USSR invades Ukraine. (21 Viewers)

[duffer]

For anyone who's got a serious interest in how we got here, there's a really detailed and very prescient analysis of US/NATO foreign policy and how it led to this conflict, below.

It's a long read, but imho well worth it if you've got the time.

The only thing I'd say, is that no matter how wronged or slighted Putin or Russia feels, there can be no justification for or acceptance of what is happening in Ukraine... (this answers the "but Wolfowitz" question, elsewhere).

Thirty Years of U.S. Policy Toward Russia: Can the Vicious Circle Be Broken?

U.S.-Russia relations are at an impasse. Fixing this relationship requires Washington to change its policy on strategic stability, NATO expansion, and sanctions.

carnegieendowment.org

 

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[Otis]

And THIS is why Ukraine will win

 

[duffer]

I said Zelensky has and tagged you - are you actuality the Ukrainian PM? Wow

No, actually you didn't. Because you're too lazy and incompetent to use punctuation despite thinking you're the cleverest poster here. Anyway, you're just embarrassing yourself now, and you're boring me and everyone else with your incessant bullshit.

So get thee hence, troll, I'd rather talk to someone who's not on the wind up.

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

Discussions tonight with friends saying Ukraine should surrender and fight an underground war from within. We can’t fight with them so they need to limit the damage to their country

 

[Grendel]

For anyone who's got a serious interest in how we got here, there's a really detailed and very prescient analysis of US/NATO foreign policy and how it led to this conflict, below.

It's a long read, but imho well worth it if you've got the time.

The only thing I'd say, is that no matter how wronged or slighted Putin or Russia feels, there can be no justification for or acceptance of what is happening in Ukraine... (this answers the "but Wolfowitz" question, elsewhere).

Thirty Years of U.S. Policy Toward Russia: Can the Vicious Circle Be Broken?

U.S.-Russia relations are at an impasse. Fixing this relationship requires Washington to change its policy on strategic stability, NATO expansion, and sanctions.

carnegieendowment.org

This is comedy Gold

 

[duffer]

This is comedy Gold

Try harder mate, you've not even read it.

If you weren't such a ignorant arsehole you'd see that it's actually making some of the points you've been trying to make, but using coherent language. Again though, please fuck off, you're boring us all now.

 

[Grendel]

Try harder mate, you've not even read it.

If you weren't such a ignorant arsehole you'd see that it's actually making some of the points you've been trying to make, but using coherent language. Again though, please fuck off, you're boring us all now.

You’ve actually linked the philosophy and ideology of Peter Wolfowitz so yes it’s actually hilarious

I’ve already read it

 

[Alan Dugdales Moustache]

Bless. Wrong again. Nuance isn't your strong suit.

I don't think I've 'demanded' a no fly zone, though I've suggested it might be worth considering on the balance of risk if Putin starts firing at nuclear power stations.

Basically you're just making stuff up in your usual, lazy, arrogant matter to deflect from the fact that you'd literally do nothing.

"Nuance" is one of those words that has absolutely no meaning whatsoever. If you look up the definition it actually means nothing at all but is thrown about to sound clever. Sorry, just saying .

 

[Grendel]

Wolfowitz was policy maker in the bush administration when Russia transitioned from communism and created the foreign policy that’s treated Russia as an enemy while embracing China

This policy has created Putin and the monster we have now

Well done @duffer you’ve actually agreed with me in the end

 

[Grendel]

"Nuance" is one of those words that has absolutely no meaning whatsoever. If you look up the definition it actually means nothing at all but is thrown about to sound clever. Sorry, just saying .

He loves his cliches he also it seems would consider ww3 as a justification for defending Ukraine

 

[duffer]

"Nuance" is one of those words that has absolutely no meaning whatsoever. If you look up the definition it actually means nothing at all but is thrown about to sound clever. Sorry, just saying .

I'm afraid I've got to disagree with you there, here's the dictionary definition of 'nuance':

a subtle difference in or shade of meaning, expression, or sound.

Maybe it's a bit too 'subtle' a word for you, but it definitely has meaning.

 

[stupot07]

Discussions tonight with friends saying Ukraine should surrender and fight an underground war from within. We can’t fight with them so they need to limit the damage to their country

Are any of them Ukrainian?

Sent from my SM-G965F using Tapatalk

 

[Grendel]

I'm afraid I've got to disagree with you there, here's the dictionary definition of 'nuance':

a subtle difference in or shade of meaning, expression, or sound.

Maybe it's a bit too 'subtle' a word for you, but it definitely has meaning.

I’m just amazed you’ve agreed with me in the end - well done you

 

[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

Wolfowitz was policy maker in the bush administration when Russia transitioned from communism and created the foreign policy that’s treated Russia as an enemy while embracing China

This policy has created Putin and the monster we have now

Well done @duffer you’ve actually agreed with me in the end

Genuine question G, but IF that policy had been different and they'd have treated Russia with more openness politically (not including the finance/investment/retail etc which were welcomed) rather than a continued foe do you think Putin's mindset of the west would be much different to what it is now?

Putin is a child of the USSR. He admires Stalin and wants to bring the USSR back. As much as the U.S. treated Russia with suspicion due to past relations, Putin was more than happy to do the same with the west.

Do you not think there was intelligence to suggest the Russians needed to be watched? We've got the poisonings of Litvinenko and Skripal. Georgia. Crimea. Donbas. Incursions into our airspace. Attempted hackers. It's not like they've covered themselves with openness themselves and warranted suspicion.

As for blaming NATO expansion, that was the wish of the ex-Soviet states. They'd been under Soviet control for a long time and had a pretty shit time of it, so should it be any surprise that they wanted to move to a more Western way of thinking? And given that those that joined haven't been invaded (despite probably being much easier to take over if you exclude NATO support) it shows that that was the correct decision by them, or this could have been them.

As much as you keep saying that Putin became this because of U.S. attitudes towards Russia, I think he'd have been the same regardless.

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

Are any of them Ukrainian?

Sent from my SM-G965F using Tapatalk

Spent time in Odessa and has friends there. Family came from Ukraine to New York two generations ago so yeah. He’d prefer them to be alive than dead

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

I said Zelensky has and tagged you - are you actuality the Ukrainian PM? Wow

Zelensky tagged Duffer?

 

[duffer]

He loves his cliches he also it seems would consider ww3 as a justification for defending Ukraine

I’m just amazed you’ve agreed with me in the end - well done you

Yawn. Give it a rest now old chap.

Do you remember when you PM'd me for help on something, and I offered to help.

Then, you were respectful, now you're being a total prick. What do you get out of this?

Actually, don't answer, because no one else cares and this needs to stop because it's derailing an otherwise interesting thread. It's a pity, because sometimes in the incessant trolling there is the odd nugget, and somewhere behind the idiotic facade that you delight in presenting here, there might be a decent bloke.

But the truth is you're just not worth responding to, so from now on it's onto mute for you. (Relieved sighs all round, I suspect).

 

[Grendel]

Yawn. Give it a rest now old chap.

Do you remember when you PM'd me for help on something, and I offered to help.

Then, you were respectful, now you're being a total prick. What do you get out of this?

Actually, don't answer, because no one else cares and this needs to stop because it's derailing an otherwise interesting thread. It's a pity, because sometimes in the incessant trolling there is the odd nugget, and somewhere behind the idiotic facade that you delight in presenting here, there might be a decent bloke.

But the truth is you're just not worth responding to, so from now on it's onto mute for you. (Relieved sighs all round, I suspect).

It’s you that’s spitting and snarling insults everywhere - literally everywhere - and having jolly japes with O Day isn’t exactly endearing you to me either

 

[Otis]

 

[PVA]

"Kherson, Ukraine's only big city to have been captured"

Someone needs to email the BBC and inform them that actually a large portion of major cities have fallen

 

[Finham]

I’m just amazed you’ve agreed with me in the end - well done you

What's with your avatar?

 

[Grendel]

What's with your avatar?

keep the red flag flying comrade

And yes I know

 

[Evo1883]

Spent time in Odessa and has friends there. Family came from Ukraine to New York two generations ago so yeah. He’d prefer them to be alive than dead

Careful Pete, David o day will put you on ignore for saying this

I agree with your friends , it's something Ukraine and its leaders will have to ponder over at some point I'd imagine

 

[clint van damme]

Wolfowitz was policy maker in the bush administration when Russia transitioned from communism and created the foreign policy that’s treated Russia as an enemy while embracing China

This policy has created Putin and the monster we have now

Well done @duffer you’ve actually agreed with me in the end

Has America really embraced China though?
Obama did because he wanted a climate deal but realised he was getting played.

Trump imposed tariffs on them which I dont think Biden has rolled back and if you're going to look at Wolfowitzs doctrines influence on American policy surely you have to look at Dugins on Russias?

 

[PVA]

Hopefully they can make this happen

 

[Marty]

I love zubrowka, but we like to make our own chili vodka and zubrowka wouldn't work.

My Grandad used to make his own wisniowka (cherry vodka). Would absolutely knock your socks off; unreal stuff. I've tried a couple of times but just can't seem to get it right.

 

[xcraigx]

 

[eastwoodsdustman]

Careful Pete, David o day will put you on ignore for saying this

I agree with your friends , it's something Ukraine and its leaders will have to ponder over at some point I'd imagine

I’d disagree. If Russia are eventually in control if Ukraine then the Ukranian people will be heavily oppressed by the Russians. Even more so now as revenge for their stiff resistance so far.
Russia is struggling to overcome the Ukranians and at home Putin is becoming more paranoid and detached from reality (much like Hitler in WW2). I think that they need to keep defending themselves and maybe carry the fight to Russia over the next couple of weeks especially if they are receiving more aircraft from the west.
Things will take a turn for the worse on the Russisn home front in the next 2/3 weeks with people already kicking off. This could result in some major unrest and possibly a change at the top.
I think that the west know this and its the scenario they hope for. Hence they are willing to support Ukraine as much as they can without putting troops in.

 

[fernandopartridge]

Genuine question G, but IF that policy had been different and they'd have treated Russia with more openness politically (not including the finance/investment/retail etc which were welcomed) rather than a continued foe do you think Putin's mindset of the west would be much different to what it is now?

Putin is a child of the USSR. He admires Stalin and wants to bring the USSR back. As much as the U.S. treated Russia with suspicion due to past relations, Putin was more than happy to do the same with the west.

Do you not think there was intelligence to suggest the Russians needed to be watched? We've got the poisonings of Litvinenko and Skripal. Georgia. Crimea. Donbas. Incursions into our airspace. Attempted hackers. It's not like they've covered themselves with openness themselves and warranted suspicion.

As for blaming NATO expansion, that was the wish of the ex-Soviet states. They'd been under Soviet control for a long time and had a pretty shit time of it, so should it be any surprise that they wanted to move to a more Western way of thinking? And given that those that joined haven't been invaded (despite probably being much easier to take over if you exclude NATO support) it shows that that was the correct decision by them, or this could have been them.

As much as you keep saying that Putin became this because of U.S. attitudes towards Russia, I think he'd have been the same regardless.

Putin wants a Czarist Russia not the USSR, he saw the Bolsheviks as traitors for breaking up Russia and giving the SSRs the right of secession. I find it difficult to believe he admires Stalin on that basis.

 

[Flying Fokker]

Just picked a snippet out of this.. Tank fuel lasts 62 miles, doubled up with external containers. 3 Miles to the gallon.

 

[Sick Boy]

Johnson has put together a 6 point plan to end the conflict, that’ll show them.

 

[Otis]

Johnson has put together a 6 point plan to end the conflict, that’ll show them.

Are three of them cancelling dinner parties with oligarchs and their wives?

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

Are three of them cancelling dinner parties with oligarchs and their wives?

Playing tennis with oligarchs wives is one

 

[CCFCSteve]

To be fair, I’ve just read the 6 point plan and it’s all sensible…let’s see if he has the detail as to how to best deliver the 6 points though…always Johnson’s weakness !

For all the (understandable) mocking of the slowness around oligarchs you only have to look at the aggressive/threatening comments towards us coming out of Russia to recognise who they see as one of the main drivers/instigators of support for Ukraine.

Im guessing they are pissed off about the military defence equipment and training we have provided since the start of the year (and apparently pushed others to provide), without which, who knows how things might’ve panned out especially in the first few days

 

[clint van damme]

To be fair, I’ve just read the 6 point plan and it’s all sensible…let’s see if he has the detail as to how to best deliver the 6 points though…always Johnson’s weakness !

For all the (understandable) mocking of the slowness around oligarchs you only have to look at the aggressive/threatening comments towards us coming out of Russia to recognise who they see as one of the main drivers/instigators of support for Ukraine.

Im guessing they are pissed off about the military defence equipment and training we have provided since the start of the year (and apparently pushed others to provide), without which, who knows how things might’ve panned out especially in the first few days

Even without whats going on in Ukraine Oligarchs should never have been allowed to get away with what they have done in this country nor get as balls deep into our government as they are.
And that applies to the Ukranian oligarchs who raped their health service and washed the money through London.