USSR invades Ukraine. (36 Viewers)

[Nick]

Youre going to freak when you find out minutes silences don't bring people back to life!

That's Minute applause

 

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[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

Im sure James O’Brien was calling for increased military spending over recent years . Rather than everything being Brexit and the governments fault he’d be better off just accepting that we are dealing with an unhinged dictator.

The fact is the whole of the West have been naive in the extreme and not just militarily. Ratcheting down our own energy producing capabilities to meet environmental targets* whilst increasing reliance on people like Putin and allowing Russia, China etc to behave how they want when it comes to the environment ?! Maybe Putins not the only madman in office

*I support the targets by the way and do as much as I can on a personal level but seeking to achieve them whilst leaving the world exposed and reliant on dictators ?!! Crazy

With the energy I'm 100% behind investing heavily in renewable resources as much as possible. But pragmatically I know that can't be done overnight and we will have to rely on current forms of energy for a while. But given that I'd rather use our own resources than rely on importing others.

My biggest bugbear in this over the years has been that decisions have been made on the concerns and investments of the few, not what is the sensible (I would argue necessary) decision for everyone and the planet in general to move away from it. We're so much further behind where we should be because of £££.

 

[Deleted member 9744]

That's the key problem here.
If he gets away with Ukraine then nowhere is safe. If he gets a demilitarized Ukraine with a govt of his choosing then pulls his forces out then he's won. Then the thinking has to be why can't I do the same in other countries?
He could start thinking about the likes of Moldova, Estonia & Latvia. Russia can literally over-run Estonia in a day. Is the NATO going to get into a nuclear war over Estonia - a country with a population of just over a million people? Are they going to risk millions of lives for such a small country? Some will say yes but there will be those (maybe in NATO or EU who are geographically or politically far from Estonia) who say hang on is it worth paying the price. NATO Treaty has never been tested.

It also sets a precedent for other states with nuclear weapons. Would China follow through on its rhetoric on Taiwan? Could an increasingly militant India look at some of the territories it has ownership claims on?

UN again shown be an exercise in futility. India abstains because it buys so many weapons from Russia, UAE abstains because it is frightened Russia be significantly increase its supply of weapons etc to Iran.

Depressingly realistic.

 

[SBT]

‘If I can’t have it nobody can’ is my thinking

It's not about him being suicidal. He's a megalomaniac fantasist who believes he will win. When that situation changes and he finally realises he can't, he won't care about the destruction to the planet or other people. If anything his fury at the world for not letting him do what he wants would make it even more likely for him to press the button. As has been said "If I can't have it no-one can"

Basically he's like Hitler but with a huge stock of weapons that could destroy life on this planet before he disappears into his bunker to shoot himself.

This isn’t analysis, this is (quite literally!) the plot of Tenet.

 

[David O'Day]

BBC just had a guy on called Tara’s Kusio who is apparently someone Russian Ukraine expert in The Hague talking about how Putin is in danger of being overthrown in much the same way as Khrushchev. He was siting similarities such as erratic behaviour, detachment from reality etc. Pointing specifically to his decision to invade Ukraine. He believes that Putin and his closest inner circle just don’t understand Ukraine for starters, apparently they truly believed that the Ukrainian people would wave them in throwing flowers at the soldiers feet seeing them as liberators not attackers.

Yep they have seriously underestimated how hard the Ukrainian people would fight

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

Be impossible to watch the game through the cringe

Id love it
Along with us all driving less and not putting the heating on

 

[shmmeee]

Even worse that that, Ukraine were encouraged/agreed to give up their nuclear deterrent in the 90’s. This has left left them further exposed although ‘Putin the nutter’ wasn’t around then.

I understand that we and NATO can’t get involved militarily as it could escalate to WW3 but we should be doing everything in our collective powers to arm Ukraine to help them defend themselves (crazy in a way as there is not a huge difference between that and us getting directly involved).

As I think SBD said, Putins ‘fear’ of having NATO on his doorstep can’t ring true as his actions have just accelerated more NATO troops on his border than ever before and any country not in NATO probably seriously considering joining to help defend themselves against this utter madman

Not sure how accurate but I read they never had control of the nukes and the codes/launch mechanism whatever remained with Russia

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

Be nice to see some sort of support for Ukraine at the match today. Sky News said that the FA have given clubs the go ahead if they so wish.

Marty will walk out

 

[tisza]

BBC just had a guy on called Tara’s Kusio who is apparently someone Russian Ukraine expert in The Hague talking about how Putin is in danger of being overthrown in much the same way as Khrushchev. He was siting similarities such as erratic behaviour, detachment from reality etc. Pointing specifically to his decision to invade Ukraine. He believes that Putin and his closest inner circle just don’t understand Ukraine for starters, apparently they truly believed that the Ukrainian people would wave them in throwing flowers at the soldiers feet seeing them as liberators not attackers.

When you fixate on something you only hear what you want to hear, only see what you want to see.
His fixation on the Ukrainian Govt being "Neo Nazis" etc. Ukrainian Govt is flawed, there is always corruption at the top - no matter which parties are in charge, Nationalistic (not far right) but in many ways mirrors Russian elites - just without a dictator in charge. But several EU Eastern countries are much the same as well.
His belief that large sections of the former Soviet public yearn to be back under Russian control again also way of base.

 

[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

This isn’t analysis, this is (quite literally!) the plot of Tenet.

So you don't think the psychology of the madman with access to the red button matters?

Now, it could be that Putin wouldn't, and his threats over them are just there to stop us acting. But the fact we aren't acting says everything that there is a genuine fear he is mad enough to do it. Look at the reasons we've acted in the Middle east in the past. Like this but on a much smaller scale. But we got involved there, so why aren't we here?

Two reasons:
1. They had resources there that we wanted.
2. We weren't afraid of any comeback/annihalation because we knew their forces weren't equipped to do so.

 

[Jamesimus]

Another nearly 2000 arrests in St Petersburg last night. Is it really the only city with protestors??

A friend who has travelled over there informed me that St.Petersburg is comparably "westernised" and regarded as being a little more tolerant than other cities (some of which my friend would not have been as safe visiting).

I imagine the anti war contingent / dislike for Putin is a little more rife there. This is all anecdotal of course.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

This isn’t analysis, this is (quite literally!) the plot of Tenet.

Well given that nobody can read Putin’s mind of course it’s conjecture

 

[David O'Day]

Marty will walk out

Marcus would boo

 

[Otis]

Another nearly 2000 arrests in St Petersburg last night. Is it really the only city with protestors??

Hope this is true

 

[Grendel]

Hope this is true

A lot of people clearly want to go to Siberia for their holidays

 

[David O'Day]

if russia does in the end take kiev what do they think will happen seems the people won't stop fighting

 

[Otis]

if russia does in the end take kiev what do they think will happen seems the people won't stop fighting

It will turn into a guerilla style defence won't it.

 

[SkyBlue_Bear83]

France have siezed a Russian cargo ship

 

[David O'Day]

It will turn into a guerilla style defence won't it.

yeah house to house fighting, they've already armed a large part of the population

 

[SkyBlue_Bear83]

The Russian embassy in France is seeking explanations from the French authorities over the seizure, Russia's RIA news agency said


What a joke, hope the explanation is telling them to fuck off

 

[CCFCSteve]

Poland refusing to play their WCC against Russia, calling on Sweden and Czech Republic to basically do the same.

Although these steps might not seem significant in the grand scheme of things it will hopefully send a message to the Russian people that what’s happening is not accepted by countries across Europe

Yep they have seriously underestimated how hard the Ukrainian people would fight

Putin obviously didn’t spend his lockdown binge watching Netflix…maybe he should’ve, Winter on fire showed him exactly what to expect. Even if he wins initial battles and takes Kyiv he’ll struggle to win the war long term. That’s why I can’t work what he’s hoping for out of all this, I just don’t think the Ukrainian people will accept Russian rule directly or indirectly

 

[Grendel]

The Russian embassy in France is seeking explanations from the French authorities over the seizure, Russia's RIA news agency said


What a joke, hope the explanation is telling them to fuck off

I’m sure Mr Macron will puff his chest out while still taking gas reserves and refusing changes to the banking system most of the west are trying to push through

 

[SBT]

So you don't think the psychology of the madman with access to the red button matters?

Now, it could be that Putin wouldn't, and his threats over them are just there to stop us acting. But the fact we aren't acting says everything that there is a genuine fear he is mad enough to do it. Look at the reasons we've acted in the Middle east in the past. Like this but on a much smaller scale. But we got involved there, so why aren't we here?

Two reasons:
1. They had resources there that we wanted.
2. We weren't afraid of any comeback/annihalation because we knew their forces weren't equipped to do so.

Putin is dangerous enough without having to resort to Dr Evil cliches. Since 1945 there have been plenty of psychotic maniacs with nuclear capabilities, but whatever the strategic setback, none have used them outside of Christopher Nolan films. In real life, “If I can’t have it, no-one will” isn’t a great strategy for accumulating the kind of power that tyrants like Putin have gathered over the decades.

There’s nothing naive about this. The risk of compromising our response because we’ve played into Putin’s madman posturing is significantly greater than the risk of Putin incinerating us (and himself, and his entire family) out of some cartoonish evil spite.

 

[skybluetony176]

I’m sure Mr Macron will puff his chest out while still taking gas reserves and refusing changes to the banking system most of the west are trying to push through

Isn’t it only Hungry that are now stopping that now? Do keep up.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Putin is dangerous enough without having to resort to Dr Evil cliches. Since 1945 there have been plenty of psychotic maniacs with nuclear capabilities, but whatever the strategic setback, none have used them outside of Christopher Nolan films. In real life, “If I can’t have it, no-one will” isn’t a great strategy for accumulating the kind of power that tyrants like Putin have gathered over the decades.

There’s nothing naive about this. The risk of compromising our response because we’ve played into Putin’s madman posturing is significantly greater than the risk of Putin incinerating us (and himself, and his entire family) out of some cartoonish evil spite.

If that’s the case why haven’t Western forces intervened militarily?

 

[skybluetony176]

Looks like Russias government are claiming no losses and Ukraine soldiers are surrendering. No surprise.

 

[Grendel]

If that’s the case why haven’t Western forces intervened militarily?

The military experts who I suspect know a little bit more than SBT were expressing significant concern that nuclear strategy is always and has always been in putins planning if there is aggression in non nato territory - if the west really want to cripple him the likes of Germany Italy and France need to starve their supplies - the Russian economy is fragile and although their own people would pay a very heavy price the collapse of its economy would you hope create some concern with its generals

Let’s be realistic here though. If Putin did start attacking Europe the US would not get involved.

 

[Flying Fokker]

China going be to number 1 as their economy going to dominate. much like Russia they have designs of regional dominancy just theirs is Asia and Russia's is Europe.

China invade Russia? That would be a curve ball. I know you didn’t suggest it btw.

 

[SBT]

If that’s the case why haven’t Western forces intervened militarily?

I mean, there are all kinds of reasons, aren’t there? Russia’s military power is an important factor. But I seriously doubt that the only thing deciding our involvement is “Crazy man could push big red apocalypse button”. At least, I hope it isn’t - otherwise, to borrow a phrase, we may as well just let them get on with it.

 

[David O'Day]

So Vlad thought the people of Ukraine would welcome them

 

[Grendel]

I mean, there are all kinds of reasons, aren’t there? Russia’s military power is an important factor. But I seriously doubt that the only thing deciding our involvement is “Crazy man could push big red apocalypse button”. At least, I hope it isn’t - otherwise, to borrow a phrase, we may as well just let them get on with it.

perhaps you should write “5 things you didn’t know about Mr Putin”‘and threaten him with publishing it in the CT - I’d imagine that alone should end this conflict

 

[Flying Fokker]

The military experts who I suspect know a little bit more than SBT were expressing significant concern that nuclear strategy is always and has always been in putins planning if there is aggression in non nato territory - if the west really want to cripple him the likes of Germany Italy and France need to starve their supplies - the Russian economy is fragile and although their own people would pay a very heavy price the collapse of its economy would you hope create some concern with its generals

Let’s be realistic here though. If Putin did start attacking Europe the US would not get involved.

The US would. They have nukes in Europe. That is a good enough reason to defend their Sovereignty.

 

[Grendel]

The US would. They have nukes in Europe. That is a good enough reason to defend their Sovereignty.

Yes they’ve always in global conflicts supported Europe before threatened

 

[SBT]

The military experts who I suspect know a little bit more than SBT were expressing significant concern that nuclear strategy is always and has always been in putins planning if there is aggression in non nato territory - if the west really want to cripple him the likes of Germany Italy and France need to starve their supplies - the Russian economy is fragile and although their own people would pay a very heavy price the collapse of its economy would you hope create some concern with its generals

Terrorising people with the threat of the apocalypse in the hope that it gives the west pause IS Putin’s nuclear strategy! Seems to be working on a few people already.

As for the second part - didn’t you say that Putin didn’t care about his own economy a few days ago? And that keeping Ukraine out of NATO should be the only sanction?

 

[David O'Day]