Do you want to discuss boring politics? (121 Viewers)

[shmmeee]

Thats why I mentioned they needed to be done in the right way, with a greater focus on getting bright kids from poor backgrounds out of underperforming schools in deprived areas…and at least an element of control over the chief execs !

Im really on the fence about grammars. I think a lot of good kids get ruined by state education in poor areas, but equally I’m not sure about pushing the already poorer areas even further behind (which is unquestionably what selective schools do to those around them).

Sticking with my policy of comprehensive to 13 and selective/specialist 14-19.

 

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[CCFCSteve]

All we would be doing there is creating a 3 tier education system. We need to move on from deciding children's futures based on an arbitrary test taken at the age of 11.

We don’t live in an ideal world though. Based on anecdotal evidence and not looking at league tables I’m guessing most of the better state schools are in catchment areas where poorer parents can’t afford to live ?

Hence me saying earlier if they go through with the policy the cash needs to be funnelled into these deprived areas first and foremost

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

I don’t thunk you’ll find many Labour supporters who are against increased education funding.

If you’re serious about offering what private students have to all student (or anything close to it) you’re looking at doubling the state education budget though. Personally I’m all for that, I don’t think you get many better returns on investment than education, but good luck selling that to a public still stuck on a kitchen table view of national economics.

On this specific policy, I believe the point is to use the money for covid catchup (which the government have gone very quiet on and as a parent I see no evidence of).

That's what's needed. Certainly if we wish to get class sizes down from the somewhat absurd level they're now at.

 

[shmmeee]

We don’t live in an ideal world though. Based on anecdotal evidence and not looking at league tables I’m guessing most of the better state schools are in catchment areas where poorer parents can’t afford to live ?

Hence me saying earlier if they go through with the policy the cash needs to be funnelled into these deprived areas first and foremost

“better state schools” means more well off parents and not much else. It’s not something funding will fix really, it’s more about housing policy. Any school that gets a rep will be swarmed by the middle classes until the poorer families are pushed out.

This is the elephant in the room of education policy. Even the great success story of London was basically down to a bunch of highly motivated immigrants moving in and boosting test scores. Schools are always a function of their local community.

 

[shmmeee]

That's what's needed. Certainly if we wish to get class sizes down from the somewhat absurd level they're now at.

Completely agree. A focus on class sizes of 15-20 max would be the best education policy you could propose but my god the headline figures would be eye watering.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

We don’t live in an ideal world though. Based on anecdotal evidence and not looking at league tables I’m guessing most of the better state schools are in catchment areas where poorer parents can’t afford to live ?

Hence me saying earlier if they go through with the policy the cash needs to be funnelled into these deprived areas first and foremost

Well Coventry's best state schools for example I'd say are President Kennedy and Sidney Stringer-neither of which are in affluent parts of the city. Finham used to be but has I think gone downhill since academisation, at least from what I hear.

The point is we as a country don't take education anywhere near seriously enough which is why usually a feckless numpty is made the SoS and the funding is usually inadequate

 

[CCFCSteve]

Any school that gets a rep will be swarmed by the middle classes until the poorer families are pushed out.

Exactly

 

[skybluetony176]

We need a larger civil service now after Brexit. Cutting it would be a disaster.

It’s not big enough, hence we keep delaying checks at the border, end of next year I think is the latest date for implementing brexit. As the minister for brexit opportunities confirmed, implementing brexit with out enough civil servants in place is an exercise in self harm.

 

[Nick]

Maybe create schools for parents who give a shit and then just creches for those who don't and just use them for that reason?

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Completely agree. A focus on class sizes of 15-20 max would be the best education policy you could propose but my god the headline figures would be eye watering.

Even in private schools the class size can be as high as 25. Which I think would be a fair enough place to start and would kill a lot of birds with one stone. Better teacher workload, better support for students in lessons, less disruption for classes etc.

 

[shmmeee]

Even in private schools the class size can be as high as 25. Which I think would be a fair enough place to start and would kill a lot of birds with one stone. Better teacher workload, better support for students in lessons, less disruption for classes etc.

Id argue it’s a sliding scale depending on socioeconomic issues. Just an extension of what a lot of school do now with setting where they have 30 in top set and 10 in bottom set.

 

[skybluetony176]

Heard Houchen earlier saying he’d not heard one candidate mention levelling up.

It’s like they’re all actively avoiding using the phrase. Even Truss who seems to be trying to sell herself as the continuity Boris option.

 

[shmmeee]

You’ve got to remember the pitch will be to first Tory MPs who care about tax cuts the most then to the members who care about social conservatism the most, I wouldn’t expect much on climate, levelling up, etc.

 

[Nick]

I had the issue with my daughter's first school, the teachers openly said that because she is bright and polite and wants to learn they wish they could give her more time to help her push on. They literally didn't have the time or resources to help her thrive as they were too busy dealing with kids in nappies and others with no respect for anything.

Then she had to watch kids get rewarded because they didn't piss themself or punch a teacher for a week. Utterly demoralising.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Id argue it’s a sliding scale depending on socioeconomic issues. Just an extension of what a lot of school do now with setting where they have 30 in top set and 10 in bottom set.

In one grammar school I worked in every class had at least 30. Perhaps something to consider for the grammar school advocates.

 

[shmmeee]

I had the issue with my daughter's first school, the teachers openly said that because she is bright and polite and wants to learn they wish they could give her more time to help her push on. They literally didn't have the time or resources to help her thrive as they were too busy dealing with kids in nappies and others with no respect for anything.

Notbing used to piss me off more as a teacher than when I had to break from helping a student move up to an A or A* (as it was then) to tell some twat to stop being a twat.

 

[shmmeee]

The other option of course is you make it easier to exclude the twats and have a proper system to managing them and their often multiple issues rather than bouncing them around the worst schools in the council for 10 years.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

I had the issue with my daughter's first school, the teachers openly said that because she is bright and polite and wants to learn they wish they could give her more time to help her push on. They literally didn't have the time or resources to help her thrive as they were too busy dealing with kids in nappies and others with no respect for anything.

Then she had to watch kids get rewarded because they didn't piss themself or punch a teacher for a week. Utterly demoralising.

As a teacher you feel like you're failing kids like that. In one Coventry comp I had more than one class of 35, it's just impossible in a situation to give students what they need and deserve. So those who can find the money go private

 

[Nick]

Notbing used to piss me off more as a teacher than when I had to break from helping a student move up to an A or A* (as it was then) to tell some twat to stop being a twat.

Yep, the teachers would openly say they would love to have a class full of kids like her but literally can't because they are dealing with the muppets.

What options did I have then? Private or move house to get her into the best school I could.

 

[Nick]

So those who can find the money go private

People have this thing about private where everybody is like a Boris Johnson with millions of pounds.

From my experience, the vast majority aren't. They are just parents scraping by who want the best for their kids after the normal schools failed them.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Notbing used to piss me off more as a teacher than when I had to break from helping a student move up to an A or A* (as it was then) to tell some twat to stop being a twat.

I had one lesson with a guy who insisted on sitting there with both his fingers up his nose-when I kept asking him to stop he gave the stunning comeback of 'it's not your nose though'. Dude was 14

 

[skybluetony176]

I don’t thunk you’ll find many Labour supporters who are against increased education funding.

If you’re serious about offering what private students have to all student (or anything close to it) you’re looking at doubling the state education budget though. Personally I’m all for that, I don’t think you get many better returns on investment than education, but good luck selling that to a public still stuck on a kitchen table view of national economics.

On this specific policy, I believe the point is to use the money for covid catchup (which the government have gone very quiet on and as a parent I see no evidence of).

There is off course a western country that banned private education almost 50 years ago and very quickly ended up having the best education standards in the world. Not least because the people who could afford to educate their children privately all of a sudden had an interest in seeing state schools achieve. Funny that.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

People have this thing about private where everybody is like a Boris Johnson with millions of pounds.

From my experience, the vast majority aren't. They are just parents scraping by who want the best for their kids after the normal schools failed them.

As I said, they aren't all Eton and Harrow. Most have their money tied up in the facilities and buildings and don't rake in the kinds of profits people think.

 

[shmmeee]

People have this thing about private where everybody is like a Boris Johnson with millions of pounds.

From my experience, the vast majority aren't. They are just parents scraping by who want the best for their kids after the normal schools failed them.

There’s two issues with private education. One is the elite schools where kids are very much inoculated from the real world and the school serves as a conveyor belt into powerful jobs. A certain rather sociopathic ideology is infused along the way.

The other is good quality kids airlifted out of the state system making the state system worse and a loss chances in life being determined by their parents not anything they did.

The first is despicable, the second is understandable and should be fixed for everyone.

 

[Nick]

There’s two issues with private education. One is the elite schools where kids are very much inoculated from the real world and the school serves as a conveyor belt into powerful jobs. A certain rather sociopathic ideology is infused along the way.

The other is good quality kids airlifted out of the state system making the state system worse and a loss chances in life being determined by their parents not anything they did.

The first is despicable, the second is understandable and should be fixed for everyone.

Totally agree.

Although if my kid is really bright, why should I let her stagnate because there's other kids who have absolutely no interest in learning? Ideally, kick the fuckers out and only have kids there who want to learn (regardless of ability.

Then there's the parents, most of the parents of the kids in her class who were little bellends obviously saw them as angels who did no wrong ever so would be arguing with the teachers.

A lot of the parents of kids in Private Schools I know are really grafting and going without to send them there. This isn't the bellend posh sorts, it is normal people.

 

[Deleted member 5849]

Im really on the fence about grammars. I think a lot of good kids get ruined by state education in poor areas, but equally I’m not sure about pushing the already poorer areas even further behind (which is unquestionably what selective schools do to those around them).

Sticking with my policy of comprehensive to 13 and selective/specialist 14-19.

I'm probably not the best person to talk, as I ended up in a grammar school, but my mates who went to the comps were fine... as long as it wasn't Newbold pre-arson attack anyway It ultimately (as ever!) comes down to funding, and if that's in place, *then* we can have a conversation about the best system for state education.

(I also see more and more people coaching for 11 plus, which ends up favouring the richer families too, of course. Am sure there wasn't that kind of thing in my day. Wasn't for me, anyway!)

 

[Deleted member 5849]

They are just parents scraping by who want the best for their kids after the normal schools failed them.

At the same time, there are also schools (Princethorpe College!) where the intake was everybody from wealthier familes who failed their 11 plus! It wasn't the state system failing them, it was their kids not being as bright. The issue wasn't, therefore, the parents trying to bump their children up (much as buying your council house, why wouldn't you?) but the unfairness that some kids who were brighter than them didn't have the same chances due to background.

And that's what's wrong. If it's about levelling up, it's about levelling up those education chances.

 

[Nick]

(I also see more and more people coaching for 11 plus, which ends up favouring the richer families too, of course. Am sure there wasn't that kind of thing in my day. Wasn't for me, anyway!)

I get that there are a lot of poorer families, however there's also priorities.

I know people who will have their 2 foreign holidays a year, brand new cars etc but if you were to say there's some coaching for an 11 plus they had to pay for they would be disgusted.

There are some people (and a lot of asian communities) where Education is everything. They would literally go without food to get their kids the best education they possibly can. However this often piles pressure on the kids.

 

[Deleted member 5849]

I get that there are a lot of poorer families

There are poorer families. How about the ones that used to ask for peoples' apple cores, as it was the only fruit they'd get? It's unfair to lump them in with the examples of others.

And as for that, we could all have less holidays, but pay more tax towards a state education system after all. In fact, a higher tax rate might force people to have less holidays - guides people towards the 'right' priorities.

 

[fernandopartridge]

Levelling up doesn’t seem to be on anyones agenda either. Zahawi now trying to backtrack saying he was talking about 20% of personnel not budget. Not sure how that’s going to go down in places like Middlesbrough where the biggest employer is the civil service.

All I’m hearing is a return to austerity, because that worked last time.

To be fair austerity didn't go away, there was just exceptional spending to support the covid response (and a lot of that was just shovelling cash to Tory mates)

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[fernandopartridge]

Will probably put a good number of private schools out of business mind you and put more children into a state sector that needs more than a lick of paint.

No it won't

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[shmmeee]

Totally agree.

Although if my kid is really bright, why should I let her stagnate because there's other kids who have absolutely no interest in learning? Ideally, kick the fuckers out and only have kids there who want to learn (regardless of ability.

Then there's the parents, most of the parents of the kids in her class who were little bellends obviously saw them as angels who did no wrong ever so would be arguing with the teachers.

A lot of the parents of kids in Private Schools I know are really grafting and going without to send them there. This isn't the bellend posh sorts, it is normal people.

Yeah, though my boss who sent his kid private was endlessly moaning about them.

My issue is that even my mate who is on benefits’ kid should have that opportunity. Ultimately I wouldn’t ban them but I would aim to make them redundant by sorting out education. Especially on issues like you mention that everyone who comes into contact with the system raises.

I'm probably not the best person to talk, as I ended up in a grammar school, but my mates who went to the comps were fine... as long as it wasn't Newbold pre-arson attack anyway It ultimately (as ever!) comes down to funding, and if that's in place, *then* we can have a conversation about the best system for state education.

(I also see more and more people coaching for 11 plus, which ends up favouring the richer families too, of course. Am sure there wasn't that kind of thing in my day. Wasn't for me, anyway!)

Well that’s it. I was looking for a Maths tutor today for my eldest, so there’s always going to be an element of it. But I wouldn’t be looking if I had faith in my local school.

 

[fernandopartridge]

People have this thing about private where everybody is like a Boris Johnson with millions of pounds.

From my experience, the vast majority aren't. They are just parents scraping by who want the best for their kids after the normal schools failed them.

People with the money to send their kids to private school are exceptionally well off even if they're not to the level of somebody like Johnson

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[Nick]

There are poorer families. How about the ones that used to ask for peoples' apple cores, as it was the only fruit they'd get? It's unfair to lump them in with the examples of others.

And as for that, we could all have less holidays, but pay more tax towards a state education system after all. In fact, a higher tax rate might force people to have less holidays - guides people towards the 'right' priorities.

Oh no, that's what I meant. There are really really poor families, these are those who should get bursaries for bright kids.

I'd happily pay more for a state education system for any kid who wants to learn (regardless of background). Fuck the rest off though.

In an ideal world, state schools would have small classes and provide the same levels of education.

 

[Deleted member 5849]

No it won't

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If a private school is in a private market, and ends up forced out of business because of this plan, it suggests it wasn't a very good school in the first place, and is probably saving a bunch of people from being ripped off...