USSR invades Ukraine. (18 Viewers)

[shmmeee]

We could stop funding the cunts.

Its frankly disgraceful that western governments are saying all the right things but continue to pump billions of euros into the russian war machine on a daily basis......

It appears we care......but not actually enough to suffer any economic hit & inconvenience of not importing russian oil & gas.

We aren’t particularly reliant, but seeing Tory MPs still spouting bollocks about wind farms drives me up the wall. The climate agenda has always also been the stable energy prices and lack of reliance of rogue states agenda and our political system is full of useful idiots.

 

---

[Mcbean]

Oil is the biggie but for UK we can wean ourselves off Russian oil and gas quite quickly but fit Germany and France up to 60% dependent not so easy to just turn it off as prices would go up considerably and their economies would suffer extensively - Hungary also is pretty dependent and although orban has welcomed Ukrainians he hasn’t dissed Putin

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

Oil is the biggie but for UK we can wean ourselves off Russian oil and gas quite quickly but fit Germany and France up to 60% dependent not so easy to just turn it off as prices would go up considerably and their economies would suffer extensively - Hungary also is pretty dependent and although orban has welcomed Ukrainians he hasn’t dissed Putin

We can’t if we have to share our access to norways oil with the eu once contracts finish, that’s the only reason we’re not utterly dependent like our European partners

 

[Philosoraptor]

Completely agree.

I would just make one small point; there's a strong argument that says NATO engaging, even in a limited form, with Russia in Ukraine starts WW3. However in Vietnam, US and Russian forces were in effect directly engaged in aerial battles in particular, and that didn't end up escalating.

Different place, different time, I know, but I just wanted to point out that there is some history that tells a different story.

Spheres of influence. Vietnam wasn't part of the former USSR.

Vietnam was about ideological differences and the domino effect in that region of the world.

Ukraine, as Russia sees it, is virtually home soil.

Very different ball game.

 

[jimmyhillsfanclub]

The EU has spent over 35 billion just on russian energy alone since the war began!

Thats more than 35 times the amount the EU have given Ukraine in aid since the war began!

...and thats just the energy cash.....France, for example, are the largest foreign employer in Russia by a mile with the likes of Renault, Danone, Total Energy, Sanofi still operating & profiting as far as I'm aware....

Macron may like dressing up like mini action-man for a photo shoot but its blood-stained business as usual.....

 

[Philosoraptor]

There is also the defence of Moscow. Belarus and Ukraine are strategic in location to how Moscow have defended themselves from attack since ww2.

They have always tried to put a buffer zone between themselves and Europe.

It is also why Finland has never officially joined Nato.

Seems a bit of a balancing act.

 

[Deleted member 9744]

There is also the defence of Moscow. Belarus and Ukraine are strategic in location to how Moscow have defended themselves from attack since ww2.

They have always tried to put a buffer zone between themselves and Europe.

It is also why Finland has never officially joined Nato.

Seems a bit of a balancing act.

View attachment 24323

All very well but you can't just decide that independent countries should be your buffer zone. Yes I know that that is what has happened historically but it doesn't mean it's right.

 

[duffer]

Spheres of influence. Vietnam wasn't part of the former USSR.

Vietnam was about ideological differences and the domino effect in that region of the world.

Ukraine, as Russia sees it, is virtually home soil.

Very different ball game.

I absolutely agree that it's different, and yet there were still Russian soldiers shooting at US airmen and vice versa.

I still think NATO's weakness here is ruling things out; that's just a green light to Putin. At the moment we're paralysed by our fear of his weaponry, whilst he sees no threat from ours.

Unless there's a giant conspiracy in play, we are literally standing by whilst hideous crimes are being perpetrated by Russia, against thousands of men, women and children, in the heart of Europe.

To my mind we simply have to do more; if we're too scared to engage directly then we at least have to make every possible effort to support Ukraine.

 

[duffer]

There is also the defence of Moscow. Belarus and Ukraine are strategic in location to how Moscow have defended themselves from attack since ww2.

They have always tried to put a buffer zone between themselves and Europe.

It is also why Finland has never officially joined Nato.

Seems a bit of a balancing act.

View attachment 24323

And because of the madness of Putin, Finland is now very likely to join NATO, and the Baltic republics will be substantially reinforced.

Ukraine isn't really about getting a buffer zone back, it's about putting the old Soviet Union back together, imho, something that Putin's made no great secret about wanting.

I suspect he also didn't like seeing a thriving democracy in place just next door; an example to his own population that he didn't like, and a country that was turning away from his influence.

Putin's a clever man, by all accounts, did he or anyone else ever really think that there was any appetite in the west for invading Russia, given all its nuclear weapons and huge military?

That seems unlikely to me, I think the buffer against possible invasion threat falls a bit flat; this is more about regaining control of something he couldn't bear to lose.

 

[shmmeee]

I

And because of the madness of Putin, Finland is now very likely to join NATO, and the Baltic republics will be substantially reinforced.

Ukraine isn't really about getting a buffer zone back, it's about putting the old Soviet Union back together, imho, something that Putin's made no great secret about wanting.

I suspect he also didn't like seeing a thriving democracy in place just next door; an example to his own population that he didn't like, and a country that was turning away from his influence.

Putin's a clever man, by all accounts, did he or anyone else ever really think that there was any appetite in the west for invading Russia, given all its nuclear weapons and huge military?

That seems unlikely to me, I think the buffer against possible invasion threat falls a bit flat; this is more about regaining control of something he couldn't bear to lose.

The buffer argument is never ending. No matter where Russias borders are they’ll want to take over the neighbours for a buffer by that logic.

 

[Philosoraptor]

All very well but you can't just decide that independent countries should be your buffer zone. Yes I know that that is what has happened historically but it doesn't mean it's right.

I'll reply to this one first, and you are absolutely correct.

Self-determination is the cornerstone for any commonwealth.

 

[Philosoraptor]

I suspect he also didn't like seeing a thriving democracy in place just next door; an example to his own population that he didn't like, and a country that was turning away from his influence.

There have been obvious issues in Ukraine with the path the people want to take. The west of the country being on large more western looking than the east.

This can lead to a tyranny of the masses.

What do you do when large population centres are fundamentally opposed to the direction of travel a commonwealth has taken?

There is an issue though when people want to leave a commonwealth. Tyranny of the majority and all that.

How can a democracy flourish when corruption is rife?

Corruption in Ukraine - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

There have been obvious issues in Ukraine with the path the people want to take. The west of the country being on large more western looking than the east.

This can lead to a tyranny of the masses.

What do you do when large population centres are fundamentally opposed to the direction of travel a commonwealth has taken?

There is an issue though when people want to leave a commonwealth. Tyranny of the majority and all that.

How can a democracy flourish when corruption is rife?

Corruption in Ukraine - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Ask grendel about the uk and johnson

 

[Philosoraptor]

That's a decent write-up.

Defining Democracy: Tyranny of the Majority - Renew Democracy Initiative

Defining Democracy: Tyranny of the Majority “Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what they are going to have for lunch.” —Benjamin Franklin Aristocracy, Oligarchy, Democracy, Tyranny. From best to worst, this is the order in which regimes degrade, as described by Socrates in Plato’s...

rdi.org

 

[duffer]

There have been obvious issues in Ukraine with the path the people want to take. The west of the country being on large more western looking than the east.

This can lead to a tyranny of the masses.

What do you do when large population centres are fundamentally opposed to the direction of travel a commonwealth has taken?

There is an issue though when people want to leave a commonwealth. Tyranny of the majority and all that.

How can a democracy flourish when corruption is rife?

Corruption in Ukraine - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Hold up a moment.

Are you implying that the current government of Ukraine weren't legitimately elected?

And if so, are you saying that that in any way justifies what Russia is doing right now?

There's a world of difference between corruption, which it at least appears Ukraine was trying to sort out, and the taking of a sovereign nation by force.

As far as 'tyranny of the majority' goes, it's actually far from clear what the Eastern regions of Ukraine would have chosen, even in a free and fair referendum...

2014 Donbas status referendums - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

I think this is dancing on the head of a pin, frankly. The tyranny of the majority might be an interesting theoretical construct, but right now I'd have to assume that no one would vote to be tortured, raped, or killed by an invading army.

 

[shmmeee]

There have been obvious issues in Ukraine with the path the people want to take. The west of the country being on large more western looking than the east.

This can lead to a tyranny of the masses.

What do you do when large population centres are fundamentally opposed to the direction of travel a commonwealth has taken?

There is an issue though when people want to leave a commonwealth. Tyranny of the majority and all that.

How can a democracy flourish when corruption is rife?

Corruption in Ukraine - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Top Putin stanning. There’s no evidence those in the East want out but crack on, I’m sure there’s a job at RT waiting.

 

[Philosoraptor]

Hold up a moment.

Are you implying that the current government of Ukraine weren't legitimately elected?

No.

 

[David O'Day]

Top Putin stanning. There’s no evidence those in the East want out but crack on, I’m sure there’s a job at RT waiting.

Good old philo and reality have been at best in a long distance relationship.

Most people in separatist-held areas of Donbas prefer reintegration with Ukraine – new survey

What do the people of the Donbas want for their future?

theconversation.com

 

[Philosoraptor]

Hold up a moment.



As far as 'tyranny of the majority' goes, it's actually far from clear what the Eastern regions of Ukraine would have chosen, even in a free and fair referendum...

2014 Donbas status referendums - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

The issue as I see it is that most governments don't like the idea of countries breaking up.

Didn't the people of Catalan do the same and the same arguments were made there?

Reactions to the 2017 Catalan independence referendum - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Earlsdon_Skyblue1]

The issue as I see it is that most governments don't like the idea of countries breaking up.

Didn't the people of Catalan do the same and the same arguments were made there?

Reactions to the 2017 Catalan independence referendum - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Oh lord, if we are getting into the Catalan Independence debacle we are going to need another thread!

 

[duffer]

The issue as I see it is that most governments don't like the idea of countries breaking up.

Didn't the people of Catalan do the same and the same arguments were made there?

Reactions to the 2017 Catalan independence referendum - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

So, other than the fact that the Catalonian referendum had a clear result in favour of independence, and that the vote wasn't subject to foreign interference, and that Spain hasn't been invaded by another country using it as an excuse to commit brutal war crimes, I'd agree that the situation is exactly like Ukraine.

I'm sure it isn't your intention to try to justify Putin's actions, but it does kind of read that way.

There is no parallel here with Catalonia. There is no possible justification for what's happening in Ukraine.

Rather than searching for some kind of philosophical escape room where we can close our eyes and forget about it, we need to face up to what's going on and decide what we can do to help.

 

[jimmyhillsfanclub]

Ukranian forces video'd executing russian conscripts with hands bound.....and now a Russian rocket attack on a train station full of folks fleeing eastern Ukraine.....

There will be war, conflict & terrorist acts along that border for decades to come.....what a fucking world eh.

 

[tisza]

Ukranian forces video'd executing russian conscripts with hands bound.....and now a Russian rocket attack on a train station full of folks fleeing eastern Ukraine.....

There will be war, conflict & terrorist acts along that border for decades to come.....what a fucking world eh.

Getting so desperate.
All sorts of "unsavoury" elements being brought in by both sides- Chechynians, Syrains, mercenaries, new neo-Nazi groups from Russia - none of whom are worried about the likes of the Geneva convention etc.

 

[RegTheDonk]

There is also the defence of Moscow. Belarus and Ukraine are strategic in location to how Moscow have defended themselves from attack since ww2.

They have always tried to put a buffer zone between themselves and Europe.

It is also why Finland has never officially joined Nato.

Seems a bit of a balancing act.

View attachment 24323

Bit of an outdated policy IMHO. ICBMs don't wait at check points or borders.

Annoyed that Putin uses this weak excuse as something else to try and justfify his atrocities . Don't matter if they're launced from Latvia or London, they do the same job.

 

[PVA]

What could possibly go wrong

 

[Otis]

What could possibly go wrong

You would think zero training wouldn't you.

Here's your rifle, go shoot people.

 

[tisza]

You would think zero training wouldn't you.

Here's your rifle, go shoot people.

Basically what Ukraine has done. Anyone over 16 issued with a weapon. Only real difference is more training probably needed for an offensive action.
Reports here of Russia's own neo- nazi groups being rearmed and sent back to Donbas.

 

[Otis]

Basically what Ukraine has done. Anyone over 16 issued with a weapon. Only real difference is more training probably needed for an offensive action.
Reports here of Russia's own neo- nazi groups being rearmed and sent back to Donbas.

Russia have Nazis too?

Who would have thunk it.

 

[duffer]

You would think zero training wouldn't you.

Here's your rifle, go shoot people.

If true, I suspect it would be a meat grinder. Conscript troops with little training and low morale going against a well organised and fiercely determined resistance. Friendly fire, desertion, self harm, even suicide. This is exactly what happened to the Russians in Afghanistan.

Apparently one in four Russian casualties in that war were because of friendly fire or suicide (Source: BBC witness history)

I don't think anyone knows the true figures, but it's been said that Russian casualties in Ukraine already exceed those in the ten years of war in Afghanistan. That war helped cause the demise of the old Soviet Union, will this one bring down Putin?

 

[shmmeee]

Anyone thinking Russia means the Azov Battalion when they talk about Nazis needs to read this. Russia is very clear when they say “Nazi” they mean “Ukrainian”

Russia's genocide handbook

The evidence of atrocity and of intent mounts

snyder.substack.com

 

[Flying Fokker]

Ukraine war: Putin loses NINTH colonel as tank commander becomes latest Russian officer to be killed | Daily Mail Online

 

[duffer]

Anyone thinking Russia means the Azov Battalion when they talk about Nazis needs to read this. Russia is very clear when they say “Nazi” they mean “Ukrainian”

Russia's genocide handbook

The evidence of atrocity and of intent mounts

snyder.substack.com

The full Russian propaganda piece, directly translated into English, is below. If it's any kind of true reflection of what Putin believes, it's frightening.

 

[tisza]

The full Russian propaganda piece, directly translated into English, is below. If it's any kind of true reflection of what Putin believes, it's frightening.

If the translation is accurate then this is a truly appalling statement about the intentions of the Russian leadership. Arguments about the levels of casualities needed to meet the definition of genocide are spurious when the intentions and methodology of the Russian leadership are laid out in this mannner.
Issues like the re-education of people, slave labour etc take us into to the darkest days of authoritarian regimes. Comes as no surprise considering how many Russians still hold Stalin in high regard despite his track record on oppression.

 

[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

If the translation is accurate then this is a truly appalling statement about the intentions of the Russian leadership. Arguments about the levels of casualities needed to meet the definition of genocide are spurious when the intentions and methodology of the Russian leadership are laid out in this mannner.
Issues like the re-education of people, slave labour etc take us into to the darkest days of authoritarian regimes. Comes as no surprise considering how many Russians still hold Stalin in high regard despite his track record on oppression.

Stalin has had a bit of a image renaissance in Russia in recent years. Unsurprisingly while Putin has been in power. It's not an accident.

 

[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

The full Russian propaganda piece, directly translated into English, is below. If it's any kind of true reflection of what Putin believes, it's frightening.

More horseshit there than at today's Grand National.

It was almost a case of 'how many times can we mention the word Nazi. If it were a drinking game, everyone who decided to play would be dead.

Also amazing the lack of irony in them talking about banning anything that doesn't agree with their line of thinking in the same sentence as claiming they will remove fascism from Ukraine.