Do you want to discuss boring politics? (241 Viewers)

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Mick Lynch has been booked for QT tonight. Might be worth a watch.

Who else on the panel?

 

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[chiefdave]

The first ones couldn’t see that they owed success to a helping hand. The second couldn’t see that it wasn’t unfair for him to succeed-just that more didn’t have the same opportunity.

As with many things its finding a balance isn't it. I don't have a problem with people that want to work hard and do 20 hour days or constantly study to get some reward, the issue is the disparity.

For me anyone who is working full time, in whatever job, should be able to sustain a basic standard of living without relying on benefits, food banks etc. That's how it worked for my parents and grandparents. I have a 'better' job than my Dad or either of my Grandads but I can't afford anything like the standard of living they had and always have the feeling things could go south very quickly. That's not to say that they never had any struggles but bigger picture with one wage in the household they could afford a decent house, car, holiday every year etc.

The problem now is those at the top are getting richer at a ridiculous rate, and often have inheritance or family connections to thank more than hard work and ability, while the number of people struggling is ever increasing. Look at how working people are being pitched against each other, people saying rail employees shouldn't get a raise because teachers haven't and thinks like that, why is the thinking not everyone should get a raise so they can afford a basic standard of living.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

As with many things its finding a balance isn't it. I don't have a problem with people that want to work hard and do 20 hour days or constantly study to get some reward, the issue is the disparity.

For me anyone who is working full time, in whatever job, should be able to sustain a basic standard of living without relying on benefits, food banks etc. That's how it worked for my parents and grandparents. I have a 'better' job than my Dad or either of my Grandads but I can't afford anything like the standard of living they had and always have the feeling things could go south very quickly. That's not to say that they never had any struggles but bigger picture with one wage in the household they could afford a decent house, car, holiday every year etc.

The problem now is those at the top are getting richer at a ridiculous rate, and often have inheritance or family connections to thank more than hard work and ability, while the number of people struggling is ever increasing. Look at how working people are being pitched against each other, people saying rail employees shouldn't get a raise because teachers haven't and thinks like that, why is the thinking not everyone should get a raise so they can afford a basic standard of living.

The problem is people have forgotten just how much of their current working rights they owe to trade unions and the labour movement more generally. If nobody is acting collectively on your behalf you will find those rights get slowly taken away.

People see unions do what they do and complain they aren’t getting the same. The answer is simple-organise and unionise so you all get a better shot at a better deal. They can’t stop people if enough want it.

 

[Grendel]

As with many things its finding a balance isn't it. I don't have a problem with people that want to work hard and do 20 hour days or constantly study to get some reward, the issue is the disparity.

For me anyone who is working full time, in whatever job, should be able to sustain a basic standard of living without relying on benefits, food banks etc. That's how it worked for my parents and grandparents. I have a 'better' job than my Dad or either of my Grandads but I can't afford anything like the standard of living they had and always have the feeling things could go south very quickly. That's not to say that they never had any struggles but bigger picture with one wage in the household they could afford a decent house, car, holiday every year etc.

The problem now is those at the top are getting richer at a ridiculous rate, and often have inheritance or family connections to thank more than hard work and ability, while the number of people struggling is ever increasing. Look at how working people are being pitched against each other, people saying rail employees shouldn't get a raise because teachers haven't and thinks like that, why is the thinking not everyone should get a raise so they can afford a basic standard of living.

You talk if this is a modern new thing - it happened in the 70’s and people got their massive pay rises - then look what happened

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

You talk if this is a modern new thing - it happened in the 70’s and people got their massive pay rises - then look what happened

Take it you approve of the proposals to help those poor souls in the City

 

[Grendel]

Take it you approve of the proposals to help those poor souls in the City

its irrelevant to me

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

its irrelevant to me

So really should whatever a railway signaller is asking for but apparently not

 

[Grendel]

So really should whatever a railway signaller is asking for but apparently not

Well clearly that is relevant isn’t it as mass industrial action has consequences for everyone

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Well clearly that is relevant isn’t it as mass industrial action has consequences for everyone

Not for me I don’t need a train this week

 

[Grendel]

Not for me I don’t need a train this week

It’s nothing to do with trains it’s a domino impact where industries will all demand the wage rises if these get their way - as we saw in the 70’s - unions smelled blood - nurses teachers then private sector unions will go for huge pay demands and the tax payer in the end would pick up the tab

Anyway it was said yesterday the number 1 aim is no redundancies. What planet do these people live on?

 

[Otis]

Who else on the panel?

Grant Shapps

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

It’s nothing to do with trains it’s a domino impact where industries will all demand the wage rises if these get their way - as we saw in the 70’s - unions smelled blood - nurses teachers then private sector unions will go for huge pay demands and the tax payer in the end would pick up the tab

Anyway it was said yesterday the number 1 aim is no redundancies. What planet do these people live on?

As I explained to you and you ignored the teaching unions themselves put forward for an independent pay body, which has been making recommendations to the government for 30 years. Mind you it is staffed by people with no education background for the most part and they tend to ignore the union input, but it exists.

But really if we hadn’t had a decade of not paying people properly we wouldn’t see bigger requests now. If you advocated austerity at the time well this is the consequence

 

[stupot07]

Intereasting graphic on Peston last night of the real terms change average total weekly earnings since the Tories have been in power for public sector in comparison to the private sector. You've only got to look at that to see why there is the prospect of mass strikes this year.

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[Brighton Sky Blue]

I will say though that the NEU and NASUWT talk of strikes should come with a pinch of salt. Neither union is particularly effective at getting high turnout for ballots beyond the schools where local action had taken place. Personally don’t think they’ll hit the 50% of all members needed for it to go through

 

[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

its irrelevant to me

But you said wage rises cause inflation, so it is relevant to you as you'll be paying more for stuff.

 

[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

It’s nothing to do with trains it’s a domino impact where industries will all demand the wage rises if these get their way - as we saw in the 70’s - unions smelled blood - nurses teachers then private sector unions will go for huge pay demands and the tax payer in the end would pick up the tab

Anyway it was said yesterday the number 1 aim is no redundancies. What planet do these people live on?

So if the bankers get a huge pay increase won't all the other industries then demand pay rises as well?

 

[jimmyhillsfanclub]

Intereasting graphic on Peston last night of the real terms change average total weekly earnings since the Tories have been in power for public sector in comparison to the private sector. You've only got to look at that to see why there is the prospect of mass strikes this year.

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It's always a tricky comparison mind....

Public sector generally have far far better t&c's with more paid hols, more generous pensions etc.
Public sector as an entire group have a higher level education than the private sector.

Weekly public sector pay average was higher than private sector up until 2021.

Private sector wages have grown quicker, but from a lower base post-brexit, partly due to the wage suppression suffered during the previous decade.

So...as I say, it's a tricky comparison to make.

 

[Deleted member 5849]

Public sector generally have far far better t&c's with more paid hols, more generous pensions etc.

I'll be generous and say I get the same paid holidays in my public job as I did private (think I'm a day or two down) and a worse pension. No bonuses or anything either. Only thing it's better at is the intangible - my manager is a human being wrt life events and flexibility in that respect (see chiefdave for the opposite!)... but that's luck of the draw really.

 

[stupot07]

I'll be generous and say I get the same paid holidays in my public job as I did private (think I'm a day or two down) and a worse pension. No bonuses or anything either. Only thing it's better at is the intangible - my manager is a human being wrt life events and flexibility in that respect (see chiefdave for the opposite!)... but that's luck of the draw really.

Or things like overtime, etc.

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[Deleted member 5849]

Or things like overtime, etc.

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Conversely that sometimes goes into the intangible. They lock my building and I'm forced home! Perversely sounds great, but not when there's something you have to finish!

 

[chiefdave]

Over a decade of real terms wage deflation. Current inflation rate 9.5%. So obviously it's wages that are the problem

But really if we hadn’t had a decade of not paying people properly we wouldn’t see bigger requests now. If you advocated austerity at the time well this is the consequence

Intereasting graphic on Peston last night of the real terms change average total weekly earnings since the Tories have been in power for public sector in comparison to the private sector. You've only got to look at that to see why there is the prospect of mass strikes this year.

Think this is an important point. Even when we had low inflation wages were lagging. I've just calculated mine using the BoE inflation calculator and even before the current surge in inflation I've effectively had a 15% pay cut since 2010. If inflation is now running at 10% plus and pay rises aren't forthcoming I've in real terms lost a quarter of my wage, which simply isn't sustainable.

At some point I can't keep paying my bills and putting food on the table. I'm already having to cut spending, no season ticket for me this year as I simply can't afford it. The idea that you can lose, in real terms, a quarter of your salary but everything will be fine if you cancel Netflix is crazy.

People simply don't have the room to manoeuvre. Record numbers of people in work on benefits, record food bank usage, increased poverty. I just don't see how anyone can argue that someone working a full time job shouldn't be able to sustain a basic standard of living.

 

[jimmyhillsfanclub]

I'll be generous and say I get the same paid holidays in my public job as I did private (think I'm a day or two down) and a worse pension. No bonuses or anything either. Only thing it's better at is the intangible - my manager is a human being wrt life events and flexibility in that respect (see chiefdave for the opposite!)... but that's luck of the draw really.

Well I did say "generally".

I'm sure we can all find examples right across the spectrum mind.
I've got mates who work in public health, local government, NHS & Universities.....they all have big holiday entitilement, flexi-time, WFH, fairly hefty pension contributions etc.

Equally, a SME company director will clearly have far better t&cs than a hotel cleaner, but they're both in the private sector.

As I say.....its a tricky comparison

 

[Deleted member 5849]

I've got mates who work in public health, local government, NHS & Universities.....they all have big holiday entitilement, flexi-time, WFH, fairly hefty pension contributions etc

Do they have any jobs going? Better salary and conditions than Rob's though please

 

[fernandopartridge]

It’s nothing to do with trains it’s a domino impact where industries will all demand the wage rises if these get their way - as we saw in the 70’s - unions smelled blood - nurses teachers then private sector unions will go for huge pay demands and the tax payer in the end would pick up the tab

Anyway it was said yesterday the number 1 aim is no redundancies. What planet do these people live on?

Why won't Network Rail give a commitment to no compulsory redudancies? it is not a difficult ask

 

[jimmyhillsfanclub]

Merseyrail staff just voted to accept 7.1% pay rise....... seems like a good reference point.

 

[jimmyhillsfanclub]

Why won't Network Rail give a commitment to no compulsory redudancies? it is not a difficult ask

Exactly..... such a massive organisation and allegedly only looking at <2K redundancies nationwide.....surely that could be achieved with voluntary & natural wastage.

 

[clint van damme]

Merseyrail staff just voted to accept 7.1% pay rise....... seems like a good reference point.

No government involvement in the negotiations.

 

[skybluetony176]

Grant Shapps

Bottled it I think. Probably send a junior minister with a poorly prepared brief to face him instead. Shapps is busy selling online ponzi schemes online under various aliases.

(Edit) just checked, it’s a junior minister, not even from transport, under Secretary for safeguarding. Had to look that up, her remit does cover modern slavery though so…

 

[Grendel]

So if the bankers get a huge pay increase won't all the other industries then demand pay rises as well?

No why should they?

 

[shmmeee]

Well I did say "generally".

I'm sure we can all find examples right across the spectrum mind.
I've got mates who work in public health, local government, NHS & Universities.....they all have big holiday entitilement, flexi-time, WFH, fairly hefty pension contributions etc.

Equally, a SME company director will clearly have far better t&cs than a hotel cleaner, but they're both in the private sector.

As I say.....its a tricky comparison

Its not, you compare like for like in terms of skill level at the least. My salary has doubled in the private sector without my skills doubling, I have unlimited holiday, expenses paid trips, work from anywhere. If I want a pay rise I answer one of the many LinkedIn messages I get. I can earn over £100k as a technical educator privately, to earn £100k in state education I’d need to be a super head.

 

[skybluetony176]

Think this is an important point. Even when we had low inflation wages were lagging. I've just calculated mine using the BoE inflation calculator and even before the current surge in inflation I've effectively had a 15% pay cut since 2010. If inflation is now running at 10% plus and pay rises aren't forthcoming I've in real terms lost a quarter of my wage, which simply isn't sustainable.

At some point I can't keep paying my bills and putting food on the table. I'm already having to cut spending, no season ticket for me this year as I simply can't afford it. The idea that you can lose, in real terms, a quarter of your salary but everything will be fine if you cancel Netflix is crazy.

People simply don't have the room to manoeuvre. Record numbers of people in work on benefits, record food bank usage, increased poverty. I just don't see how anyone can argue that someone working a full time job shouldn't be able to sustain a basic standard of living.

I think I heard the other day that the UK average is a 19% cut in wages in real terms since 2010.

 

[Grendel]

But it is pretty selfish ultimately, because it's only your offspring you're bothered about. If it gives your kids more but other kids end up suffering because of it, so be it. You got what YOU wanted.

I'm fine with people wanting to protect their kids and family - it's one of the most basic traits ingrained in us and many other species. A roof over their heads, food in their belly and being happy.

But at the same time I acknowledge that every single other person wants that too. I know there will be people who find this hard to fathom, but when I think of other people even though I don't know them I put myself into the position of if I did - if they were my nan, brother, mum - and what would I want for them. Because the alternative is looking at them and thinking "why should I give a fuck about them?", which is the mindset you're ultimately supporting. So while you're putting your own kids first, it would mean that every single other person doesn't give a shit about them. If your kids suffer so their family can have more then that's the way it's got to be. You're advocating a system whereby everyone else will be looking to take from your kids at any opportunity and not care about them. That seems like a very odd thing to desire for your children.

So instead why shouldn't I look at ways to achieve what every single one of us wants together, rather than fighting each other and everyone ending up being unhappy and huge numbers failing in such a basic task? You say how difficult it is for your kids to buy a home, and you're right. But is the problem there caused by people like yourself and your kids wanting to buy a home or the greedy bastards who own loads of them, use them to line their own pockets and still want more. But rather than try and make that situation better you're just playing their game armed like the Black Knight from Monty Python.

What a load of sanctimonious tripe

 

[jimmyhillsfanclub]

Its not, you compare like for like in terms of skill level at the least. My salary has doubled in the private sector without my skills doubling, I have unlimited holiday, expenses paid trips, work from anywhere. If I want a pay rise I answer one of the many LinkedIn messages I get. I can earn over £100k as a technical educator privately, to earn £100k in state education I’d need to be a super head.

So you happen to be a well paid in-demand professional. Well done. Although i'm fairly sure job hopping is not the same as asking for a pay rise......

As I stated above, I'm sure we can all find examples of good & bad in both sectors, but Im just saying that basic salary comparisons are very blunt tool that rarely take in to consideration the added value of pensions, holidays etc.

Sticking with Education then, A basic grade state teacher, for example, may not get paid a great amount, but did their 3 months holidays + 24% employer pension contribution get added into the stats?......probably not.

I believe state teachers are underpaid & deserve more btw.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

So you happen to be a well paid in-demand professional. Well done. Although i'm fairly sure job hopping is not the same as asking for a pay rise......

As I stated above, I'm sure we can all find examples of good & bad in both sectors, but Im just saying that basic salary comparisons are very blunt tool that rarely take in to consideration the added value of pensions, holidays etc.

Sticking with Education then, A basic grade state teacher, for example, may not get paid a great amount, but did their 3 months holidays + 24% employer pension contribution get added into the stats?......probably not.

I believe state teachers are underpaid & deserve more btw.

For reference the Scottish state sector is paid 8% more than the English one is. Largely because there is really only one teaching union up there compared to the even split here

 

[skybluetony176]

Mick Lynch has dealt with Piers Morgan’s critique of his profile picture and changed it. To one of Piers Morgan partying with Ghislaine Maxwell.