USSR invades Ukraine. (19 Viewers)

[Brighton Sky Blue]

If Putin goes into Estonia we won't really have an option, yes, because they signed a piece of paper, that's the crazy world we live in.

Fair enough, the kind of strategy that worked so well in WW1. Not that I hold you responsible by the way!

 

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[clint van damme]

Fair enough, the kind of strategy that worked so well in WW1. Not that I hold you responsible by the way!

As far as I see it with my limited understanding, we're holding off on strategies that would almost certainly start WW3 and implementing strategies that might lead to it at some point any way, but there's a chance they might not, so let's kick the can down the road.

It's a shitty situation.

 

[PVA]

Not allow a humanitarian crisis to unfold with no military intervention is what I want. The more land that is taken the messier it gets. There was the chance early on to stamp out this invasion from the skies.

Are we really willing to potentially go to Armageddon over Estonia simply because it signed the relevant paperwork?

The point is we won't get armageddon over Estonia because Putin won't invade because of the NATO deterrent.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

The point is we won't get armageddon over Estonia because Putin won't invade because of the NATO deterrent.

That's a massive assumption considering that clearly he's unstable. He has been able to do this by threatening us with the nuclear deterrent-if he succeeds here then Georgia and Moldova which are also not NATO members and also have pro Russian separatist movements will surely be next on his radar.

Not to mention what we allow in terms of him gaining an enormous amount of territory in the process.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Lavrov: It's very difficult for me to explain how Zelenskyy can be chairman in a society where Nazis are flourishing.

No shit.

 

[Bugsy]

I don't know shit but one of a number of things what worries me is when Putin gets his hands on chernobyl nuclear power plant. That's only going to strengthen his power.

 

[skybluetony176]

 

[PVA]

That's a massive assumption considering that clearly he's unstable. He has been able to do this by threatening us with the nuclear deterrent-if he succeeds here then Georgia and Moldova which are also not NATO members and also have pro Russian separatist movements will surely be next on his radar.

Not to mention what we allow in terms of him gaining an enormous amount of territory in the process.

I agree it's shit, and hard to stomach.

But nukes are a terrible thing and the reason we're in this situation.

If nukes weren't a thing then the West would have intervened and Russia's army would have been obliterated by now

 

[shmmeee]

I agree it's shit, and hard to stomach.

But nukes are a terrible thing and the reason we're in this situation.

If nukes weren't a thing then the West would have intervened and Russia's army would have been obliterated by now

While he might be mad enough to order a full scale nuclear strike, I doubt it’s nutters all the way down the chain of command.

 

[duffer]

No one offers opinions so this is a pointless thread of ignorant Islington labour types who want a jolly little war as long as they can sit at home on the sofa while was working class types go and die

Russia was a colossal mistake from the west - I’ve been many times and it’s very much in the big cities a western style culture and was there to be seen as an ally in the west

We have since the days of wolfitz and through to Rimney gone with the notion it’s always an enemy abd when it was down smash it rather then embrace it

Now we are seeing the realisation of our folly. The west needed to pick on someone so it picked on Russia - a proud resolute and loyal nation as it knew it dared not confront China

In the end the kicked battered animal fights back

We’ve created this monstrosity and we’ve relied on it

This thread is full of utter nonsense — most on here are ironically like Putin they snarl and kick back when other views are expressed and to put it mildly most are ignorant and clueless

Good luck with it keep posturing and keep chatting but perhaps Google Romney (I know most will have heard of him) and the other chap and understand the philosophy tbe west have deployed against Russia why Putin became and why we are where we are

I’m a humble child I know but hey take a look

Got your wish leave you all to it for a while

If you expressed your views a bit more like this, with at least some exposition, rather than just snappy one line variants of "you're completely wrong and stupid", maybe you wouldn't get hammered so often.

Personally, I'd absolutely accept that the West got it wrong on Russia after the collapse of the Soviet Union. The Russian people, more than anyone else, paid a huge price in WW2 and afterwards in the cold war.

That things were then exacerbated by the swift adoption of the worst of neo-liberal, unfettered, unregulated capitalism, is a crime that the west were a huge party to. Primarily because some people made a lot of money out of it.

It led to massive corruption and huge inequality, and ultimately the breakdown of any kind of fledgling democracy. (This might well be happening more slowly in a country somewhere near you, imho.)

All that said, this in no way can justify what's happening in Ukraine.

Former Soviet states who wanted to be free of Russian influence, would inevitably look to the West given Russia's increasing determination to start taking slices out of their countries and destabilising their internal politics. What else could they do?

Worth a read of the link below, perhaps...

https://www.prospectmagazine.co.uk/magazine/how-the-west-lost-victory-communism-moral-defeat

 

[SBT]

I don't know shit but one of a number of things what worries me is when Putin gets his hands on chernobyl nuclear power plant. That's only going to strengthen his power.

It's an uninhabitable nuclear wasteland, what's he going to do with it, put up a Wetherspoons?

(Wouldn't be the first one etc etc)

 

[PVA]

I don't know shit but one of a number of things what worries me is when Putin gets his hands on chernobyl nuclear power plant. That's only going to strengthen his power.

He already has hasn't he?

I'm sure they took Chernobyl in the first day or two

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

He already has hasn't he?

I'm sure they took Chernobyl in the first day or two

It’s a joke

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

He already has hasn't he?

I'm sure they took Chernobyl in the first day or two

It’s a joke

 

[Flying Fokker]

I called for air support not boots on the ground, even then under a UN banner rather than just the RAF.

Also if you recall before the invasion I was talking more about plebiscites than attacks against Russia so the idea I have suddenly become a warmonger is a bit bizarre.

Don’t think I’ve copied any tweets or social media here either. I do offer what I really think though instead of playing devil’s advocate 24/7 to appear wise

I just think air support would be so easy. Take the convoy out etc. However, our hands are tied. All sides of the conflict, be they military experts, academics or politicians know that this would lead to further escalation if not annihilation.

Russia threatens us and I think they are mad enough to retaliate and force WW3 / Nuclear War. What happens if the Russians don't press self-destruct? Stand forward to defend your country because I don't think they will tolerate a no-fly zone for their mission.

I'm hoping that Ukraine holds on long enough because in my view the only way this will be resolved without further escalation is by a military coup in Russia.

 

[Bugsy]

It's an uninhabitable nuclear wasteland, what's he going to do with it, put up a Wetherspoons?

(Wouldn't be the first one etc etc)

He already has hasn't he?

I'm sure they took Chernobyl in the first day or two

It was a shit joke but there are concerns that some of Ukraine's 15 active nuclear reactors will get caught in the cross fire.

The risks of war in a nuclear state – DW – 03/04/2022

The fear that Russia's invasion of Ukraine could escalate to a nuclear war is real. But what happens now that its largest active nuclear power plant has been caught in the crossfire?

m.dw.com

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

I just think air support would be so easy. Take the convoy out etc. However, our hands are tied. All sides of the conflict, be they military experts, academics or politicians know that this would lead to further escalation if not annihilation.

Russia threatens us and I think they are mad enough to retaliate and force WW3 / Nuclear War. What happens if the Russians don't press self-destruct? Stand forward to defend your country because I don't think they will tolerate a no-fly zone for their mission.

I'm hoping that Ukraine holds on long enough because in my view the only way this will be resolved without further escalation is by a military coup in Russia.

Alternatively Russia can continue invading wherever it likes on the basis that we won't retaliate. We are trying to appease a man who claims a country with a Jewish president is a neo-Nazi state. He cannot be reasoned with.

 

[Alan Dugdales Moustache]

I look at the state of those cities that have been flattened so far in the name of "denazification" and I wonder what on earth Putin will do with the country when nothing is left .
Ukraine is now lost. The media focus on the humanitarian issues and how the world is pulling together to help those displaced.
I hope the countries of Europe embark on a rearmament programme because as things stand we cannot hold Russia back . It will take years to do that effectively. If Russia find that provocative I'm afraid the alternative to not doing it is to invite the destruction of another European country . Collectively Europe must not allow that to happen.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

At least this Waghorn is on form

 

[duffer]

Grendel you are arguing with yourself. You make some excellent points and some bizarre ones. At least the thread won’t get thrown off on tangents if you’ve genuinely gone for a bit. Russia is systematically destroying Ukraine and we can do nothing to stop it or so the argument goes. When Russia move on to Estonia I don’t want anyone to make the argument we can’t act

I think in fairness Pete, the world and particularly Europe, is trying to act, it's just trying to balance the risks. For Tories, that seemingly includes the risks to their donors.

By the time all this is over, one way or the other, I don't think the Russian military will be in any fit state for another adventure. Honestly, I still don't see any way that they'd risk taking on NATO directly.

We might not be able to do much in Ukraine, but one of the levers I'd be tempted to pull right now would be to place Georgia's current borders under NATO protection, even if not classed as a full member. I wouldn't put boots on the ground, as that would be provocative, but I'd certainly do it by treaty long before Putin even thinks about pulling this one again.

 

[PVA]

I hope the countries of Europe embark on a rearmament programme because as things stand we cannot hold Russia back .

Although Germany is investing heavily in its military, a rearmamemt programme is not needed as Europe could already utterly flatten the Russian military at current strengths, it just chooses not to.

 

[clint van damme]

I hope the countries of Europe embark on a rearmament programme because as things stand we cannot hold Russia back .

I'll be amazed if that isn't already being discussed.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Quite a telling photo. The Ukrainian team in camouflage gear, the Russians in suits.

 

[Alan Dugdales Moustache]

I think in fairness Pete, the world and particularly Europe, is trying to act, it's just trying to balance the risks. For Tories, that seemingly includes the risks to their donors.

By the time all this is over, one way or the other, I don't think the Russian military will be in any fit state for another adventure. Honestly, I still don't see any way that they'd risk taking on NATO directly.

We might not be able to do much in Ukraine, but one of the levers I'd be tempted to pull right now would be to place Georgia's current borders under NATO protection, even if not classed as a full member. I wouldn't put boots on the ground, as that would be provocative, but I'd certainly do it by treaty long before Putin even thinks about pulling this one again.

Agreed. So far the Russian forces seem to have little appetite for this and morale is reported as not as strong as it should be.
I can't see them taking on another country at the same time as tackling what will be a guerilla war in Ukraine.
If they do I can imagine the economic sanctions and public opinion and morale in Russia might just rattle those around Putin.
But then again I'm not in the mindset of your average Russian.

 

[Deleted member 9744]

The point is we won't get armageddon over Estonia because Putin won't invade because of the NATO deterrent.

I wish I was as confident as you on that but you might be right. I certainly hope so. I don't think it will happen for a while but who knows.

 

[Deleted member 9744]

That's a massive assumption considering that clearly he's unstable. He has been able to do this by threatening us with the nuclear deterrent-if he succeeds here then Georgia and Moldova which are also not NATO members and also have pro Russian separatist movements will surely be next on his radar.

Not to mention what we allow in terms of him gaining an enormous amount of territory in the process.

I am not sure that I buy the idea that it's all down to one individual who is unstable. If Putin were to die of natural causes would Russia change course? Who knows but I am not convinced. I feel in history the impact of individuals is often overplayed and it's the situation that results in major events.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

I am not sure that I buy the idea that it's all down to one individual who is unstable. If Putin were to die of natural causes would Russia change course? Who knows but I am not convinced. I feel in history the impact of individuals is often overplayed and it's the situation that results in major events.

Well I've said before if he were somehow assassinated it would simply make him a martyr for a like minded person to follow.

 

[skybluetony176]

Report that young men are starting to flee Russia for fear of being conscripted into a war they oppose and Russia also apparently on the edge of declaring marshal law. Not just the attack in Ukraine that’s fell apart, Russian society and liberty (what little there is anyway) also falling apart.

 

[Ian1779]

Hey now, time travel is a perfectly valid strategy.

Eliminate Putin, time-heist style.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Eliminate Putin, time-heist style.

We've kind of tried that before, didn't work too well

 

[skybluetony176]

Just saw the footage of the primary school children arrested for protesting. They actually put them in holding cages and separated them from their parents. WTF is wrong with these people.

 

[RegTheDonk]

The point is we won't get armageddon over Estonia because Putin won't invade because of the NATO deterrent.

I tend to agree. If he was going to start a ruck, why not begin with a much smaller country he could easily over run?
Because they're in NATO.
He may be mad but his inner circle don't want their families to joint sign his suicide pact.

 

[RegTheDonk]

Fair enough, the kind of strategy that worked so well in WW1. Not that I hold you responsible by the way!

Mate, you're quoting WW1 when they only just invented tanks ffs.
All nice for the politicians to send their boys out to die for the cause. It's a long way from home.
Nukes bring the drama to your doorstep.

 

[PVA]

I wish I was as confident as you on that but you might be right. I certainly hope so. I don't think it will happen for a while but who knows.

I hope I am right too!

He's clearly a fucking madman, but he must surely know that if he invaded a NATO country there are two possible outcomes for him:

1. His army gets utterly obliterated
2. He gets nuked


Either way, he has absolutely nothing to gain.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Mate, you're quoting WW1 when they only just invented tanks ffs.
All nice for the politicians to send their boys out to die for the cause. It's a long way from home.
Nukes bring the drama to your doorstep.

The politicians did send their boys out to die for the cause in WW1, in a foreign land because of an assassination in a distant land. And the reason why it happened is the same as why we would risk nuclear war if Putin went into Estonia, which I doubt most Brits could find on a map