Do you want to discuss boring politics? (55 Viewers)

[Otis]

It’d be interesting to know whether once someone’s genitals have been changed, whether or not they’d then be allowed to enter a specific area?

Good point. And I don't know the answer.

 

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[Grendel]

What is that person concerned about happening? Being assaulted? Because you’ve both said that’s not what it’s about.

I’m concerned about the woman’s right or in this case a 14 year old girls right to say she felt uncomfortable in that scenario

I’m sure you said men should cross the road if they walk near a single woman in a dark street

 

[shmmeee]

Come to a game with us some time and you can have that conversation yourself. Germaine Greer who is a feminist of a previous era has written pretty strongly on this topic to the point of expressing openly transphobic views.

You have also said it’s not about men just trying to abuse access to women in unisex areas by claiming to be female-so what is it about? Genuinely, as I don’t understand.

OK.

The main thing for second wave feminists is replacing sex with gender.

They’ve spent their entire polticial lives fighting gender. The idea that they have to behave a certain way to be a woman, that being hairier, louder, stronger, taller makes them “less womanly”.

They’ve also been fighting for safe spaces for domestic violence and rape victims and better justice in the justice system due to the hugely different offending profiles between men and women.

Then along comes a movement that says “no, what makes you a woman is pretty dresses and a lot of tits” and “sex is a spectrum do tall women and short men are “less womanly/manly”. That reifies gender as not only real but the most important metric to judge humans by in society.

And it’s full of bollocks. While feminists have spent decades learning, researching, winning policy debates, grounding their arguments in fact and philosophical debate. This is just a load of tumblr teens writ large who waffle on about clownfish.

But it’s rich white middle class men and media and corporate backed and it’s clever enough to use gender which a lot of law uses as a euphemism for sex to try and push this stuff without debate into law. Meanwhile the number of teenage girls chopping their tits off because they don’t conform to gender skyrockets. All the while while we have no longitudinal evidence for medical or psychological interventions.

 

[PVA]

No, it's just another example of how superficial you are

Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk

What are you talking about?

He came across far better than any of the others in the debate. That does not mean I agree with his politics or agree with anything he said.

You do realise the two things are separate right?

And clearly I'm not alone in thinking he came across the best:

 

[shmmeee]

It’d be interesting to know whether once someone’s genitals have been changed, whether or not they’d then be allowed to enter a specific area?

The unwritten agreement has always been cutting your dick off offers you some level of trust in how serious you are.

OK.

The main thing for second wave feminists is replacing sex with gender.

They’ve spent their entire polticial lives fighting gender. The idea that they have to behave a certain way to be a woman, that being hairier, louder, stronger, taller makes them “less womanly”.

They’ve also been fighting for safe spaces for domestic violence and rape victims and better justice in the justice system due to the hugely different offending profiles between men and women.

Then along comes a movement that says “no, what makes you a woman is pretty dresses and a lot of tits” and “sex is a spectrum do tall women and short men are “less womanly/manly”. That reifies gender as not only real but the most important metric to judge humans by in society.

And it’s full of bollocks. While feminists have spent decades learning, researching, winning policy debates, grounding their arguments in fact and philosophical debate. This is just a load of tumblr teens writ large who waffle on about clownfish.

But it’s rich white middle class men and media and corporate backed and it’s clever enough to use gender which a lot of law uses as a euphemism for sex to try and push this stuff without debate into law. Meanwhile the number of teenage girls chopping their tits off because they don’t conform to gender skyrockets. All the while while we have no longitudinal evidence for medical or psychological interventions.

The best tl:dr I’ve read of this is:

Conservatives: women must do the washing up
Feminists: Anyone can do the washing up
Trans activists: Whoever does the washing up is a woman

 

[Grendel]

In the context of women being assaulted or worse, yes. But you said this isn’t about assault-so what is it?

Though for the record yeah whenever my wife is walking home on her own she changes her route and calls me or her family in case something happens.

So she’d call you when fully clothed but would have no issue whatsoever if a guy walks into a communal shower stark bollock naked and think - “ah your a trans that’s cool”

 

[shmmeee]

On topic I thought Tugendhat was by far the most polished of the lot. Badenoch was a lot lot worse than I expected. The big three pretty meh.

 

[Sick Boy]

Good point. And I don't know the answer.

It’d be pretty extreme in that case to treat them as their original gender.
I think in 50 years attitudes towards it will be very different to now.

 

[Grendel]

The pretty clear implication there being that women should implicitly have something to fear from trans women.

I’ve not seen evidence that trans women are routinely responsible for women’s spaces becoming more dangerous, but the way this debate is being presented (by the Tory party, of all people!) is doing a wonderful job of demonising them regardless.

Several labour MPs have expressed the same concern

 

[SBT]

This is just a load of tumblr teens writ large who waffle on about clownfish.

Glad to see you approaching this topic with the sensitivity and maturity it demands.

 

[Grendel]

It’d be interesting to know whether once someone’s genitals have been changed, whether or not they’d then be allowed to enter a specific area?

Do you agree with this viewpoint?

We should all be grateful to Maya Forstater

Maya Forstater has finally won her case against her former employer, the Center for Global Development. Yesterday, her (second) Employment Tribunal determined that her complaints were well-founded, agreeing that she had faced direct discrimination when her contract was not renewed, and...

unherd.com

 

[Sick Boy]

Do you agree with this viewpoint?

We should all be grateful to Maya Forstater

Maya Forstater has finally won her case against her former employer, the Center for Global Development. Yesterday, her (second) Employment Tribunal determined that her complaints were well-founded, agreeing that she had faced direct discrimination when her contract was not renewed, and...

unherd.com

What has a part time crossdresser got to do with someone who’s undergone surgery?

 

[PVA]

Tory culture war is clearly working anyway...

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

I’m concerned about the woman’s right or in this case a 14 year old girls right to say she felt uncomfortable in that scenario

I’m sure you said men should cross the road if they walk near a single woman in a dark street

And again, why would they feel uncomfortable if it’s not about something untoward or worse happening? You keep saying it’s not about assault but it seems like it might be.

And yes I probably said something to that effect and it’s what at least some boys are being told at school. Again, in the context of sexual or violent assault.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

So she’d call you when fully clothed but would have no issue whatsoever if a guy walks into a communal shower stark bollock naked and think - “ah your a trans that’s cool”

If this isn’t about assault then what is it about?

 

[Grendel]

What has a part time crossdresser got to do with someone who’s undergone surgery?

We aren’t talking about surgery?

 

[Sick Boy]

If this isn’t about assault then what is it about?

Yeah it kind of feels like all trans people are sexual predators to me. A few decades ago it would have been the same kind of conservation about gay men.

 

[Sick Boy]

We aren’t talking about surgery?

You just quoted a post of mine talking about surgery.
A part time crossdresser is very different to what I’m talking about.

 

[clint van damme]

Tory culture war is clearly working anyway...

I think most of us are quite capable of taking part in this debate without it distracting from out thoughts on the economy, Ukraine, cost of living crisis etc.

 

[Grendel]

If this isn’t about assault then what is it about?

its about a woman’s right to not share a communal space with a man so if a 14 year old girl was exposed to by a man identified as a woman is it a problem as it’s a woman?

 

[SBT]

its about a woman’s right to not share a communal space with a man so if a 14 year old girl was exposed to by a man identified as a woman is it a problem as it’s a woman?

Do you not find it at all strange how quickly any discussion of trans people immediately pivots to talk of serial killers and sexual predators lurking in children’s showers?

 

[Grendel]

You just quoted a post of mine talking about surgery.
A part time crossdresser is very different to what I’m talking about.

But it isn’t and also can you please actually tell me what’s incorrect about the Spectator article

You are basically saying women have no rights regarding sharing a space with a man and should never object to it

 

[clint van damme]

Do you not find it at all strange how quickly any discussion of trans people immediately pivots to talk of serial killers and sexual predators lurking in children’s showers?

Didn't you just postsomething about treating this issue with the sensitivity it deserves?

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

OK.

The main thing for second wave feminists is replacing sex with gender.

They’ve spent their entire polticial lives fighting gender. The idea that they have to behave a certain way to be a woman, that being hairier, louder, stronger, taller makes them “less womanly”.

They’ve also been fighting for safe spaces for domestic violence and rape victims and better justice in the justice system due to the hugely different offending profiles between men and women.

Then along comes a movement that says “no, what makes you a woman is pretty dresses and a lot of tits” and “sex is a spectrum do tall women and short men are “less womanly/manly”. That reifies gender as not only real but the most important metric to judge humans by in society.

And it’s full of bollocks. While feminists have spent decades learning, researching, winning policy debates, grounding their arguments in fact and philosophical debate. This is just a load of tumblr teens writ large who waffle on about clownfish.

But it’s rich white middle class men and media and corporate backed and it’s clever enough to use gender which a lot of law uses as a euphemism for sex to try and push this stuff without debate into law. Meanwhile the number of teenage girls chopping their tits off because they don’t conform to gender skyrockets. All the while while we have no longitudinal evidence for medical or psychological interventions.

A good chunk of this is out of the Greer handbook. ‘A load of tumblr teens who waffle on about clownfish’. Is it?

 

[SkyBlueSoul]

Her leadership campaign is as dead as Thatcher herself it seems

Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk

Another poll backing that up

 

[Grendel]

Do you not find it at all strange how quickly any discussion of trans people immediately pivots to talk of serial killers and sexual predators lurking in children’s showers?

Er I quoted an assault on a prison? And where did I say the naked person in the shower was a sexual predator? You’ve assumed that from what I said but oddly no one answers the question

If a naked boy in a shower alone with a naked girl Should the girl have any rights if she doesn’t like that if the man is identifying as a woman

That’s all I’m asking? Why not just answer that point

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

its about a woman’s right to not share a communal space with a man so if a 14 year old girl was exposed to by a man identified as a woman is it a problem as it’s a woman?

You’re avoiding this a lot but I think for the avoidance of doubt are you talking about concerns over assault or aren’t you? If no then what about?

 

[shmmeee]

You’re avoiding this a lot but I think for the avoidance of doubt are you talking about concerns over assault or aren’t you? If no then what about?

Privacy, dignity, the right to assemble without an chaperone.

 

[SBT]

Didn't you just postsomething about treating this issue with the sensitivity it deserves?

Yes, which is why I find it sad that the ‘trans issue’ in this country appears to only exist in people’s minds as something to do with prison attacks and people exposing themselves in showers. Is that what we should be thinking of when we think about the trans community?

 

[Sick Boy]

Isn’t all of this something which has originated from an American culture war?

 

[shmmeee]

Yes, which is why I find it sad that the ‘trans issue’ in this country appears to only exist in people’s minds as something to do with prison attacks and people exposing themselves in showers. Is that what we should be thinking of when we think about the trans community?

Their trans status is irrelevant, these women have no issue with “trans men” attending womens sports (subject to doping law), prisons, spaces. It’s men they have a problem with. They see it as yet another “Not all men are like that”/“I’m one of the nice guys”.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Privacy, dignity, the right to assemble without an chaperone.

Why is being exposed to a stranger’s vagina more OK than someone’s surgically altered genitalia? Or are we arguing this from a heteronormative standpoint where women have no sexual interest in other women?

 

[clint van damme]

Yes, which is why I find it sad that the ‘trans issue’ in this country appears to only exist in people’s minds as something to do with prison attacks and people exposing themselves in showers. Is that what we should be thinking of when we think about the trans community?

I'm thinking more about the female community, (the ones without a cock and bollocks).

That last remark is flippant, I feel for anyone who feels trapped in the wrong gender body but I still feel the feelings of women in general should be paramount.

If you don't mind me asking, have you got daughters?

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Isn’t all of this something which has originated from an American culture war?

See the ‘what is a woman’ film from Ben Shapiro’s network

 

[Grendel]

You’re avoiding this a lot but I think for the avoidance of doubt are you talking about concerns over assault or aren’t you? If no then what about?

No I’m talking about a woman’s rights not to share an open space with a naked man - I think that’s here basic right - does she have that right whatever her “reason”