Wasps downward spiral... (24 Viewers)

[Liquid Gold]

£35m bond

£14m to 'pay off' (move) the council loan
£6m to pay for the first load of interest
£12m to actually pay off Richardson
£3m for flags, fire machines, telegraph bribes and fireworks

 

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[duffer]

From bondholders forum

Same as 1bolivar, I have been following the board for months but did not have much to contribute. I hold quite a substantial amount (though not as much as Ozzie) so I registered with the trustees and re-joined FB to be able to stay in touch with the group. Like everyone else, I knew the risk of the bond when I bought it at launch but it was nothing as risky as mini bonds. It was a regulated and listed bond with a stadium as a collateral. Unlike many savvy investors on this board I invested all my holding at par which means that I am probably set out to lose the most. Greed did not come into play here. This was redundancy money I invested for my children, being a single mum of 3.

I've got some sympathy here, but even at the time a relatively small amount of research would have made it evident that there was always a level of risk in these bonds. Putting everything in this pot wasn't really a great choice.

That said, I genuinely hope she gets some of it back.

The stadium and the p-shares have some value and if the bond holders act quickly enough I think they can recover at least something. The longer it goes on though, the more I can see the owners protecting themselves at the expense of the bondholders.

 

[Deleted member 5849]

I've got some sympathy here, but even at the time a relatively small amount of research would have made it evident that there was always a level of risk in these bonds. Putting everything in this pot wasn't really a great choice.

That said, I genuinely hope she gets some of it back.

The stadium and the p-shares have some value and if the bond holders act quickly enough I think they can recover at least something. The longer it goes on though, the more I can see the owners protecting themselves at the expense of the bondholders.

She will at least have had some interest payments way over what she'd have had in a bank account, so she has had some back already of course.

 

[Grendel]

She will at least have had some interest payments way over what she'd have had in a bank account, so she has had some back already of course.

Pretty small beer if no capital is forthcoming

 

[oldfiver]

I've got some sympathy here, but even at the time a relatively small amount of research would have made it evident that there was always a level of risk in these bonds. Putting everything in this pot wasn't really a great choice.

That said, I genuinely hope she gets some of it back.

The stadium and the p-shares have some value and if the bond holders act quickly enough I think they can recover at least something. The longer it goes on though, the more I can see the owners protecting themselves at the expense of the bondholders.

Interesting you mention Pshares
There is no charge on the shares but on the proceeds of sale

WASPs received £14m from a deal relating to the shareholding but the monies did not go to the Bondholders.

 

[duffer]

Interesting you mention Pshares
There is no charge on the shares but on the proceeds of sale

WASPs received £14m from a deal relating to the shareholding but the monies did not go to the Bondholders.fit

Ah, that's interesting, I missed that. So in essence the bondholders couldn't force the sale of the p-shares, but could in theory benefit if Wasps chose or were obliged to sell them?

My gut feel is that Wasps are getting busy trying to protect themselves from the bondholders calling it all in. The bondholders aren't helped, imho, by a Trustee who seems unable or unwilling to act.

It's a proper mess - it makes our shambles of an Administration look almost straightforward!

 

[duffer]

She will at least have had some interest payments way over what she'd have had in a bank account, so she has had some back already of course.

It's not such a good deal if you've lost all of your principal though, and it's the only pot you've used for your investments. I have sympathy, but I'm not sure everyone who piled into the bonds really understood the risk.

 

[CCFC54321]

This is what annoys me about the revisionists on their forum. They bleat about the council bailing us out on the building of the Ricoh, when they haven't put a penny towards their purchase of the ground. The bond holders paid for it!

And while I'm on, where's the CVC money gone, eh? As much as they say lovely old rugby man Richardson loves Wasps, I bet the only person who doesn't lose out on all this is himself...

They don’t really own it do they? It’ll eventually be taken off them in the end when the bond holders eventually group together and take the ground back off them.

 

[Grendel]

They don’t really own it do they? It’ll eventually be taken off them in the end when the bond holders eventually group together and take the ground back off them.

Highly unlikely

 

[oldfiver]

They don’t really own it do they? It’ll eventually be taken off them in the end when the bond holders eventually group together and take the ground back off them.

But they don't automatically get the ground - that is in the prospectus

They also need >25% of bondholders to block any WF proposal. They are concerned that WF come back and offer a highly discounted figure or a very long term loan position which any larger bondholder might accept

 

[MalcSB]

It's not such a good deal if you've lost all of your principal though, and it's the only pot you've used for your investments. I have sympathy, but I'm not sure everyone who piled into the bonds really understood the risk.

The reason I posted that from the bondholders forum was because Liquid Gold had said “The second funniest thing behind Wasps going bust would be all the people that bankrolled their franchising losing all their money.” I felt that was a pretty cruel and unkind thing to say.

The bondholders, other than Wasps fans, had no interest in supporting Wasps franchising. The bonds were released after the event. Some holders seem to be professional investors, others ordinary people who saw an opportunity to make a reasonable, above inflation, return on their nest eggs. They all believed it was an investment, not without some risk, but secured against the stadium. Whether they understood that the 250 year lease was not necessarily that secure given the arrangement that it would return to CCC if Wasps went bust is another matter. The bondholders are certainly getting jittery now as they become(quote) “aware of the issues, injustices, sharp practices which WF are foisting on what should have been perfectly healthy, normal 'deal'”.

Wasps fans seem unable to acknowledge just how close they are sailing to the wind, their reputation in the financial markets must be shattered. If their credit rating is as poor as suggested elsewhere (in relation to the pitch), it’s little wonder they have been unable to refinance elsewhere.

Wasps had £35m from bondholders, £14m from the CVC deal and probably £10m in Covid support and are still in the financial shit. They could still be relegated if insolvency was unavoidable in May. If they fail to come up with something to satisfy the bondholders, that would be a reasonable conclusion to come to.

 

[oldfiver]

The reason I posted that from the bondholders forum was because Liquid Gold had said “The second funniest thing behind Wasps going bust would be all the people that bankrolled their franchising losing all their money.” I felt that was a pretty cruel and unkind thing to say.

The bondholders, other than Wasps fans, had no interest in supporting Wasps franchising. The bonds were released after the event. Some holders seem to be professional investors, others ordinary people who saw an opportunity to make a reasonable, above inflation, return on their nest eggs. They all believed it was an investment, not without some risk, but secured against the stadium. Whether they understood that the 250 year lease was not necessarily that secure given the arrangement that it would return to CCC if Wasps went bust is another matter. The bondholders are certainly getting jittery now as they become(quote) “aware of the issues, injustices, sharp practices which WF are foisting on what should have been perfectly healthy, normal 'deal'”.

Wasps fans seem unable to acknowledge just how close they are sailing to the wind, their reputation in the financial markets must be shattered. If their credit rating is as poor as suggested elsewhere (in relation to the pitch), it’s little wonder they have been unable to refinance elsewhere.

Wasps had £35m from bondholders, £14m from the CVC deal and probably £10m in Covid support and are still in the financial shit. They could still be relegated if insolvency was unavoidable in May. If they fail to come up with something to satisfy the bondholders, that would be a reasonable conclusion to come to.

Don't forget Compass, Delaware North, DCMS and Government support loans

 

[Gynnsthetonic]

Don't forget Compass, Delaware North, DCMS and Government support loans

Love to know how much they've had overall, it's an absolute money pit and they have nothing to show for it

 

[Gynnsthetonic]

Don't forget Compass, Delaware North, DCMS and Government support loans

Also the training ground which they no longer own

 

[Deleted member 5849]

The reason I posted that from the bondholders forum was because Liquid Gold had said “The second funniest thing behind Wasps going bust would be all the people that bankrolled their franchising losing all their money.” I felt that was a pretty cruel and unkind thing to say.

The bondholders, other than Wasps fans, had no interest in supporting Wasps franchising. The bonds were released after the event. Some holders seem to be professional investors, others ordinary people who saw an opportunity to make a reasonable, above inflation, return on their nest eggs. They all believed it was an investment, not without some risk, but secured against the stadium. Whether they understood that the 250 year lease was not necessarily that secure given the arrangement that it would return to CCC if Wasps went bust is another matter. The bondholders are certainly getting jittery now as they become(quote) “aware of the issues, injustices, sharp practices which WF are foisting on what should have been perfectly healthy, normal 'deal'”.

Wasps fans seem unable to acknowledge just how close they are sailing to the wind, their reputation in the financial markets must be shattered. If their credit rating is as poor as suggested elsewhere (in relation to the pitch), it’s little wonder they have been unable to refinance elsewhere.

Wasps had £35m from bondholders, £14m from the CVC deal and probably £10m in Covid support and are still in the financial shit. They could still be relegated if insolvency was unavoidable in May. If they fail to come up with something to satisfy the bondholders, that would be a reasonable conclusion to come to.

I can acknowledge that that person, on an individual case, I can feel sorry for.

It does prove however the old adage that if something is too good to be true, it probably is! The returns way above anything else should have had alarm bells ringing, really.

 

[Grendel]

I can acknowledge that that person, on an individual case, I can feel sorry for.

It does prove however the old adage that if something is too good to be true, it probably is! The returns way above anything else should have had alarm bells ringing, really.

This is the only retail bond that would default in stock market history.

 

[Deleted member 5849]

This is the only retail bond that would default in stock market history.

You'd acknowledge the 6.5% was a somewhat... high return compared to standard investments however. And the higher return is always because there's more risk attached to it. Nothing wrong with the occasional risky investment, but all eggs in one basket is asking for trouble.

To be clear, individual circumstance can not want me to have that person destitute as a result! But it is a cautionary tale about looking at headline figures and going all-in.

(on that note, time to see how much of my investment Funding Circle have managed to wrench back from businesses )

 

[Grendel]

You'd acknowledge the 6.5% was a somewhat... high return compared to standard investments however. And the higher return is always because there's more risk attached to it. Nothing wrong with the occasional risky investment, but all eggs in one basket is asking for trouble.

To be clear, individual circumstance can not want me to have that person destitute as a result! But it is a cautionary tale about looking at headline figures and going all-in.

(on that note, time to see how much of my investment Funding Circle have managed to wrench back from businesses )

I have no idea what rates were then on these bonds but it had a lot of publicity which gave it legitimacy

Wasps rugby union club launches £35m bond - BBC News

Leading English rugby union club Wasps, which plays at Coventry's Ricoh Stadium, is launching a seven-year bond as it aims to raise £25m to £35m.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[Deleted member 5849]

I have no idea what rates were then on these bonds but it had a lot of publicity which gave it legitimacy

Wasps rugby union club launches £35m bond - BBC News

Leading English rugby union club Wasps, which plays at Coventry's Ricoh Stadium, is launching a seven-year bond as it aims to raise £25m to £35m.

www.bbc.co.uk

Should always look into what you're investing in, and never invest more than you can afford to lose, really.

I mean, I gambled high on spunking my cash away on bank shares during the 2008 fnancial crash, but there was no way I'd have put all my savings into them, as that was a surefire way to end up homeless if it all went wrong!

 

[MalcSB]

Also the training ground which they no longer own

Which they never did own. Despite Vaughan saying it would be totally owned by Wasps. Wasps supporters seem to think being lied to is perfectly OK. Perhaps they are used to it.

 

[MalcSB]

I have no idea what rates were then on these bonds but it had a lot of publicity which gave it legitimacy

Wasps rugby union club launches £35m bond - BBC News

Leading English rugby union club Wasps, which plays at Coventry's Ricoh Stadium, is launching a seven-year bond as it aims to raise £25m to £35m.

www.bbc.co.uk

I don’t think 6.5% was exceptional at the time. The security (the stadium) was certainly an attraction..

I’m sure you will have seen bondholders suggest that interest of 13 to 20% would need to be offered now to reflect the current perceived risk.

Intereatingly (or not!) there were 17,000 bonds traded at 48% of nominal value on 12 Novenber 2020. Wonder who bought them?

 

[Grendel]

I don’t think 6.5% was exceptional at the time. The security (the stadium) was certainly an attraction..

I’m sure you will have seen bondholders suggest that interest of 13 to 20% would need to be offered now to reflect the current perceived risk.

Intereatingly (or not!) there were 17,000 bonds traded at 48% of nominal value on 12 Novenber 2020. Wonder who bought them?

Loxwood Ltd?

 

[oldfiver]

Also the training ground which they no longer own

They never did - but WNTG Limited had local authority funding (allegedly

 

[wingy]

Should always look into what you're investing in, and never invest more than you can afford to lose, really.

I mean, I gambled high on spunking my cash away on bank shares during the 2008 fnancial crash, but there was no way I'd have put all my savings into them, as that was a surefire way to end up homeless if it all went wrong!

All fine except there doesn't seem a way to exit ,so not tight enough regulation if that can legitimately happen.

 

[jordan210]

I’m still waiting for car park C to be turned in to a flying car airport !

 

[oldfiver]

I’m still waiting for car park C to be turned in to a flying car airport !

It was demonstrated opposite the railway station on that car park

 

[Nick]

It was demonstrated opposite the railway station on that car park

Yeah wasn't it just something on display?

 

[oldfiver]

Yeah wasn't it just something on display?

And a flying demo

 

[Nick]

And a flying demo

Where did it fly to

 

[jordan210]

Where did it fly to

I think it was just a static display in the end for a month. Can't find anything about a flying demo from the car park

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Harry Styles booked in for next May, problems solved let the bond holders know.

 

[jordan210]

Harry Styles booked in for next May, problems solved let the bond holders know.

Doesn't the area make barely any money for concerts ?

 

[tisza]

Doesn't the area make barely any money for concerts ?

Don't think it's a huge amount - some rent, parking (most of Styles' fans aren't old enough to drive) and F&B (not sure what the F&B % is)

 

[SHUNT31]

John tends to be in the know more than most, which is unfortunate


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

So maybe the pricks can compensate us for all the lost revenue and pitch