This Summer (8 Viewers)

[Skybluebeliever]

Da Costa and Hilssner will be extremely hard to “get rid”. They’re on nice contracts here, better then they’ll elsewhere and neither are playing regularly at their loan clubs.

I see a Kastaneer like contract termination

Yes you could be right and then that doesn’t help us as we have to pay them a lump sum if an agreement is reached

 

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[harvey098]

It looks bizarre now because he has been injured all season but let's not forget he was apart ofnour survival last season including smashing into the post to save one off the line which cost him 3 months out injured. It's more than reasonable to think he would have been given another contract and slowly phased out for this year which most of us suggested would and should happen

Agreed, I was pleasently surprised at how well he stepped up last season. Our best spells last season were when he was fit.

He was a cheap option to retain with no transfer fee etc. and obviously a good character / professional to have in the squad as opposed to bringing in a free transfer who might be more disruptive to the squad if on the bench etc. made sense to keep Kelly around.

 

[shmmeee]

If we’re able to get £50k/wk back from shipping out Walker, Kelly, Shipley, Waghorn, Dacosta, Hilßner and Pask. Plus offload Jones, Drysdale, and a few of the U23s and send the two loans back. I can see us running with something like this assuming no sales.

Moore/Wilson
Dabo/Kane
Bidwell/LWB
Hyam/Rose
Fadz/CB
LCB
Hamer/Eccles/Howley
Sheaf/Allen
O’Hare/AM
Györkeres/ST
Godden/Tavares

With a couple of loans and three or four signings. Well have to hit the mark with every signing for that to work out IMO.

 

[KenilworthSkyBlue]

If we’re able to get £50k/wk back from shipping out Walker, Kelly, Shipley, Waghorn, Dacosta, Hilßner and Pask. Plus offload Jones, Drysdale, and a few of the U23s and send the two loans back. I can see us running with something like this assuming no sales.

Moore/Wilson
Dabo/Kane
Bidwell/LWB
Hyam/Rose
Fadz/CB
LCB
Hamer/Eccles/Howley
Sheaf/Allen
O’Hare/AM
Györkeres/ST
Godden/Tavares

With a couple of loans and three or four signings. Well have to hit the mark with every signing for that to work out IMO.

Bit of a change of tune when we were having this discussion a month ago when you claimed offloading players would be meaningless with regards to us being able to conduct business in the summer....

 

[Ccfcisparks]

If we’re able to get £50k/wk back from shipping out Walker, Kelly, Shipley, Waghorn, Dacosta, Hilßner and Pask. Plus offload Jones, Drysdale, and a few of the U23s and send the two loans back. I can see us running with something like this assuming no sales.

Moore/Wilson
Dabo/Kane
Bidwell/LWB
Hyam/Rose
Fadz/CB
LCB
Hamer/Eccles/Howley
Sheaf/Allen
O’Hare/AM
Györkeres/ST
Godden/Tavares

With a couple of loans and three or four signings. Well have to hit the mark with every signing for that to work out IMO.

That would be a decent squad. Would really like to see 1 of the CB's shipped, probably Rose, for another of quality.

 

[Grendel]

Fcuk me. Are you complementing one of our own players?

i complement many of our players Charles

 

[SlowerThanPlatt]

Bit of a change of tune when we were having this discussion a month ago when you claimed offloading players would be meaningless with regards to us being able to conduct business in the summer....

I don’t see who is going to take Da Costa or Hilssner on. The latter doesn’t start games in Germany’s third tier

 

[KenilworthSkyBlue]

I don’t see who is going to take Da Costa or Hilssner on. The latter doesn’t start games in Germany’s third tier

I don't see what club is going to take any of our players who are under contract and surplus to requirements to be honest.

Dacosta and Hilssner are just the tip of the iceberg.

 

[Grendel]

I don’t see who is going to take Da Costa or Hilssner on. The latter doesn’t start games in Germany’s third tier

or Kelly if he’d on around £8 grand a week

 

[larry_david]

I imagine there would be a fair few league 1 clubs who would snap Kelly up. And some of those clubs pay bigger wages than we think they do.

 

[shmmeee]

Bit of a change of tune when we were having this discussion a month ago when you claimed offloading players would be meaningless with regards to us being able to conduct business in the summer....

Honestly? I didn’t expect us to be able to raise £50k/wk on the budget but I’ll trust SBB. I also think that’s still a very small squad and as I say success would rely on:

- Us offloading all out deadwood (unlikely)
- Us finding quality players at under £10/wk (unlikely but possible)
- All signings coming off and no duds (unlikely)
- Us not having the same or worse injury problems next season (unlikely with the compressed season)

An injury to Hamer with that squad would be catastrophic for example.

 

[KenilworthSkyBlue]

I imagine there would be a fair few league 1 clubs who would snap Kelly up. And some of those clubs pay bigger wages than we think they do.

They aren't paying anywhere near what Kelly's reportedly on.

The average wage in L1 is about £3-4k pw.

 

[Grendel]

I imagine there would be a fair few league 1 clubs who would snap Kelly up. And some of those clubs pay bigger wages than we think they do.

Hed want a 2 year contract. Who’d give him £800 grand over two years With his injury record?

 

[KenilworthSkyBlue]

Honestly? I didn’t expect us to be able to raise £50k/wk on the budget but I’ll trust SBB. I also think that’s still a very small squad and as I say success would rely on:

- Us offloading all out deadwood (unlikely)
- Us finding quality players at under £10/wk (unlikely but possible)
- All signings coming off and no duds (unlikely)
- Us not having the same or worse injury problems next season (unlikely with the compressed season)

An injury to Hamer with that squad would be catastrophic for example.

I didn't expect it to be £50k pw, but it was fairly obvious that it was significant, certainly to the point that it was severely restricting our ability to recruit anyway.

Hence why I was stressing the point that there's clearly a fundamental issue within our recruitment - especially when it comes to lacking diligence with regards to offering what to who and for how long.

I personally think we'll very much struggle to offload pretty much all of the deadwood under contract in the summer without having to mutually terminate, but I guess you never know.

 

[shmmeee]

I didn't expect it to be £50k pw, but it was fairly obvious that it was significant, certainly to the point that it was severely restricting our ability to recruit anyway.

Hence why I was stressing the point that there's clearly a fundamental issue within our recruitment - especially when it comes to lacking diligence with regards to offering what to who and for how long.

I personally think we'll very much struggle to offload pretty much all of the deadwood under contract in the summer without having to mutually terminate, but I guess you never know.

I think if we’re paying £40k/wk for Waghorn, Walker and Kelly then the real problem is the contract negotiations. Kelly shouldn’t be on anything like to £10k/wk really. Makes be wonder what the likes of Jamie Allen is earning.

My assumptions were maybe £25k for the three of them. We do seem to be overpaying. Of course that means we’re likely to also overpay any recruits and the cash won’t go as far as you’d hope. £50k would maybe buy three of the five we’d need minimum.

 

[Deleted member 5849]

I think if we’re paying £40k/wk for Waghorn, Walker and Kelly then the real problem is the contract negotiations. Kelly shouldn’t be on anything like to £10k/wk really. Makes be wonder what the likes of Jamie Allen is earning.

My assumptions were maybe £25k for the three of them. We do seem to be overpaying. Of course that means we’re likely to also overpay any recruits and the cash won’t go as far as you’d hope. £50k would maybe buy three of the five we’d need minimum.

Was initially surprised at Kelly, but the more I think about it, the more I'm... not. As mentioned, is club captain, and has also had a major influence on us getting to this level, and staying at this level, so our turnover can afford those kinds of wages. And it's reassuring in any business if people get rewarded for achievement without having to move on elsewhere.

Actually, Waghorn would surprise me more. Don't care what he was earning at Derby, he was at a club that *needed* to release players, had had a mediocre season before - I just can't see he'd have been in huge demand before signing for us.

Of course, he'll be in even less demand now!

 

[KenilworthSkyBlue]

I think if we’re paying £40k/wk for Waghorn, Walker and Kelly then the real problem is the contract negotiations. Kelly shouldn’t be on anything like to £10k/wk really. Makes be wonder what the likes of Jamie Allen is earning.

My assumptions were maybe £25k for the three of them. We do seem to be overpaying. Of course that means we’re likely to also overpay any recruits and the cash won’t go as far as you’d hope. £50k would maybe buy three of the five we’d need minimum.

Well exactly, as I say there's clearly a fundamental problem with what is offered to who. Contract negotiation is an integral part of the wider recruitment model at any given club and ours is pretty abysmal at times really.

It's the same issue season after season and it's come to a head. Bright, Jobello, Kelly, Mason, Hilssner, Waghorn, Kastaneer, Jones, Dacosta all offered contracts in recent years that are completely undeserved. We could barely recruit in January because of the majority still being under contract and now it's probably going to cause a pretty sizeable issue again this summer.

 

[shmmeee]

Well exactly, as I say there's clearly a fundamental problem with what is offered to who. Contract negotiation is an integral part of the wider recruitment model at any given club and ours is pretty abysmal at times really.

It's the same issue season after season and it's come to a head. Bright, Jobello, Kelly, Mason, Hilssner, Waghorn, Kastaneer, Jones, Dacosta all offered contracts in recent years that are completely undeserved. We could barely recruit in January because of the majority still being under contract and now it's probably going to cause a pretty sizeable issue again this summer.

Its definitely going to be defined by how many of the fringe players we can ship out. I’d be very surprised to see anyone offer any of Kelly, Walker or Waghorn as much as they’re getting. Dacosta and Hilßner maybe the wish to go home might sway them.

If we can’t get rid of those three, then I can’t see how we can bring in 3/4 signings of quality, which leads me back to my original take on this summer.

 

[KenilworthSkyBlue]

Its definitely going to be defined by how many of the fringe players we can ship out. I’d be very surprised to see anyone offer any of Kelly, Walker or Waghorn as much as they’re getting. Dacosta and Hilßner maybe the wish to go home might sway them.

If we can’t get rid of those three, then I can’t see how we can bring in 3/4 signings of quality, which leads me back to my original take on this summer.

It was always going to be defined by that as when you have a scatter-gun approach to offering long term contracts to players then you're going to get yourself into a situation whereby a sizeable chunk of your budget is going to be used up by deadwood.

This is why I don't necessarily buy the apparent fact that we've got a small squad due to a lack of budget. We've got a small squad because at present we have nearly 10 players under contract that aren't anywhere near up to the standard required and therefore make little to no contribution on the pitch. Obviously investment would be great but the lack of it is used as a bit of a scapegoat at times.

In order to mitigate this we need to utilise the budget better and to do that, far more diligence needs to be enacted when offering contracts to players as there just seems to be no strategy in place. Offering a 3-year contract to Jobello for instance and then offering the same to Hamer is just bizarre.

 

[Terry Gibson's perm]

It was always going to be defined by that as when you have a scatter-gun approach to offering long term contracts to players then you're going to get yourself into a situation whereby a sizeable chunk of your budget is going to be used up by deadwood.

This is why I don't necessarily by the fact that we've got a small squad due to lack of budget. We've got a small squad because at present we have nearly 10 players under contract that aren't anywhere near up to the standard required and therefore make little to no contribution on the pitch. Obviously investment would be great but the lack of it is used as a bit of a scapegoat at times.

In order to mitigate this we need to utilise the budget better and to do that, far more diligence needs to be enacted when offering contracts to players as there just seems to be no strategy in place. Offering a 3-year contract to Jobello for instance and then offering then same to Hamer is just bizarre.

The problem is an internationally based player won’t come here on a one year contract if they have to move their family etc. But the most we should offer was is a two year with option of another year in our favour.

 

[larry_david]

Hed want a 2 year contract. Who’d give him £800 grand over two years With his injury record?

Let's be honest, injury records mean nothing in football. You'd think they would, but they don't. We have proven that with signing Jobello who'd done 2 ACLs and giving Jones a contract again after 3 ACLS

 

[KenilworthSkyBlue]

The problem is an internationally based player won’t come here on a one year contract if they have to move their family etc. But the most we should offer was is a two year with option of another year in our favour.

I'm aware of that. But why not offer a 2 year contract with an option of another year?

If we feel obliged to willingly offer 3 year contracts to signings that either no one else wants or ones with more risk attached than most, then that in itself proves the fundamental flaw I'm talking about.

 

[KenilworthSkyBlue]

Let's be honest, injury records mean nothing in football. You'd think they would, but they don't. We have proven that with signing Jobello who'd done 2 ACLs and giving Jones a contract again after 3 ACLS

They really do. Especially when the player in question is very much the wrong side of 30.

 

[larry_david]

They really do. Especially when the player in question is very much the wrong side of 30.

Aye well let's see come summer how Kelly gets on. I'd imagine a few teams will give him a contract if he's made available.

 

[KenilworthSkyBlue]

Aye well let's see come summer how Kelly gets on. I'd imagine a few teams will give him a contract if he's made available.

He won't have any issue getting a contract. That isn't the problem here.

The fact it's more than likely we'll have to mutually terminate his existing contract in order to facilitate a move is what's the issue.

 

[larry_david]

Who out of the U/23s need clearing out ?

Happy to hear your opinion on the youngsters but from the outside looking in you'd argue N'gandu, Finnegan, Aaron Evans-Harriet or Harriet-evans, cant remember which way round it is.

Bapaga i still have hopes for, he did well for Grimsby before something happened behind the scenes.
Rowe hasn't started for Ayr yet since he went there.
Grendel has pointed out a few times that Drysdale won't make it with us and the fact he's not started for Ross County for over 2 months suggest that is the case.
I have high hopes for Jack Burroughs even though he's not started for Ross County in about 6 months either but he does get called upon from the bench, i'm assuming his lack of a permanent position is working against him as he's called upon to play where is needed.

SO in a nutshell i'm not sure but you'd imagine N'gandu, Finnegan, Aaron Evans-harriet and Rowe will be surplus, plus Cashman who has done naf all for a really poor Rochdale team.

Highest regarded being Howley, J and G Burroughs, Magrath, Reid, Bapaga and Nee, Bilson and Tyler in GK.
Whatever the outcome, it's not exactly going to save loads off the wage bill and you can argue we've not really had a successful loan away this season.

 

[KenilworthSkyBlue]

Happy to hear your opinion on the youngsters but from the outside looking in you'd argue N'gandu, Finnegan, Aaron Evans-Harriet or Harriet-evans, cant remember which way round it is.

Bapaga i still have hopes for, he did well for Grimsby before something happened behind the scenes.
Rowe hasn't started for Ayr yet since he went there.
Grendel has pointed out a few times that Drysdale won't make it with us and the fact he's not started for Ross County for over 2 months suggest that is the case.
I have high hopes for Jack Burroughs even though he's not started for Ross County in about 6 months either but he does get called upon from the bench, i'm assuming his lack of a permanent position is working against him as he's called upon to play where is needed.

SO in a nutshell i'm not sure but you'd imagine N'gandu, Finnegan, Aaron Evans-harriet and Rowe will be surplus, plus Cashman who has done naf all for a really poor Rochdale team.

Highest regarded being Howley, J and G Burroughs, Magrath, Reid, Bapaga and Nee, Bilson and Tyler in GK.
Whatever the outcome, it's not exactly going to save loads off the wage bill and you can argue we've not really had a successful loan away this season.

A clear out of the U23s will have zero impact on the first team budget I'd imagine, as the two budgets will be kept totally separate.

 

[Grendel]

Let's be honest, injury records mean nothing in football. You'd think they would, but they don't. We have proven that with signing Jobello who'd done 2 ACLs and giving Jones a contract again after 3 ACLS

a league 1 club would not sign Kelly on those wages.

 

[Earlsdon_Skyblue1]

Understand your position but I think you're massively underestimating how difficult recruitment is.

Every single transfer you make is a risk. There is no guaranteed successes even when buying elite talent (think Torres & Shevchenko to Chelsea, Alexis Sanchez to United etc.) but largely buying proven quality = lower risk but naturally = bigger outlays.

Clubs with less budget, such as ourselves, are trying to buy players that can compete in one of the toughest leagues in the world for very little outlay. Naturally this means that the risk on every single transfer is even greater so in truth you'd expect the majority of them to fail. Of the names you list only 3 were even signed to play at this level.

So there will always be missteps but just bagging one Sam McCallum, one Gus Hamer or one Viktor Gyökeres more than covers the outlay on the "failures" & if you look at our record under the current recruitment structure it's nothing short of exceptional that a team with so little spent on it can even compete at this level.
Do you not think it's pretty decent that a squad assembled for a total transfer fee outlay of approx. £4m can be contesting a playoff place?
Some teams in this league pay that to a single player in a year.

You are right that there are other clubs that do it well too but I guarantee you they have also made signings that haven't quite cut the mustard too & I'd wager they spent far more on them in the process.


P.S. What level is Kastaneer playing at now?

Kastaneer is about to be relegated from the Dutch top flight actually. Anyone I have spoken to about him here has largely laughed when his name has come up. 25 appearances in 28 games, zero goals, zero assists. PEC Zwolle are the fodder of the league with 5 wins.

He was a shite signing and I think whilst you make some good points about the difficulties of recruitment, there is an argument to be made that many of our signings made in the last few seasons have flopped. I will probably go through the list again at the end of the season, but whilst I think you obviously need to gamble sometimes, having a budget like ours means the margin for error is very small. I think there is room for improvement in this department certainly.

 

[Earlsdon_Skyblue1]

It was always going to be defined by that as when you have a scatter-gun approach to offering long term contracts to players then you're going to get yourself into a situation whereby a sizeable chunk of your budget is going to be used up by deadwood.

This is why I don't necessarily by the fact that we've got a small squad due to lack of budget. We've got a small squad because at present we have nearly 10 players under contract that aren't anywhere near up to the standard required and therefore make little to no contribution on the pitch. Obviously investment would be great but the lack of it is used as a bit of a scapegoat at times.

In order to mitigate this we need to utilise the budget better and to do that, far more diligence needs to be enacted when offering contracts to players as there just seems to be no strategy in place. Offering a 3-year contract to Jobello for instance and then offering then same to Hamer is just bizarre.

I totally agree. We have a lot of deadwood considering the tight budget that we are operating under.

Obviously every club has some players that don´t work out, but we are overloaded on that ratio. If hypothetically we shipped out 8 of those players, we could bring in 3 or 4 who are up to the level. That would give us a strong first team and bench.

Getting the balance is hard, I know, but there is room for improvement.

 

[Sick Boy]

Slight twist on the same theme…

If we had to sell two to keep one… who would you sell?

(obviously out of O’Hare, Gyok and Gus)

For me, I keep Gus.

Keep CoH.

 

[shmmeee]

I totally agree. We have a lot of deadwood considering the tight budget that we are operating under.

Obviously every club has some players that don´t work out, but we are overloaded on that ratio. If hypothetically we shipped out 8 of those players, we could bring in 3 or 4 who are up to the level. That would give us a strong first team and bench.

Getting the balance is hard, I know, but there is room for improvement.

Only five of the deadwood are on Championshop contracts (Kelly, Waghorn, Walker, Dacosta and Hilßner), the others it’s more likely to be 4 out 1 in. And I doubt Dacosta and Hilßner are on similar to Walker, Kelly and Waghorn.

All about finding a home for those three IMO.

 

[Grendel]

Only five of the deadwood are on Championshop contracts (Kelly, Waghorn, Walker, Dacosta and Hilßner), the others it’s more likely to be 4 out 1 in. And I doubt Dacosta and Hilßner are on similar to Walker, Kelly and Waghorn.

All about finding a home for those three IMO.

they are all on championship contracts. The wage hike across the squad was 40% before any signings this season

 

[Terry Gibson's perm]

A clear out of the U23s will have zero impact on the first team budget I'd imagine, as the two budgets will be kept totally separate.

I would imagine even if that’s the case the club has an overall budget and it will come out of that.

It’s no good having a squad of thirty or whatever if some are never ever going to play.

 

[KenilworthSkyBlue]

I would imagine even if that’s the case the club has an overall budget and it will come out of that.

It’s no good having a squad of thirty or whatever if some are never ever going to play.

Yes but there will be a specific budget out of the overall budget that will be designated to the U23s in order for them to compete.

So again, no U23 outgoings will have any baring whatsoever on the first team budget.