Coronavirus Thread (Off Topic, Politics) (27 Viewers)

[Sick Boy]

Tracking covid-19 excess deaths across countries

In many parts of the world, official death tolls undercount the total number of fatalities

www.economist.com

This is a good excess deaths table to compare with other nations....certainly gives you a clearer picture of those nations who have massively under-reported covid deaths.....

....also puts the "UK has worse death rate in the world" argument firmly to bed.....


EDIT: Grendels just posted the same table above.

The Russian one is (unsurprisingly) incredible.

 

---

[jimmyhillsfanclub]

To be fair, @Earlsdon_Skyblue1 is only trying to make the point that any acute risk of covid19 for a very large section of society is miniscule.......almost zero.....

.....but to be fair to everyone else, his point of view is sometimes delivered in such a way as to suggest the large section of society who are at increased risk should just suck it up....

 

[Grendel]

To be fair, @Earlsdon_Skyblue1 is only trying to make the point that any acute risk of covid19 for a very large section of society is miniscule.......almost zero.....

.....but to be fair to everyone else, his point of view is sometimes delivered in such a way as to suggest the large section of society who are at increased risk should just suck it up....

It clouds the issue that deaths were not the actual factor in lockdown and vaccine strategy

It was to prevent a huge surge in NHS admissions. As I stated in an earlier post The local news are doing rounds in hospitals and the issue still exists. ICU is still largely taken up by Covid patients, mostly unvaccinated and many are much younger than before

The danger is societies will think things are finished and the vaccine and booster policies will be harder to get take up of

 

[shmmeee]

It clouds the issue that deaths were not the actual factor in lockdown and vaccine strategy

It was to prevent a huge surge in NHS admissions. As I stated in an earlier post The local news are doing rounds in hospitals and the issue still exists. ICU is still largely taken up by Covid patients, mostly unvaccinated and many are much younger than before

The danger is societies will think things are finished and the vaccine and booster policies will be harder to get take up of

This. The focus on deaths always missed the point which is that we need a functioning healthcare system.

Whether ESB means it or not I don’t know but all of this stuff (death certificates, random ex doctors, scaremongering about vaccines, “with covid or of covid”) boils down to “the pandemic isn’t a problem and I know better than all world governments and their scientific advisors”. Which is…confident to say the least. Countries don’t tank their economy and piss people off without good reason.

 

[Earlsdon_Skyblue1]

You compared the treatment of unvaccinated people in Austria to the holocaust. The other day you made out a country culling hamsters was an example of this pandemic bringing out the worst in people despite being British and presumably being aware of the culling of cattle during the foot and mouth outbreak in the UK. Its pretty standard practice.
Bit hypocritical to be calling people emotive.

No, your statement is incorrect, and once again overly dramatic, probably to avoid talking about the facts. I never used the word holocaust whatsoever. I compared the actions of the government in Austria to the early states of what was going on pre-WW2 with separating members of society and by forcing medical treatments. That is not a conspiracy, it has happened.

You, and some others on here are in this bizarre echo chamber where you act as if you want this thing to carry on. Good news is posted and it is a race to try and find something to counter it, someone says something which goes against that narrative and it is a pile on. It makes me laugh, cause whenever I post on this thread it is always followed by an abundance of notifications from the same people. The same people that think they are above others, but are the most aggressive, throw the most insults, and openly want things like vaccine mandates.

The whole 'lockdown lover' line really triggered many, but all you and certain others have done since that time is post over and over again begging for more restrictions and trying to find the worst in it all. You prove the point.

The true death numbers come out - silence.
The age, BMI, and health conditions of those come out - silence.
Bars open - paddy.
Someone isn't vaccinated - lock them in a basement and charge them for any medical care.

Perspective of this virus has been lost in many ways, and this thread is like a true to life example.

I fail to see what finding people with zero health conditions proves. Most people don’t have zero health conditions. Most people aren’t perfect BMI. Most people aren’t young.

It comes across like you’re saying people deserves to die from covid because they weren’t perfect. 150k people died whether you think they were worthy or not is frankly irrelevant to anything other than how much of a prick you come across.

Again, saying 'you think people deserve to die' is dramatic nonsense. No one has said that, but you know it. You are just trying to use it to strengthen a weak argument.

It's like some want more deaths to try and support their own views or insecurities. If you don't agree you are a 'prick' or don't have 'empathy'. It is fucking strange.

You, and others make all sorts of assumptions about other people's opinions based on their posts but get defensive when it's done to you.

People may not have used the words disposable but they're saying it in a roundabout way.
Theyre entitled to that opinion which is why I don't post much on this thread but the recent restrictions have been far less of a burden on my life than the road works round by the station but if people want to cry about them and ignore everything else then let them crack on.
In the real world my life is pretty much back to normal but I appreciate there's still a dangerous virus doing the rounds.

We can't have a sensible debate about underlying factors and covid because it upsets people. Look at the responses here... No one has said people are expendable based on age, it is a ridiculous comment, but it is just a go to for those that cannot handle the tough conversations.

People are entitled to say they should lock unvaccinated people away and deny them basic life rights, but if you compare that to fascist dictatorships then all of a sudden that is worse than the policy itself. It is very strange.

Not sure what your reference to roadworks is all about to be honest, and in regards to getting defensive, if people were putting words in your mouth that you haven't said I would imagine you would try to correct that too. It isn't the same as a member of this forum posting doom and gloom in every single post for two years and then pretending that they haven't.

 

[shmmeee]

No, your statement is incorrect, and once again overly dramatic, probably to avoid talking about the facts. I never used the word holocaust whatsoever. I compared the actions of the government in Austria to the early states of what was going on pre-WW2 with separating members of society and by forcing medical treatments. That is not a conspiracy, it has happened.

You, and some others on here are in this bizarre echo chamber where you act as if you want this thing to carry on. Good news is posted and it is a race to try and find something to counter it, someone says something which goes against that narrative and it is a pile on. It makes me laugh, cause whenever I post on this thread it is always followed by an abundance of notifications from the same people. The same people that think they are above others, but are the most aggressive, throw the most insults, and openly want things like vaccine mandates.

The whole 'lockdown lover' line really triggered many, but all you and certain others have done since that time is post over and over again begging for more restrictions and trying to find the worst in it all. You prove the point.

The true death numbers come out - silence.
The age, BMI, and health conditions of those come out - silence.
Bars open - paddy.
Someone isn't vaccinated - lock them in a basement and charge them for any medical care.

Perspective of this virus has been lost in many ways, and this thread is like a true to life example.



Again, saying 'you think people deserve to die' is dramatic nonsense. No one has said that, but you know it. You are just trying to use it to strengthen a weak argument.

It's like some want more deaths to try and support their own views or insecurities. If you don't agree you are a 'prick' or don't have 'empathy'. It is fucking strange.



We can't have a sensible debate about underlying factors and covid because it upsets people. Look at the responses here... No one has said people are expendable based on age, it is a ridiculous comment, but it is just a go to for those that cannot handle the tough conversations.

People are entitled to say they should lock unvaccinated people away and deny them basic life rights, but if you compare that to fascist dictatorships then all of a sudden that is worse than the policy itself. It is very strange.

Not sure what your reference to roadworks is all about to be honest, and in regards to getting defensive, if people were putting words in your mouth that you haven't said I would imagine you would try to correct that too. It isn't the same as a member of this forum posting doom and gloom in every single post for two years and then pretending that they haven't.

I said that’s how it comes across. I’m trying to give you the benefit of the doubt here, but at some point if it quacks like a duck…

What’s the purpose of your posts? You’ve selected a tiny subset of deaths to prove what exactly? That we shouldn’t have locked down? That covid isn’t a concern on a national level? What are you driving at?

 

[Earlsdon_Skyblue1]

To be fair, @Earlsdon_Skyblue1 is only trying to make the point that any acute risk of covid19 for a very large section of society is miniscule.......almost zero.....

.....but to be fair to everyone else, his point of view is sometimes delivered in such a way as to suggest the large section of society who are at increased risk should just suck it up....

Covid is very serious for a lot of people, and it has ruined not just the lives of those that have suffered from it, but the families of those too.

It has been a fucking hard two years for many, for various reasons, but that shouldn't mean that we cannot have an adult conversation about the facts. The revelation of the government's behaviour in the last few weeks should be enough to provoke those conversations.

 

[Earlsdon_Skyblue1]

I said that’s how it comes across. I’m trying to give you the benefit of the doubt here, but at some point if it quacks like a duck…

What’s the purpose of your posts? You’ve selected a tiny subset of deaths to prove what exactly? That we shouldn’t have locked down? That covid isn’t a concern on a national level? What are you driving at?

You know what my points are, I've made them several times over regarding covid and it's different effects on various demographics.

The death figures got posted and people are acting frustrated because they aren't as high as they previously appeared. It's bloody weird.

 

[shmmeee]

You know what my points are, I've made them several times over regarding covid and it's different effects on various demographics.

The death figures got posted and people are acting frustrated because they aren't as high as they previously appeared. It's bloody weird.

The death figures are still 150k, double the WW2 civilian casualties for reference. It’s the constant attempt to bring that number down by excluding people like you’re Grendel discussing Biamou goals that grates.

The fact is this virus disables economies and health services without government intervention. That’s why every government on the planet from authoritarian to liberal from right to left has taken measures. Focusing on Boris Johnson or a tiny subset of data just shows a refusal to accept that fact (not just you here).

 

[Skybluefaz]

You, and some others on here are in this bizarre echo chamber where you act as if you want this thing to carry on.

Do you have any evidence for this whatsoever?

I think Nick was trying to diffuse a bit of the silly stuff on here yesterday and you've waltzed in calling me a lockdown lover. It's weird behaviour. You call other people aggressive but you literrally threatened to track someone down at the football, but you hate bullying of course.

When you are so all over the place no is going to respect what you have to say.

I'll leave it there, you are clearly upset.

 

[Earlsdon_Skyblue1]

The death figures are still 150k, double the WW2 civilian casualties for reference. It’s the constant attempt to bring that number down by excluding people like you’re Grendel discussing Biamou goals that grates.

The fact is this virus disables economies and health services without government intervention. That’s why every government on the planet from authoritarian to liberal from right to left has taken measures. Focusing on Boris Johnson or a tiny subset of data just shows a refusal to accept that fact (not just you here).

150k deaths of covid or with it? It is a different thing. If someone has a heart attack and is dying in hospital but catches covid on the way out, what would you attribute their death to? It is not trying to play it down, it is trying to get a grip on the facts. Countries measure the death rates in different ways. Here in the Netherlands there have been about 18k deaths - even with the population size difference, that is still a massive contrast. Why is that the case? It isn´t just because City Arms stayed open a week longer.

My point about Boris is that whilst people were being told off for going on more than one walk a day, they were having fucking parties. It isn´t right.

 

[shmmeee]

150k deaths of covid or with it? It is a different thing. If someone has a heart attack and is dying in hospital but catches covid on the way out, what would you attribute their death to? It is not trying to play it down, it is trying to get a grip on the facts. Countries measure the death rates in different ways. Here in the Netherlands there have been about 18k deaths - even with the population size difference, that is still a massive contrast. Why is that the case? It isn´t just because City Arms stayed open a week longer.

My point about Boris is that whilst people were being told off for going on more than one walk a day, they were having fucking parties. It isn´t right.

80%+ of death certificates have covid as the main cause. Even if I accepted your premise we’re still at 120k.

And yes, Boris is a nob who believes every conspiracy theory going and thinks rules don’t apply to him. Of course he didn’t take it seriously.

 

[Earlsdon_Skyblue1]

Do you have any evidence for this whatsoever?

I think Nick was trying to diffuse a bit of the silly stuff on here yesterday and you've waltzed in calling me a lockdown lover. It's weird behaviour. You call other people aggressive but you literrally threatened to track someone down at the football, but you hate bullying of course.

When you are so all over the place no is going to respect what you have to say.

I'll leave it there, you are clearly upset.

You are all over the place here. Bringing things in from other threads to support a seriously weak and dying argument.

I also did not call you a lockdown lover, so that is your second incorrect statement in two posts. It is just a measure to avoid talking about the real facts, because you cannot handle them.

In regards to the spat with US, that has nothing to do with this and was a reaction (admittedly excessive) to some pretty unfair comments there. It is not bullying to stand up for yourself when you are being smeared. The difference is there, I did actually apologise, something that you almost never see on here. Certainly when you are being a wanker, I have never seen you once try and make amends or hold your hands up. That says more about you and your insecurities.

´I´ll leave it there´. Of course you will, you do not have any argument.

 

[Earlsdon_Skyblue1]

80%+ of death certificates have covid as the main cause. Even if I accepted your premise we’re still at 120k.

And yes, Boris is a nob who believes every conspiracy theory going and thinks rules don’t apply to him. Of course he didn’t take it seriously.

This is part of the debate though, what is on the death certificates has not necessarily been correct.

For arguments sake, let´s agree on 120k for the moment. Why is that higher in the UK than anywhere else?

 

[shmmeee]

This is part of the debate though, what is on the death certificates has not necessarily been correct.

For arguments sake, let´s agree on 120k for the moment. Why is that higher in the UK than anywhere else?

Likely our reluctance to lockdown especially in the first wave when mortality was higher.

When you say what’s on the death certificate isn’t correct what you’re actually doing is claiming that a significant number of healthcare professionals either don’t know better than an internet rando or are in on a conspiracy and that’s where you lose me I’m afraid.

This is always the issue with conspiracy theories: they rely on huge numbers of people acting together or being mistaken at the same time which almost never happens.

 

[clint van damme]

No, your statement is incorrect, and once again overly dramatic, probably to avoid talking about the facts. I never used the word holocaust whatsoever. I compared the actions of the government in Austria to the early states of what was going on pre-WW2 with separating members of society and by forcing medical treatments. That is not a conspiracy, it has happened.

You, and some others on here are in this bizarre echo chamber where you act as if you want this thing to carry on. Good news is posted and it is a race to try and find something to counter it, someone says something which goes against that narrative and it is a pile on. It makes me laugh, cause whenever I post on this thread it is always followed by an abundance of notifications from the same people. The same people that think they are above others, but are the most aggressive, throw the most insults, and openly want things like vaccine mandates.

The whole 'lockdown lover' line really triggered many, but all you and certain others have done since that time is post over and over again begging for more restrictions and trying to find the worst in it all. You prove the point.

The true death numbers come out - silence.
The age, BMI, and health conditions of those come out - silence.
Bars open - paddy.
Someone isn't vaccinated - lock them in a basement and charge them for any medical care.

Perspective of this virus has been lost in many ways, and this thread is like a true to life example.



Again, saying 'you think people deserve to die' is dramatic nonsense. No one has said that, but you know it. You are just trying to use it to strengthen a weak argument.

It's like some want more deaths to try and support their own views or insecurities. If you don't agree you are a 'prick' or don't have 'empathy'. It is fucking strange.



We can't have a sensible debate about underlying factors and covid because it upsets people. Look at the responses here... No one has said people are expendable based on age, it is a ridiculous comment, but it is just a go to for those that cannot handle the tough conversations.

People are entitled to say they should lock unvaccinated people away and deny them basic life rights, but if you compare that to fascist dictatorships then all of a sudden that is worse than the policy itself. It is very strange.

Not sure what your reference to roadworks is all about to be honest, and in regards to getting defensive, if people were putting words in your mouth that you haven't said I would imagine you would try to correct that too. It isn't the same as a member of this forum posting doom and gloom in every single post for two years and then pretending that they haven't.

People have definitely implied that people are expendable, that's undeniable. You haven't been reading the thread properly if you think it's not true.

I've not once advocated locking the unvacinnated away or compulsory vaccinations.

The roadworks comments were about inconvenience to daily life, of which we have been experiencing very little but the way some people bleat on you'd think we were living in North Korea, (I appreciate you were in lockdown so you were under huge restrictions), but that wasn't the case here.

 

[Earlsdon_Skyblue1]

Likely our reluctance to lockdown especially in the first wave when mortality was higher.

When you say what’s on the death certificate isn’t correct what you’re actually doing is claiming that a significant number of healthcare professionals either don’t know better than an internet rando or are in on a conspiracy and that’s where you lose me I’m afraid.

This is always the issue with conspiracy theories: they rely on huge numbers of people acting together or being mistaken at the same time which almost never happens.

What conspiracy? How were they measuring deaths? Within 28 days of a positive test wasn´t it? I don´t think other countries were doing that.

Not sure how you have got to the conclusion that is a conspiracy.

 

[Deleted member 5849]

I've got a cunning proposition. Me, @Nick , @Earlsdon_Skyblue1 all stop posting in this thread, first to break it pays £40, split 50/50 between charities of the others' choice. If nobody breaks it by 21/01/2023, I'll pay the £40.

What do you reckon, both of you? Consider this my last post in the thread... all being well.

 

[Earlsdon_Skyblue1]

I've got a cunning proposition. Me, @Nick , @Earlsdon_Skyblue1 all stop posting in this thread, first to break it pays £40, split 50/50 between charities of the others' choice. If nobody breaks it by 21/01/2023, I'll pay the £40.

What do you reckon, both of you? Consider this my last post in the thread... all being well.

You know what, I actually think you have a great idea there. Something for charity is always good too.

Normally I would want to go with an animal charity, but with the spirit of this thread, perhaps we could agree on a charity related to covid support or something? Not sure what organisations are set up for that to be honest, but I am sure someone on here can point us in the right direction.

Edit: I´m in anyway. Will take a hiatus from this thread. Best wishes to all and their families in the coming months.

 

[SBT]

António Horta-Osório attended Euros final during London Covid breach

Banker who quit as Credit Suisse chair over Wimbledon trip watched Wembley match the same day

www.ft.com

Chairman of Credit Suisse busted quarantine and managed to go to both the Wimbledon final, and the Euros final in the same day!

His supposed defense - and this is not a joke - is that he believed it was a work event

 

[SBT]

You know what, I actually think you have a great idea there. Something for charity is always good too.

Normally I would want to go with an animal charity, but with the spirit of this thread, perhaps we could agree on a charity related to covid support or something? Not sure what organisations are set up for that to be honest, but I am sure someone on here can point us in the right direction.

I believe you now owe 40 quid

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

You know what, I actually think you have a great idea there. Something for charity is always good too.

Normally I would want to go with an animal charity, but with the spirit of this thread, perhaps we could agree on a charity related to covid support or something? Not sure what organisations are set up for that to be honest, but I am sure someone on here can point us in the right direction.

What is the point of bloody animal charities ffs

 

[Otis]

BBC News - American Airlines plane turns around mid-flight over mask row

American Airlines plane turns around mid-flight over mask row

An American Airlines plane bound for London turns around because a passenger refused to wear a mask.

www.bbc.co.uk

I really don't get it. I know turning the plane round is extreme, but why can't people just obey the rules? What is the problem, whether you want to wear a mask or not?

You go to a night club and if they say no jeans, it's no jeans. This mask rule is the rule of the airline. Seems some people seem determined to make a point.

If I went to a mosque and they said the requirement was to take my shoes off, I would take my shoes off. I actually remember going to an orthodox church in Russia once and I had a few rings on my fingers and a priest or equivalent, came rushing up to me gesticulating to remove my rings. I didn't understand why, but took them off all the same.

If the new instruction now is that you don't have to wear a mask, but I go to ASDA and they say a mask is required in their stores, I would put a mask on.

 

[chiefdave]

Worth a look at this.

source: COVID-19 deaths and autopsies Feb 2020 to Dec 2021 - Office for National Statistics
View attachment 23578

Deaths from COVID-19 with no other underlying causes - Office for National Statistics

I'm not sure either of those Illustrate what you think they do.

The 'solely by covid' one is clearly a question designed to gain a certain repose. Most people don't die from a single specific cause of death unless they drop down dead on the spot. If you've had anyone in your family with something like cancer you'll know that while cancer is likely to be mentioned on the death certificate it isn't usually listed as the sole cause of death which will be something like organ failure but we all accept that its still a cancer death. Similarly the majority of people with covid will actually die of something like pneumonia but the fact is were it not for covid they'd still be alive.

The deaths with no underlying causes one is also misleading as having an underlying cause doesn't necessarily mean it is a contributing factor to your death. Back at the start of this I saw figures from the ONS which included as underlying causes things like mental health conditions and broken bones! You also have to consider the sheer number of people in the UK that have an underlying condition. 63% of people are overweight for a start, 12% have asthma, over 25% have high blood pressure, the list goes on.

 

[chiefdave]

What conspiracy? How were they measuring deaths? Within 28 days of a positive test wasn´t it? I don´t think other countries were doing that.

We use deaths within 28 days of a positive test as its a stat we can produce relatively quickly, and even then we have issues with lag when it comes to making decisions.

The cause of death stats take a lot longer to produce and aren't available until weeks or even months later. if you want to use them then every time there's a new variant we'll have to lockdown for months until we've got all the data.

Incidentally when the cause of death stats do eventually appear they show 'within 28 days' stats to be a fairly reliable indicator.

 

[Grendel]

We use deaths within 28 days of a positive test as its a stat we can produce relatively quickly, and even then we have issues with lag when it comes to making decisions.

The cause of death stats take a lot longer to produce and aren't available until weeks or even months later. if you want to use them then every time there's a new variant we'll have to lockdown for months until we've got all the data.

Incidentally when the cause of death stats do eventually appear they show 'within 28 days' stats to be a fairly reliable indicator.

It doesn't matter anyway the excess deaths is an accurate barometer of COVID deaths across a period of time, what did the 1,000,000 in Russia die of exactly? Boredom of listening to anti vax nonsense or actually COVID?

 

[chiefdave]

It doesn't matter anyway the excess deaths is an accurate barometer of COVID deaths across a period of time, what did the 1,000,000 in Russia die of exactly? Boredom of listening to anti vax nonsense or actually COVID?

That's what nobody seems able to answer. If not covid what is causing all these excess deaths in every country around the world?

 

[Grendel]

What conspiracy? How were they measuring deaths? Within 28 days of a positive test wasn´t it? I don´t think other countries were doing that.

Not sure how you have got to the conclusion that is a conspiracy.

Well you are suggesting pretty much every government in the world is over emphasising Covid deaths..,

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

It’s a pity now we can’t hear what ESB wants us to do instead of vaccination programs. Shame, I’ll miss his insight.

 

[Kieranp96]

It's difficult going over the same old ground but the scope of comorbidities is very broad, Britain is not a healthy country and a lot of people have them

Yep, same with the usa, tbh the whole world has a obisity problem food is to good but bad for you, i am in that problem but been teying ro fix it slowly.

 

[Kieranp96]

I'm not sure either of those Illustrate what you think they do.

The 'solely by covid' one is clearly a question designed to gain a certain repose. Most people don't die from a single specific cause of death unless they drop down dead on the spot. If you've had anyone in your family with something like cancer you'll know that while cancer is likely to be mentioned on the death certificate it isn't usually listed as the sole cause of death which will be something like organ failure but we all accept that its still a cancer death. Similarly the majority of people with covid will actually die of something like pneumonia but the fact is were it not for covid they'd still be alive.

The deaths with no underlying causes one is also misleading as having an underlying cause doesn't necessarily mean it is a contributing factor to your death. Back at the start of this I saw figures from the ONS which included as underlying causes things like mental health conditions and broken bones! You also have to consider the sheer number of people in the UK that have an underlying condition. 63% of people are overweight for a start, 12% have asthma, over 25% have high blood pressure, the list goes on.

I understood it i was simply putting it out there.

 

[Kieranp96]

It doesn’t as without COVID people would not have died

The excess number of deaths is the generally accepted measure of the impact of the disease

Tracking covid-19 excess deaths across countries

In many parts of the world, official death tolls undercount the total number of fatalities

www.economist.com

Very few people have one factor in a death certificate

I know , i am just putting it out there,

 

[skybluetony176]

Not really. You are being emotive about facts because you can't handle them.

The response to this stuff being posted is predictable as usual. Either it gets ignored, people try and make it worse than it is, or there is gaslighting (usually in the form of 'well you don't care about old people' or something similar).

Anyone by now who cannot get their head around the reality of these numbers, or the facts related to underlying health conditions, obesity, and age, are either completely stupid, deflecting because they are scared, or quite understandably distressed from a personal situation that has affected them or their family.

Of course I’m being emotive. It’s a human condition. You should be more concerned about the cunts that aren’t emotive. 1 in 2 people in the UK will get some form of cancer in their lifetime. Just try and consider that.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Of course I’m being emotive. It’s a human condition. You should be more concerned about the cunts that aren’t emotive. 1 in 2 people in the UK will get some form of cancer in their lifetime. Just try and consider that.

Main things that bother me

Saying you’ve been jabbed then going on endlessly with anti vax copy pastes

Never giving an alternative solution to the pandemic while criticising the best option we have

Ignoring that large numbers of the vulnerable in hospital weakens the service for everyone else

Personal insults towards other posters while claiming offence elsewhere

The ‘I know more about this than anyone’ stance made while ignoring inconvenient peer reviewed stuff

It’s not the arguments as such just the unwillingness to accept the possibility of being wrong that make this topic as frustrating as it is.

 

[Grendel]

It’s a pity now we can’t hear what ESB wants us to do instead of vaccination programs. Shame, I’ll miss his insight.

Yeah I’m struggling without those words of wisdom