difficult by any stretch of the imagination. Our government elected to not have further transition periods for certain sectors and ridiculous short ones for other sectors, it’s our government that’s fucked around making sure we’ll lower standards while claiming we’ll have the highest in the world. If you want to be angry with someone about it get angry with those who sold the lie.

 

[PVA]

Perfectly put:





This is on Johnson. No one else.

We all knew what would happen, but he continued to lie and lie about there being no border when, as above, he quite literally did everything he could to ensure a border in the Irish sea.

 

[skybluetony176]

Perfectly put:





This is on Johnson. No one else.

We all knew what would happen, but he continued to lie and lie about there being no border when, as above, he quite literally did everything he could to ensure a border in the Irish sea.

Gove said in December that Northern Ireland would have the best of both worlds, turns out to be the worst and he’s now calling for renegotiation. Like all those that sold Brexit they’re either charlatans or clueless.

 

[skybluetony176]

Good summary on how we got to this point. John Major called it

 

[fernandopartridge]

Perfectly put:





This is on Johnson. No one else.

We all knew what would happen, but he continued to lie and lie about there being no border when, as above, he quite literally did everything he could to ensure a border in the Irish sea.

Not defending Johnson, but it isn't "all on him". It is all on the Conservative party. I think it's very convenient to blame individuals, particularly FOR the Conservative party.

 

[skybluetony176]

Not defending Johnson, but it isn't "all on him". It is all on the Conservative party. I think it's very convenient to blame individuals, particularly FOR the Conservative party.

Although you’re right in that this is on the current Conservative government this isn’t a KFC scenario where just because the colonel has his face on the bucket it doesn’t mean he’s out back frying the chicken. Boris’ face is on the Brexit and Conservatives bucket and he is out back frying the oven ready deal.

 

[skybluetony176]

Just one point. If Gove, Boris etc do rewrite the NI protocol with the EU does this mean they now know what they voted for or are we just waiting for the next biggest piece of shit to hit the Brexit fan?

 

[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

Although you’re right in that this is on the current Conservative government this isn’t a KFC scenario where just because the colonel has his face on the bucket it doesn’t mean he’s out back frying the chicken. Boris’ face is on the Brexit and Conservatives bucket and he’s out back frying the oven ready deal.

He can even fuck up an oven ready meal by frying it! Mind you it wouldn't actually surprise me if he had absolutely no idea what he was supposed to do with an oven-ready dinner.

Given the monumental fuck-up we've made of most things the vaccine seems to be a plus and I'm half expecting that after vaccinating so many people there becomes statistically significant data that says it is actually less effective in U60's or whatever and we've spent all that time and effort for little reason.

Obv I hope that isn't the case it's that they we've got so much wrong in this it feels like an almost inevitability.

 

[shmmeee]

Not defending Johnson, but it isn't "all on him". It is all on the Conservative party. I think it's very convenient to blame individuals, particularly FOR the Conservative party.

Hmm. Except a large chunk of the Conservative Party had to be either kicked out in a purge or strong armed into support because “Boris is a winner”.

Without Johnson the ERG could be safely ignored as they’ve got the political appeal of a cupboard of dead fish.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Hmm. Except a large chunk of the Conservative Party had to be either kicked out in a purge or strong armed into support because “Boris is a winner”.

Without Johnson the ERG could be safely ignored as they’ve got the political appeal of a cupboard of dead fish.

Should bag the Scottish vote then

 

[fernandopartridge]

Hmm. Except a large chunk of the Conservative Party had to be either kicked out in a purge or strong armed into support because “Boris is a winner”.

Without Johnson the ERG could be safely ignored as they’ve got the political appeal of a cupboard of dead fish.

21 rebels had the whip removed from 317 seats pre 2019. Yes that number made a difference in relation to brexit votes but it isn't a particularly large chunk. There are still the best part of 300+ Tories who completely support the hardest of brexits.

 

[shmmeee]

21 rebels had the whip removed from 317 seats pre 2019. Yes that number made a difference in relation to brexit votes but it isn't a particularly large chunk. There are still the best part of 300+ Tories who completely support the hardest of brexits.

My point is the rebels weren’t the only Tories against hard Brexit, that’s why May won the first leadership election. Johnson only had the support once he looked like beating Corbyn.

More now because of the GE but pre 2019 the headbangers were only 30-40 MPs

 

[skybluetony176]

 

[PVA]

Not defending Johnson, but it isn't "all on him". It is all on the Conservative party. I think it's very convenient to blame individuals, particularly FOR the Conservative party.

But he's the one that fronted it and put his name to it.

He's the one who literally said there would be a border in the Irish sea 'over his dead body'.

He's the one who said "no British Conservative government could or should sign up to any such arrangement."

 

[PVA]

 

[stupot07]

At least we've got our country back...

Fury at Gove as exports to EU slashed by 68% since Brexit

Hauliers say Cabinet Office minister ignored their warnings, amid fears that worse is to come with introduction of import checks in July

www.theguardian.com

Sent from my SM-G965F using Tapatalk

 

[skybluetony176]

68% drop in exports.

 

[clint van damme]

I can believe the claim that some of this is teething problems but how long do they expect them to go on?
I know someone who is working at one of the inland ports set up in Kent for HRMC. They've been given a 2 year contract, that's a long time and a lot of potential damage to the economy for teething problems.

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

At least we've got our country back...

Fury at Gove as exports to EU slashed by 68% since Brexit

Hauliers say Cabinet Office minister ignored their warnings, amid fears that worse is to come with introduction of import checks in July

www.theguardian.com

Sent from my SM-G965F using Tapatalk

Dont know why it’s mainly down to brexit when we’re also in a global pandemic

 

[fernandopartridge]

68% drop in exports.

What's the baseline? Not saying this isn't a disaster but 68% compared with when?

 

[clint van damme]

What's the baseline? Not saying this isn't a disaster but 68% compared with when?

January last year to this.

 

[skybluetony176]

What's the baseline? Not saying this isn't a disaster but 68% compared with when?

January last year.

 

[skybluetony176]

I can believe the claim that some of this is teething problems but how long do they expect them to go on?
I know someone who is working at one of the inland ports set up in Kent for HRMC. They've been given a 2 year contract, that's a long time and a lot of potential damage to the economy for teething problems.

Apparently we only have a fifth of the customs officers we need to deal with Brexit red tape, so chances are he’ll be there for more than his current contract. I think the lack of officers is the largest single issue, it also been exacerbated by the extra officers that they have recruited have no experience. They’ve been telling us to get ready and not done it themselves. Of course a lot of this red tape was avoidable but the government didn’t want to commit to minimum standards.

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

Apparently we only have a fifth of the customs officers we need to deal with Brexit red tape, so chances are he’ll be there for more than his current contract. I think the lack of officers is the largest single issue, it also been exacerbated by the extra officers that they have recruited have no experience. They’ve been telling us to get ready and not done it themselves. Of course a lot of this red tape was avoidable but the government didn’t want to commit to minimum standards.

And hmrc has never been fully resourced

 

[skybluetony176]

And hmrc has never been fully resourced

Even less so after 10 years of austerity.

 

[Deleted member 5849]

January last year to this.

Does beg the question when an appropriate comparison is, mind you. March, April last year were a total shit-show whereas now they're functioning to a degree, so you'd expect an increase in exports then but, that'd be despite of Brexit rather than because of. Clearly Jan last year to this isn'ta fair comparison, either.

The pandemic's come at an ideal time for all this(!)