Do you want to discuss boring politics? (181 Viewers)

[fatso]

Whereas I've always thought communism was totally and utterly unworkable. Even socialism I thought had massive flaws in the theory. Actually took me the longest to work out the flaws with capitalism, but once you see them you can't unsee them.

The one common denominator that causes all of these political ideologies to fail is human greed.

 

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[Brighton Sky Blue]

Hartlepool goes Conservative.

7,000 vote majority delivered by modern science

 

[clint van damme]

Where does Starmer go from here?

 

[fernandopartridge]

What does this shit even mean?

We’ve said all along the north-east and the Midlands would be difficult. We also said the places declaring Thursday would be particularly difficult.

But, the message from voters is clear and we have heard it. Labour has not yet changed nearly enough for voters to place their trust in us.

We understand that. We are listening. And we will now redouble our efforts.

Labour must now accelerate the programme of change in our party, to win back the trust and faith of working people across Britain.

People don’t want to hear excuses. Keir has said he will take responsibility for these results – and he will take responsibility for fixing it and changing the Labour party for the better.

 

[Deleted member 4439]

Momentum saying its proof that their message was better

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Where does Starmer go from here?

For a long walk off a short pier I hope, I’m pretty disgusted by the results and only a fraction are in yet.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Anyone else noticed that the Tory ploy of ‘rewarding’ places that vote for them while ignoring the ones that don’t seems to go contrary to the idea that people not voting for you should lead to the opposite effect?

 

[Deleted member 5849]

Where does Starmer go from here?

Back down the M1?

 

[Ian1779]

Where does Starmer go from here?

Well he’s got two choices IMO. He either starts to accept that there is a ‘left’ that he should embrace and bring into the Labour fold properly - there are Green councillors taking Labour seats. Or he ignores what’s staring him in the face and entrenches further right.

 

[fatso]

What does this shit even mean?

I'm hoping it means that the party has finally woken up and realised that it absolutely has to purge itself of the hard core socialist left if it ever wants to be taken seriously as a viable political party.
Kinnock had to do it with the militant tendency, and now Starmer has to do it with momentum.
If he doesnt, there will be generations who grow up knowing nothing other than a Tory government.

 

[shmmeee]

Again, long terms trends, just delivered Brexit, smashing the vaccine, popular PM. Possibly the toughest test we’ve faced since the 80s of not before.

That said, something needs to change. I’m just not sure what strategy works, or how you turn around public image of Labour. It ain’t going to happen overnight in either case.

 

[shmmeee]

Feels very much like Labour are a decade or more from power. Very concerning that we’ve got climate deniers and frauds in for the most important decade for the climate. Really hope we can survive this. Not looking forward to my kids future at all.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

I'm hoping it means that the party has finally woken up and realised that it absolutely has to purge itself of the hard core socialist left if it ever wants to be taken seriously as a viable political party.
Kinnock had to do it with the militant tendency, and now Starmer has to do it with momentum.
If he doesnt, there will be generations who grow up knowing nothing other than a Tory government.

What on Earth has it got to do with the militant hardcore left? Does Starmer need to laugh harder at teachers next time?

 

[Ian1779]

I'm hoping it means that the party has finally woken up and realised that it absolutely has to purge itself of the hard core socialist left if it ever wants to be taken seriously as a viable political party.
Kinnock had to do it with the militant tendency, and now Starmer has to do it with momentum.
If he doesnt, there will be generations who grow up knowing nothing other than a Tory government.

This ‘hard left’ bollocks is tiring. Either they are mass voting block that will shape Labour vote share, or they are a insignificant echo chamber of fantasy ideas. People can’t keep switching between the two to suit this weeks argument.

 

[shmmeee]

I'm hoping it means that the party has finally woken up and realised that it absolutely has to purge itself of the hard core socialist left if it ever wants to be taken seriously as a viable political party.
Kinnock had to do it with the militant tendency, and now Starmer has to do it with momentum.
If he doesnt, there will be generations who grow up knowing nothing other than a Tory government.

Send them all to the greens where student politics belongs.

 

[shmmeee]

What on Earth has it got to do with the militant hardcore left? Does Starmer need to laugh harder at teachers next time?

Honestly mate, do you not think perhaps you’re overestimating the impact that had outside the teaching profession perhaps?

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Send them all to the greens where student politics belongs.

At local level here they actually do stuff

 

[Ian1779]

so trying to out-Tory the Tories is the master plan?

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Honestly mate, do you not think perhaps you’re overestimating the impact that had outside the teaching profession perhaps?

I’m not saying it had any impact nationally at all. Just it seriously pissed me off.

 

[shmmeee]

This ‘hard left’ bollocks is tiring. Either they are mass voting block that will shape Labour vote share, or they are a insignificant echo chamber of fantasy ideas. People can’t keep switching between the two to suit this weeks argument.

They’re about 15% of the electorate concentrated in Labour strongholds is what they are. They’re electorally insignificant sadly.

 

[fatso]

What on Earth has it got to do with the militant hardcore left? Does Starmer need to laugh harder at teachers next time?

I bet you honestly cant understand why labour are failing can you.
I bet your genuinely suprised by today's results.

 

[shmmeee]

so trying to out-Tory the Tories is the master plan?

If you mean “try and win elections not philosophical arguments online” then yes please.

We live in a democracy. No matter what you want the electorate to think we’ve got to work with what they do and right now they think we’re patronising morons who hate them. It’s fuck all to do with economics.

 

[Deleted member 4439]

I'm hoping it means that the party has finally woken up and realised that it absolutely has to purge itself of the hard core socialist left if it ever wants to be taken seriously as a viable political party.
Kinnock had to do it with the militant tendency, and now Starmer has to do it with momentum.
If he doesnt, there will be generations who grow up knowing nothing other than a Tory government.

I totally agree with the sentiment, but I'm wondering whether the description of 'the socialist left' any longer rings true. I don't quite know what the term is for a combination of anarchi and identity policies, but I'm not sure it's socialism.

 

[shmmeee]

I totally agree with the sentiment, but I'm wondering whether the description of 'the socialist left' any longer rings true. I don't quite know what the term is for a combination of anarchi and identity policies, but I'm not sure it's socialism.

No ID Pol is as far from a class based analysis as you can get. It’s all about celebrating the individual.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

I bet you honestly cant understand why labour are failing can you.
I bet your genuinely suprised by today's results.

I don’t know if you saw but I didn’t vote Labour yesterday...

 

[Ian1779]

They’re about 15% of the electorate concentrated in Labour strongholds is what they are. They’re electorally insignificant sadly.

They may be insignificant in some areas yes - but in others it will be difference between a Labour hold and someone else’s gain.

 

[shmmeee]

They may be insignificant in some areas yes - but in others it will be difference between a Labour hold and someone else’s gain.

But to keep them you’ve got to jettison the largest ideological block of voters in the socially conservative left. Then you’ve got to pivot to the Lib Dem’s and soft Tories and you really won’t like that.

 

[Skybluefaz]

Not even parody.

 

[shmmeee]

Not even parody.

It’s fucking Corbyn all over but most people actually like this one.

When does the shit poetry and paintings start?

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

But to keep them you’ve got to jettison the largest ideological block of voters in the socially conservative left. Then you’ve got to pivot to the Lib Dem’s and soft Tories and you really won’t like that.

Well Labour are losing all of them pretty evenly at least.

 

[Ian1779]

If you mean “try and win elections not philosophical arguments online” then yes please.

We live in a democracy. No matter what you want the electorate to think we’ve got to work with what they do and right now they think we’re patronising morons who hate them. It’s fuck all to do with economics.

That’s not what I mean and you know it. Of course take note of a party machine that always manages to coalesce at the right time, but in terms of general strategy are we going to abandon green policies and new ideas for a post-Covid world for more flag waving and banishing more foreigners?

 

[Ian1779]

But to keep them you’ve got to jettison the largest ideological block of voters in the socially conservative left. Then you’ve got to pivot to the Lib Dem’s and soft Tories and you really won’t like that.

Why do you? Are you telling me that Starmer can’t deliver something similar to 2017 and attain a 40% vote share at the very least.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

That’s not what I mean and you know it. Of course take note of a party machine that always manages to coalesce at the right time, but in terms of general strategy are we going to abandon green policies and new ideas for a post-Covid world for more flag waving and banishing more foreigners?

Probably. Who cares at this point, it’s going to be a permanent Tory state where the objectively right ideas get laughed at and crap gets rewarded.

 

[shmmeee]

That’s not what I mean and you know it. Of course take note of a party machine that always manages to coalesce at the right time, but in terms of general strategy are we going to abandon green policies and new ideas for a post-Covid world for more flag waving and banishing more foreigners?

Green policy is popular. That’s why the Tories had to pretend they cared. Immigration concerns are way down.

It’s the basics of getting elected and none of it is anti Labour values:

- Tough on crime
- Fund the NHS/Police/Schools
- Love the country and its people

None of that requires jettisoning left wing politics, but sadly in 2021 it means distancing yourself from a lot of “left wing” people.

No one will vote for a bunch of condescending arseholes who hate you and are constantly negative.

 

[shmmeee]

Why do you? Are you telling me that Starmer can’t deliver something similar to 2017 and attain a 40% vote share at the very least.

OMG 2017 WAS A FUCKING ANOMOLY STIP TRYING TO MAKE 2017 HAPPEN ITS NEVER HAPPENING AGAIN!!

This is so frustrating. 2017 brought together a coalition of people that will never come together again and went against the worse Tory campaign ever. And still lost. It had nothing to do with policy nothing. It was a rerun of the referendum and we got residual old Labour leave votes and pissed off Tories and furious Remainers and the Corbynites and the Corbyn hating left to hold their nose and vote to try and stop Brexit.