Do you want to discuss boring politics? (45 Viewers)

[clint van damme]

Starmer refusing to answer questions ad he got on the train reminded me of Johnson hiding in the fridge.

This and last nights results will have Ed Davey chuckling away on his yoga mat.

 

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[skybluetony176]

I’m genuinely surprised that people expect Starmer and Johnson* to resign based on the polices interpretation of two potential breaches. As far as I’m aware both gatherings were with work colleagues so as I say this comes down to polices interpretation of the rules and whether they have been broken. I’m not condoning either but resign ?!

If we lost the PM and leader of the opposition due to this, with the issues we as a country and the wider world are facing, I personally think it would be crazy

*talking only about ‘birthday’ FPN. As I’ve said before there might well be far clearer cut cases to consider and also the matter of potentially lying to parliament, both of which might justifiably lead to calls for resignation.

It doesn’t just come down to police interpretation. There were 2 very distinct different set of rules. The Downing Street parties took place in spring 2020 when we were in complete lockdown. Beergate happened in 2021 when we were in the tier system and tier 2 was the being the second most lenient.

There’s also the small matter that only one of them lied in parliament about it.

There’s also the small matter that at least one of them is a repeat offender, how bad we’ll start finding out next week I guess.

Also I don’t think it’s wrong to hold politicians, especially those on the front benches, to the highest standards. Boris agreed with that apparently when he made MHancock resign (I know he didn’t but that’s what he was trying to claim at the time). I don’t think either should resign as MP’s but they should resign from the front benches never to return.

 

[Liquid Gold]

I’m genuinely surprised that people expect Starmer and Johnson* to resign based on the polices interpretation of two potential breaches. As far as I’m aware both gatherings were with work colleagues so as I say this comes down to polices interpretation of the rules and whether they have been broken. I’m not condoning either but resign ?!

If we lost the PM and leader of the opposition due to this, with the issues we as a country and the wider world are facing, I personally think it would be crazy

*talking only about ‘birthday’ FPN. As I’ve said before there might well be far clearer cut cases to consider and also the matter of potentially lying to parliament, both of which might justifiably lead to calls for resignation.

I think we'd be better off. They both seem absolute shit shows (to different degrees).

Bin them off now and lets get someone that is capable of leading us through this shit and someone that can hold them to account.

 

[skybluetony176]

Also think @Brighton Sky Blue was right , the UK is on the verge as sinn fein are now the biggest party in Northern Ireland for the first time ever

I suppose the tories will be the party that fucked the union after all

If the trend keeps going with the results that are in so far the DUP might not even be the second largest party in power. So far the Alliance Party are neck and neck with them. Sinn Fein are romping it.

 

[Liquid Gold]

If SF get anywhere near a majority on both sides of the border its surely only a matter of time before a poll.

 

[Deleted member 5849]

I’m genuinely surprised that people expect Starmer and Johnson* to resign based on the polices interpretation of two potential breaches. As far as I’m aware both gatherings were with work colleagues so as I say this comes down to polices interpretation of the rules and whether they have been broken. I’m not condoning either but resign ?!

If we lost the PM and leader of the opposition due to this, with the issues we as a country and the wider world are facing, I personally think it would be crazy

*talking only about ‘birthday’ FPN. As I’ve said before there might well be far clearer cut cases to consider and also the matter of potentially lying to parliament, both of which might justifiably lead to calls for resignation.

One of them set the rules, one of them is former DPP. If they don't know what the rules are, then no bugger should!

 

[duffer]

I’m genuinely surprised that people expect Starmer and Johnson* to resign based on the polices interpretation of two potential breaches. As far as I’m aware both gatherings were with work colleagues so as I say this comes down to polices interpretation of the rules and whether they have been broken. I’m not condoning either but resign ?!

If we lost the PM and leader of the opposition due to this, with the issues we as a country and the wider world are facing, I personally think it would be crazy

*talking only about ‘birthday’ FPN. As I’ve said before there might well be far clearer cut cases to consider and also the matter of potentially lying to parliament, both of which might justifiably lead to calls for resignation.

Entirely respect the way you make your point mate, but I'm afraid I still differ hugely.

The first thing I'd say is that we're not in an existential crisis, so using that as a reason to avoid action against either Starmer or Johnson, doesn't stack up, imho.

Secondly both of them are holders of high public office and they have to be held to the highest standards. It is not acceptable for them to break the very laws that they have both insisted the rest of us should follow (often at great emotional cost to those who did).

Whether I agree or disagree with their politics is academic; Starmer was absolutely right to call for Johnson's resignation, and conversely Johnson would be right to do the same if Starmer is found similarly guilty.

There is no grey area here in my opinion, both parties are free to argue their case in court if they believe no offence was committed. If they accept their guilt then they have to step down.

 

[Liquid Gold]

Entirely respect the way you make your point mate, but I'm afraid I still differ hugely.

The first thing I'd say is that we're not in an existential crisis, so using that as a reason to avoid action against either Starmer or Johnson, doesn't stack up, imho.

Secondly both of them are holders of high public office and they have to be held to the highest standards. It is not acceptable for them to break the very laws that they have both insisted the rest of us should follow (often at great emotional cost to those who did).

Whether I agree or disagree with their politics is academic; Starmer was absolutely right to call for Johnson's resignation, and conversely Johnson would be right to do the same if Starmer is found similarly guilty.

There is no grey area here in my opinion, both parties are free to argue their case in court if they believe no offence was committed. If they accept their guilt then they have to step down.

A crisis should never be an obstacle anyway. WW2 was the biggest existential crisis we ever had and we found time for a leadership election that allowed us to get in the man that had a big hand in winning the war.

Get the right person in no matter the time.

 

[CCFCSteve]

One of them set the rules, one of them is former DPP. If they don't know what the rules are, then no bugger should!

That’s kind of my point though NW…these situations are in the grey area. The BYO booze or bussing people in for a party are very different in my opinion. These two situations currently being discussed are down to interpretation

 

[duffer]

A crisis should never be an obstacle anyway. WW2 was the biggest existential crisis we ever had and we found time for a leadership election that allowed us to get in the man that had a big hand in winning the war.

Get the right person in no matter the time.

Exactly this.

Possibly worth mentioning that Parliament pretty much spends longer in recess than the schools do in holidays, rarely sits at all on Fridays, and the Prime Minister sees fit to avoid even parliamentary 'urgent questions' and COBRA meetings when he's "busy" elsewhere.

The critical crisis that we're apparently currently in the middle of doesn't seem to be changing any of those behaviours.

 

[duffer]

That’s kind of my point though NW…these situations are in the grey area. The BYO booze or bussing people in for a party are very different in my opinion. These two situations currently being discussed are down to interpretation

The law is down to interpretation by the Police and courts, surely.

For Boris they've done that already (at least in part) and he's accepted his guilt. There's no reason why Starmer shouldn't be subjected to the same level of enquiry, is there?

 

[skybluetony176]

If SF get anywhere near a majority on both sides of the border its surely only a matter of time before a poll.

They’re already the most popular party in the south, just not enough to win a majority and the other two main parties in the south came together in an coalition to take power at the last Ireland GE.

The more pertinent question is what happens if the Alliance Party comes second. The system is currently set up on the assumption that NI is split into 2 designations Protestant and Catholic. The designation with the most votes will appoint the first minister, so it’s looking like Sinn Fein. Then the other designation will pick the deputy first minister. However the Alliance Party is neutral so doesn’t fit into the existing designations, they’re a third designation that wasn’t accounted for at the time the system was set up. The DUP has already said it won’t go into power sharing while the NI protocol is in place, basically they’re going to stop the NI assembly assembling. Now for the twist. As I understand it if the APNI finishes second they can challenge the system in court and one possible outcome is they get to pick the deputy first minister and the assembly will sit despite the DUP’s hissy fit.

However that outcome seems less likely now than it did before polling day. On the run up the DUP and APNI were polling neck and neck with their share of the votes but thus far on first preference votes APNI are trailing the DUP in share of votes. Could just mean staunch Protestant areas have completed counting first preference votes quickly so at the moment the figures are skewed or it might mean that the DUP are doing better than expected once people are actually casting their votes. A clearer picture will appear tomorrow when all first preference votes are counted and counting on second, third etc preference votes are being counted where required.

 

[Deleted member 5849]

That’s kind of my point though NW…these situations are in the grey area. The BYO booze or bussing people in for a party are very different in my opinion. These two situations currently being discussed are down to interpretation

Ask yourself these two questions.

If and when Johnson is found to have flouted more rules (that he made!) do you think he'd go?

Do you think he and his acolytes... and also a significant portion of the electorate, would equate different forms of breaking the rules, with some more valid than others... or do yout think any breaking of the rules would be used as justification for Johnson to remain?

It won't matter what Sue Gray writes, it won't matter what the grey areas are - if Starmer is hit with a fine, he'll be totally unable to hold government to account on this issue and others if *he* stays.

There's a long line building up for Johnson, and in some way it'd end up all as bad as each other in a comparison between having a beer, and acting unlawfully in releasing people back into care homes. Somewhere, standards have to be adhered to, so that people keep what little faith they have in politicians, or regain some small amount of trust. The current joke in power shows no sign of caring about that, so it's up to the Leader of the Opposition to hold the mirror to that. If that means resigning for a perceived small misdemeanour, then that's for the greater good really. We can't allow the current disgrace to drag the office down any more than he has already, regardless of political persuasion, as the ramifications down the line go further than just whether a man had a birthday party or not.

 

[clint van damme]

Fucks sake!

 

[Earlsdon_Skyblue1]

It doesn't matter to me what party you are a part of. If you are a politician and were found breaking the rules during the restrictive measures then that is completely unacceptable in my view and you should go/be gone. Johnson, Starmer, whoever.

If he hadn't done anything wrong then I don't think we would be seeing such awkward behaviour from Starmer. It gives me the impression he could be in trouble. That of course would then mean that the leaders of both the two main parties have been breaking the rules when others were suffering, which is a total disgrace. God help us.

 

[skybluetony176]

Ask yourself these two questions.

If and when Johnson is found to have flouted more rules (that he made!) do you think he'd go?

Do you think he and his acolytes... and also a significant portion of the electorate, would equate different forms of breaking the rules, with some more valid than others... or do yout think any breaking of the rules would be used as justification for Johnson to remain?

It won't matter what Sue Gray writes, it won't matter what the grey areas are - if Starmer is hit with a fine, he'll be totally unable to hold government to account on this issue and others if *he* stays.

There's a long line building up for Johnson, and in some way it'd end up all as bad as each other in a comparison between having a beer, and acting unlawfully in releasing people back into care homes. Somewhere, standards have to be adhered to, so that people keep what little faith they have in politicians, or regain some small amount of trust. The current joke in power shows no sign of caring about that, so it's up to the Leader of the Opposition to hold the mirror to that. If that means resigning for a perceived small misdemeanour, then that's for the greater good really. We can't allow the current disgrace to drag the office down any more than he has already, regardless of political persuasion, as the ramifications down the line go further than just whether a man had a birthday party or not.

This

 

[Deleted member 5849]

As an aside, why the hell are various police forces not announcing who's been fined for other parties, and not announcing they're investigating again, before an election so as not to influence it? I can just about buy the not saying you're investigating, as it's innocent until guilty and all that, but if they've fined people and done that before an election, surely we deserve to know who has, or hasn't been, before deciding whether to vote for them or not?!?

Charitably, if Johnson *hasn't* been fined for anything else and the decision has been made, surely people deserve to know *that* too?!?

 

[Liquid Gold]

They’re already the most popular party in the south, just not enough to win a majority and the other two main parties in the south came together in an coalition to take power at the last Ireland GE.

The more pertinent question is what happens if the Alliance Party comes second. The system is currently set up on the assumption that NI is split into 2 designations Protestant and Catholic. The designation with the most votes will appoint the first minister, so it’s looking like Sinn Fein. Then the other designation will pick the deputy first minister. However the Alliance Party is neutral so doesn’t fit into the existing designations, they’re a third designation that wasn’t accounted for at the time the system was set up. The DUP has already said it won’t go into power sharing while the NI protocol is in place, basically they’re going to stop the NI assembly assembling. Now for the twist. As I understand it if the APNI finishes second they can challenge the system in court and one possible outcome is they get to pick the deputy first minister and the assembly will sit despite the DUP’s hissy fit.

However that outcome seems less likely now than it did before polling day. On the run up the DUP and APNI were polling neck and neck with their share of the votes but thus far on first preference votes APNI are trailing the DUP in share of votes. Could just mean staunch Protestant areas have completed counting first preference votes quickly so at the moment the figures are skewed or it might mean that the DUP are doing better than expected once people are actually casting their votes. A clearer picture will appear tomorrow when all first preference votes are counted and counting on second, third etc preference votes are being counted where required.

Excluding the DUP from anything seems like a recipe for violence if I'm honest.

 

[skybluetony176]

Excluding the DUP from anything seems like a recipe for violence if I'm honest.

They’ll be patches in the staunchest of Protestant area’s for sure. However, sectarianism violence is becoming an old man’s game and dying out. It’s almost 30 years since the Downing Street declaration and IRA ceasefire and almost 25 years since the GFA. NI has more than a generation that were either too young to remember the troubles or born after the troubles. So basically a whole generation who have a completely different mindset and set of priorities to the ones that went before them. Most of them eligible to vote also and it’s showing in the polls.

 

[duffer]

As an aside, why the hell are various police forces not announcing who's been fined for other parties, and not announcing they're investigating again, before an election so as not to influence it? I can just about buy the not saying you're investigating, as it's innocent until guilty and all that, but if they've fined people and done that before an election, surely we deserve to know who has, or hasn't been, before deciding whether to vote for them or not?!?

Charitably, if Johnson *hasn't* been fined for anything else and the decision has been made, surely people deserve to know *that* too?!?

Absolutely. It's ridiculous, frankly, and makes the police look terrible. The Met appear, not for the first time in their history, to be delaying their own investigation for political reasons. It stinks.

 

[Johnnythespider]

Do you not realise that the shouty pile ons attemping to oppress any views that aren't your own, are in part responsible for the more stubborn to likely to nail their colours to the mast.

Some of the racists rightly excluded from the site, but so little argument from anyone right of centre now on here, that this has become so much an echo chamber now and increasingly futile swimming against the tide.

Fwiw my take on yesterday's polling ... I'd say what's happening after the perceived issues with the government, that the general apathy in voters even now not motivated enough to get out and vote should worry you more than those who did vote Conservative.

It could be argued that the centre has moved so far to the right, the only people still right of the centre arguing that viewpoint is yourself and a few other lifelong tories.

 

[Johnnythespider]

It isn’t really yes the construction of the seats are different but in 2019 the tories lost 1,300 council seats.

Parties, rising inflation, cost of living, dodgy MPs - yet people couldn’t be bothered to even make some sort of statement against the status quo

Maybe we want to hang on to hapless johnson until a general election

 

[David O'Day]

 

[David O'Day]

They’ll be patches in the staunchest of Protestant area’s for sure. However, sectarianism violence is becoming an old man’s game and dying out. It’s almost 30 years since the Downing Street declaration and IRA ceasefire and almost 25 years since the GFA. NI has more than a generation that we’re either too young to remember the troubles or born after the troubles. So basically a whole generation who have a completely different mindset and set of priorities to the ones that went before them. Most of them eligible to vote also and it’s showing in the polls.

the staunchest protestants are seeming switching to the tuv

 

[PVA]

Absolutely. It's ridiculous, frankly, and makes the police look terrible. The Met appear, not for the first time in their history, to be delaying their own investigation for political reasons. It stinks.

The Met are so deeply in cahoots with the government it's disgusting.

I'm pretty confident that Durham police are only reopening this investigation because of intense pressure from the government and right wing media.

 

[skybluetony176]

the staunchest protestants are seeming switching to the tuv

Getting mullered still. Only currently 4 unionist wins vs 16 republicans. APNI in coalition with an a couple of independents and greens could still make up the second biggest designation yet in NI. I fear the end is nigh for Northern Ireland, something I never expected to see in my lifetime. My dear old granny is spinning in her grave.

 

[eastwoodsdustman]

I’d avoid beer and curries if I was him

And cakes! Only difference between a cake and a curry is a media shitstorm.

 

[David O'Day]

Getting mullered still. Only currently 4 unionist wins vs 16 republicans. APNI in coalition with an a couple of independents and greens could still make up the second biggest designation yet in NI. I fear the end is nigh for Northern Ireland, something I never expected to see in my lifetime. My dear old granny is spinning in her grave.

the unionist don't seem to be able to work as a team

 

[PVA]

Here's Johnson just a few days after 'Beergate'

Where's the Daily Mail outrage at this?

Boris Johnson accused of breaking Covid rules with pint inside pub

The Prime Minister was pictured raising a pint inside a pub in Hartlepool - where he stayed for 45 minutes as supporters waited outside in the pouring rain

www.mirror.co.uk

 

[Grendel]

And cakes! Only difference between a cake and a curry is a media shitstorm.

Boris should have stuck to Popadoms

 

[skybluetony176]

the unionist don't seem to be able to work as a team

Never have. The DUP and UUP have always seemed to have despised each other almost as much as the republicans.

 

[Grendel]

Here's Johnson just a few days after 'Beergate'

Where's the Daily Mail outrage at this?

Boris Johnson accused of breaking Covid rules with pint inside pub

The Prime Minister was pictured raising a pint inside a pub in Hartlepool - where he stayed for 45 minutes as supporters waited outside in the pouring rain

www.mirror.co.uk

Oddly as that’s within the law the same as him having been presented with a cake at a school - if there is something wrong with it what’s wrong with the other cake and a 9 minute stay at an event at a registered place of work?

 

[CCFCSteve]

Ask yourself these two questions.

If and when Johnson is found to have flouted more rules (that he made!) do you think he'd go?

Do you think he and his acolytes... and also a significant portion of the electorate, would equate different forms of breaking the rules, with some more valid than others... or do yout think any breaking of the rules would be used as justification for Johnson to remain?

It won't matter what Sue Gray writes, it won't matter what the grey areas are - if Starmer is hit with a fine, he'll be totally unable to hold government to account on this issue and others if *he* stays.

There's a long line building up for Johnson, and in some way it'd end up all as bad as each other in a comparison between having a beer, and acting unlawfully in releasing people back into care homes. Somewhere, standards have to be adhered to, so that people keep what little faith they have in politicians, or regain some small amount of trust. The current joke in power shows no sign of caring about that, so it's up to the Leader of the Opposition to hold the mirror to that. If that means resigning for a perceived small misdemeanour, then that's for the greater good really. We can't allow the current disgrace to drag the office down any more than he has already, regardless of political persuasion, as the ramifications down the line go further than just whether a man had a birthday party or not.

I’ve said before I’m talking solely about these two specific instances. My point is I expect the police to uphold the law in the same way whoever they are investigating and as I’ve said before, I bet there were no other workplace fines during lockdown because they would come down to interpretation

People eating together in the office or in the work canteen ? Speaking to each other about personal matters over a coffee ? Where are the lines ? Some would view it one way, others another. This might be proven by Durham police making a call previously and potentially now having to make a different decision due to the Mets FPN for Johnson and Sunak

So Starmer resigns, Rayner resigns…id imagine plenty of other MPs will also be wondering if anything could come up about them if they worked with others during lockdown as the bar has been set so low. I just don’t see that as beneficial for the country

Starmer should’ve waited until investigations were complete and then he’d probably have had more than enough evidence against Johnson to maintain the moral high ground especially if Johnsons is found to have lied to parliament…may not even have needed to call for resignation as i think a confidence vote will come with more fines/grays report

 

[skybluetony176]

And cakes! Only difference between a cake and a curry is a media shitstorm.

And the tier of lockdown.

 

[Grendel]

How many people here at a work place have cracked open the beers had a Ruby then “got back to work”?