shmmeee
Well-Known Member
I dont doubt your analysis, just Sisus strategy.
Heads out of arses (6 Viewers)
- Thread starter Saddlebrains
- Start date
I dont doubt your analysis, just Sisus strategy.
oldskyblue58
CCFC Finance Director
maybe their investors have said no more cash to Otium ? Maybe they were sure that COH would get sold and they wouldnt need to and when he got injured it screwed up the plans. There should be a point any investor says - no, no more and they have got to that point?. Who knows we will certainly never find out
D
Deleted member 5849
Guest
I've always thought ever since the taps got turned off, in effect we're in free hit territory. As long as there's a chance of conjuring something from nothing, it's worth perservering. The issue (for us) is that it'll always be from nothing.
And that includes stadium, players, whatever. Ultimately any return is bonus rather than expected nowadays, and that therefore means there's no opportunity for risk in putting some cash in.
Brighton Sky Blue
Well-Known Member
So then isn’t the way to give investors even more to sell the club?
Nick
Administrator
Depends how much for.
oldskyblue58
CCFC Finance Director
not if you are looking to maximise revenue & income and the club doesn't cost you anything to support any more - to my mind you pay the Otium loans down then sell the club in those circumstances. There may also be reasons that they need to show income paid not just capital.
Presently I dont think you would sell the "club" Otium Limited - you would sell the assets of the club to another limited company set up to own CCFC. That means funds coming in to Otium to be used to settle Capital and revenue debts, so selling basically the playing squad say £25m? . Where as pay the loans down say £26m on present value and then get £10m for the club thats circa £36m total for example
If the owners are letting the club find its own level based on self financing then that must mean they accept the risk of relegation. That relegation may well reduce the capital resale value but it probably reduces revenue costs, means it is easier to "own" for our owners and players can still be developed and sold on.
Otium is owned by SBS&L and if as i suggest that £28m loan from SBS&L has been all but written off since 2007 anything the investors now get is a bonus - possibly not even the same investors as bought in originally
If we were to get relegated surely that means Ohare, Gyokeres, Hamer, Sheaf will all get sold ? We wouldn't be able to pay their wages. Which of course provides some funding to the club, lower costs the next season, and a pot from which the owners can extract funds
Its all guesswork on my part but i should imagine JS has balanced the options available to her some time ago.
COVKIDSNEVERQUIT
Well-Known Member
Sky_Blue_Dreamer
Well-Known Member
MR seemed to think Eccles had a great deal of potential over the last year or two. He's had a difficult start to this season and been played out of position, plus he seems to get injured very easily. Maybe MR is wondering if he can physically be able to be a regular first team member.
Brighton Sky Blue
Well-Known Member
They could be waiting a very long time in such a scenario
Sky_Blue_Dreamer
Well-Known Member
But if the investors aren't willing to add more it suggests they're unhappy with the strategy and the returns it's providing. If they were happy with it they'd probably be willing to allow a bit more.
And once that's happened and the club are being held back by it, the only real way is down. If you want to sell at the top of the cycle surely that's now? Can you see a L1 club being able to afford to repay £1m+ to the owners every year? I can't.
As others have said, I'm not sure what their strategy is.
You seem to believe that it's to sell players for profits, but we don't seem to be buying the players for that. OK, we're signing a host of development players but all of them seem to be a shot in the dark that they'll even be good enough for our first team, let alone able to be sold for millions. Most just seem to get released after a few years.
With the stadium, I think you can sort of make sense of it if you try and think like an investor if you consider the stadium and club as separate entities, which they would almost certainly look to do, even though in my opinion it's a bit robbing Peter to pay Paul.
The stadium isn't new anymore, and undoubtedly would need maintenance and upgrades to be competitive, especially if they're looking to use it as multi-purpose for concerts/events/conferences etc. as they've got a lot of competition just down the road in Brum. But they would have the guaranteed rent from the club to use it, plus any other events they book etc. They could potentially get catering and parking income.
So if they can get the club running without investment, even if it means it running at a much lower level, and take the income from the stadium as a separate entity they could make a return. It would put the club in a massive predicament and likely decline but they don't care about whether the club is successful on the pitch. They care about what makes them money.
chiefdave
Well-Known Member
If you were an investor in CCFC via SISU would you be happy with how things have gone since they've been here?
SlowerThanPlatt
Well-Known Member
With the ground situation and and then the rundown training ground, I’d be amazed if anybody was seriously looking at buying us
That's not true, he definitely does rate him.
Nick
Administrator
Funny really as Robins is bigging up all the equipment just added at Ryton for injuries,
Sick Boy
Super Moderator
It’ll be a small piece of the investor’s portfolio, so it probably gets balanced out.
D
Deleted member 5849
Guest
Yeah.
a) they might not know;
b) their investment might be done, and it's a punt on nothing. The bigger question would be what investors, as I suspect there are none of note really, beyond SISU as an entity who have a low risk punt on a high sale freebie. tbf to them(!) it nearly came off with O'Hare, didn't it.
Sky_Blue_Dreamer
Well-Known Member
No, but if I was an investor I wouldn't have got involved in any football club as I expect it to be a drain. So I wouldn't be surprised. I'm sure they've got other investments within their SISU portfolio that are making them returns that they are at the very least satisfied with.
I imagine CCFC isn't listed as a specific investment to their clients by SISU - it's probably included within some 'higher risk strategy' in their portfolios
oldskyblue58
CCFC Finance Director
It doesnt have to mean they are unhappy, it could be they have reached their limit, or their advisors best advice is not to invest more. These are investors not gamblers, investors usually have a line they don't cross, a lot of gamblers can get carried away thinking the pot of gold is just round the corner and throw good money after bad. There is no basis for "probably willing to allow a bit more" - thats a fans hope nothing more.
It might be that the investment funds cash is better invested with a current real return somewhere else not in undrawable paper income. The thing to take from it though is that SISU are most probably the advisors and it could be their best advice to the client investor is not to invest more, or perhaps it is simply no more is available.
No one is sure what the strategy is. There seems to be a misconception amongst our fans that they should make it clear. To what purpose? How would that help their investors (could easily damage them). These are not a bunch of financial hicks with money to burn. They are cold calculating and very clever people. Any risk they take is calculated not a gamble. JS is no ones fool. They dont have to tell us or even give us any clues
It isnt a new strategy whatever it is. To our knowledge SISU didnt net invest in CCFC for five years to 31/05/2021. A period where our fortunes on the pitch steadily improved. It seems they havent put much if anything in since either except as a current bank of last resort but we cant be sure on that. They were not in 2017 sitting there saying wasps might go in to insolvency we can stop putting money in to the club , it was quite deliberate to stop funding in 2017. It isnt about being vindictive, its nothing personal, they owe CCFC fans nothing in their eyes...... its just cold hard finance
I have offered a possible different strategy to sitting on their hands waiting for something to happen to the stadium. its a guess i am not precious to it. I just find the stadium strategy idea a little lacking.
The stadium does not make money, it would seem best it has done is breakeven once. It is being suggested that CCFC owning it or a related company would improve that. First off that would mean buying it, even at a knock down price that is still millions that have to be financed and interest on that finance paid, whether directly or by rent etc CCFC get to pay for that i would think.( CCFC being the only income generator)
Currently the stadium seems unprofitable even with the two teams liable for a rent each year. The CCFC rent being a real cash flow not a paper one, CCFC takes over that estimated rent cash flow of say £1m isnt there, wasps probably gone so nothing from them. Stadium still has the same overheads , the same competition, the same renovation needs, still has two or three concerts each year, still has the corporate events .............. where is the money or profits that makes the positive difference to CCFC and in particular the squad?
CCFC already get a share of other incomes. Of course if wasps were gone that would improve but so would the burden of costs grow.
If CCFC is self sufficient and paying rent to a new stadium owner how is that different to now? How is CCFC better off? Maybe worth more on paper, more attractive but how does selling stadium & CCFC to a third party improve things for CCFC unless the 3rd party has other money to invest debt & interest free in the club
That doesnt mean that SISU wouldnt like to get their hands on it and flip it on to another party and make money from that sale but thats benefits their investors not CCFC
Everyone seems to focus on our academy stars coming through. Perhaps the plan wasnt just about our academy stars, perhaps it was other clubs academy players in the last year of contract being given a chance on loan here with a view to picking them up as they come out of contract as well...... COH, Gyokeres, potentially Clarke-Salter was perhaps the intention with Maartsen ? ......... financed from player sales
A strategy is an overall plan, not something that has to happen each year although that can be the intention. So if they didnt make £1m one year i dont see it as a problem in making player sales a key part of strategy. Can L1 clubs sell players for more than £1m ..... yes
We are discussing SISU wanting and waiting to gain the stadium from wasps...... we know that they are still interested in doing that because?
Another thought ....... say wasps goes into administration and a third party picks up the stadium but neither club where would that leave things. Sitting waiting for the stadium to land in SISU's lap is not as simple as it sounds. SAy that third party wants to flip the stadium on to SISU to make their own profit?
It might be that the investment funds cash is better invested with a current real return somewhere else not in undrawable paper income. The thing to take from it though is that SISU are most probably the advisors and it could be their best advice to the client investor is not to invest more, or perhaps it is simply no more is available.
No one is sure what the strategy is. There seems to be a misconception amongst our fans that they should make it clear. To what purpose? How would that help their investors (could easily damage them). These are not a bunch of financial hicks with money to burn. They are cold calculating and very clever people. Any risk they take is calculated not a gamble. JS is no ones fool. They dont have to tell us or even give us any clues
It isnt a new strategy whatever it is. To our knowledge SISU didnt net invest in CCFC for five years to 31/05/2021. A period where our fortunes on the pitch steadily improved. It seems they havent put much if anything in since either except as a current bank of last resort but we cant be sure on that. They were not in 2017 sitting there saying wasps might go in to insolvency we can stop putting money in to the club , it was quite deliberate to stop funding in 2017. It isnt about being vindictive, its nothing personal, they owe CCFC fans nothing in their eyes...... its just cold hard finance
I have offered a possible different strategy to sitting on their hands waiting for something to happen to the stadium. its a guess i am not precious to it. I just find the stadium strategy idea a little lacking.
The stadium does not make money, it would seem best it has done is breakeven once. It is being suggested that CCFC owning it or a related company would improve that. First off that would mean buying it, even at a knock down price that is still millions that have to be financed and interest on that finance paid, whether directly or by rent etc CCFC get to pay for that i would think.( CCFC being the only income generator)
Currently the stadium seems unprofitable even with the two teams liable for a rent each year. The CCFC rent being a real cash flow not a paper one, CCFC takes over that estimated rent cash flow of say £1m isnt there, wasps probably gone so nothing from them. Stadium still has the same overheads , the same competition, the same renovation needs, still has two or three concerts each year, still has the corporate events .............. where is the money or profits that makes the positive difference to CCFC and in particular the squad?
CCFC already get a share of other incomes. Of course if wasps were gone that would improve but so would the burden of costs grow.
If CCFC is self sufficient and paying rent to a new stadium owner how is that different to now? How is CCFC better off? Maybe worth more on paper, more attractive but how does selling stadium & CCFC to a third party improve things for CCFC unless the 3rd party has other money to invest debt & interest free in the club
That doesnt mean that SISU wouldnt like to get their hands on it and flip it on to another party and make money from that sale but thats benefits their investors not CCFC
Everyone seems to focus on our academy stars coming through. Perhaps the plan wasnt just about our academy stars, perhaps it was other clubs academy players in the last year of contract being given a chance on loan here with a view to picking them up as they come out of contract as well...... COH, Gyokeres, potentially Clarke-Salter was perhaps the intention with Maartsen ? ......... financed from player sales
A strategy is an overall plan, not something that has to happen each year although that can be the intention. So if they didnt make £1m one year i dont see it as a problem in making player sales a key part of strategy. Can L1 clubs sell players for more than £1m ..... yes
We are discussing SISU wanting and waiting to gain the stadium from wasps...... we know that they are still interested in doing that because?
Another thought ....... say wasps goes into administration and a third party picks up the stadium but neither club where would that leave things. Sitting waiting for the stadium to land in SISU's lap is not as simple as it sounds. SAy that third party wants to flip the stadium on to SISU to make their own profit?
Last edited:
Sky_Blue_Dreamer
Well-Known Member
Probably not used the best terminology with happy/unhappy. More to do with how the investment is doing compared to their expectations and if it's underperforming they may well have reached a level that they will not be willing to add more.
I'm not precious to my thoughts either - the stadium hasn't been a money-making enterprise and I doubt they're particularly interested in being heavily involved in managing it to improve performance, and they don't have the expertise in that field anyway. Their MO is usually flip it quick or asset strip, though that hasn't been the case with CCFC as I think they misunderstood their investment and mismanaged it.
I accept that CCFC paying a SISU holding company rent is no different to paying Wasps, but I don't think they're concerned about CCFC. If they can find level where they don't need to put in external investment, but can gain money from the club in terms of rent and maybe 'management' charges, they'll be making some form of RoI from the club, which is their real aim.
oldskyblue58
CCFC Finance Director
But they can already do that by having the club pay the interest on the loans not accrue it. Leave capital in place and they can claim 2.2m every year without risking further capital
Brighton Sky Blue
Well-Known Member
Robinshio
Well-Known Member
that doesnt work in league 2 though, as paying 2.2m out of league 2 revenues, quickly sees the club and their investment disappear
Grendel
Well-Known Member
It’s not from revenues but transfer fees - if we sold hamer Gyokeres and o hare in June and had a clear out of expired contracts the interest could be paid for some time by taking percentages of those fees out the club
Sky_Blue_Dreamer
Well-Known Member
But where's the money going to come from to buy these transfers in in the first place if we have lower revenues from being in a lower league. Can't sell for a big profit if we don't buy any to start with.
Or is it that in lower leagues we're more likely to have academy kids come through to the first team and sell them on sharpish while they look decent, like Bayliss etc.
D
Deleted member 5849
Guest
The latter. Also the possibility of the likes of McNulty coming in for free and shining, and any such policy doesn't mean *zero* transfer fees... much as it hasn't at this level either.
Grendel
Well-Known Member
We raised around £11m in fees since 2017?
oldskyblue58
CCFC Finance Director
Hopefully we are not heading to League 2 !!
none of it works well in the lower divisions particularly owning & operating the CBS Arena and financing its purchase. At least with the present level of interest the owners control whether interest is paid or accrued. Get third party finance involved and it is not going to work because of the repayment cashflows 12 months of the year and its on top of the interest liabilities we already have.
we were in L1 when we sold Wilson & Maddison were we not and we didn't buy them in. No one is saying there is a magic spell that creates us sellable players, or can happen every year, but the clubs model is to buy in or develop on the cheap and sell for a profit. Its not a new idea CCFC has always done that. Had they sold COH in the summer no doubt they would have utilised some of that money to try to do it again. Churning players is financially speaking what got us to the Championship
There is an argument that young players get more of a chance to play with us in the lower divisions and therefore gain value quicker. Certainly it is a big step up for a youngster from L1 to Championship so you might expect chances to be more restricted in our current division.
Being in the Championship is one thing remaining there requires substantial additional funding - i have not seen anything that makes me believe that owning the CBS Arena will make that required kind of funding available
none of it works well in the lower divisions particularly owning & operating the CBS Arena and financing its purchase. At least with the present level of interest the owners control whether interest is paid or accrued. Get third party finance involved and it is not going to work because of the repayment cashflows 12 months of the year and its on top of the interest liabilities we already have.
we were in L1 when we sold Wilson & Maddison were we not and we didn't buy them in. No one is saying there is a magic spell that creates us sellable players, or can happen every year, but the clubs model is to buy in or develop on the cheap and sell for a profit. Its not a new idea CCFC has always done that. Had they sold COH in the summer no doubt they would have utilised some of that money to try to do it again. Churning players is financially speaking what got us to the Championship
There is an argument that young players get more of a chance to play with us in the lower divisions and therefore gain value quicker. Certainly it is a big step up for a youngster from L1 to Championship so you might expect chances to be more restricted in our current division.
Being in the Championship is one thing remaining there requires substantial additional funding - i have not seen anything that makes me believe that owning the CBS Arena will make that required kind of funding available
Last edited:
Sky_Blue_Dreamer
Well-Known Member
But it does base the idea that that will be repeated in perpetuity. The likes of Wilson and Maddison are exceptions, not expectations.
Yes, we might have a few come through that look good. We might find a few cheap freebies that we can sell on for a decent profit. But you can't expect that to happen, especially when you're not spending much on it's infrastructure like scouting, training facilities etc. and to base your entire strategy upon is utter lunacy that can only lead to failure at some point.
Grendel
Well-Known Member
They are exceptions but even without them we raised around £5m
You just don’t seem to have any awareness at motives that drive Seppala - it’s purely investor returns
Earlsdon_Skyblue1
Well-Known Member
Whilst that has certainly happened in the past, and with us now with a variety of assets that could be sold for a profit, the conveyor belt has more or less now grinded to a halt. Development players are less likely to break into the first team at this level (as you have pointed out), but the transfer policy itself has turned from fairly measured to downright panic or desperation at the worst, to careless at best.
Whilst players like Kane and Bidwell have an immediate value given their experience and ability, their sell on is next to nothing. Similar can be said for Waghorn and Moore. Bright was just a ridiculous signing in the first place, and I have many questions around Palmer. High wages, dodgy career stats, three year contract. Only Sheaf (which may have been some kind of obligation) and Gyökeres actually fit this so called 'model'. Before that you have to go back to at least 2020.
I have massive red flags over our recruitment and transfer policy in recent times.
fernandopartridge
Well-Known Member
Tbf you cannot recruit exclusively on the basis that they are a player that can later be sold on for profit. The model is really describing how the club seeks to make a return to the investors not what its core transfer policy is.
Brighton Sky Blue
Well-Known Member
Which if she wants at more than a drip feed rate should lead her to sell the club.
SlowerThanPlatt
Well-Known Member
Mark Robins: Coventry City boss says league position 'embarrassing'
Coventry City boss Mark Robins says the club's position at the bottom of the Championship table is "embarrassing".
www.bbc.co.uk
edgy
Well-Known Member
Mark Robins: Coventry City boss says league position 'embarrassing'
Coventry City boss Mark Robins says the club's position at the bottom of the Championship table is "embarrassing".www.bbc.co.uk
I'm waiting to see where we are come November before stressing too much. If we haven't significantly closed the gap to 21st by then we are in big trouble.
And furthermore I think we'll need to have but plenty of points on the board before the transfer window opens.