ProfessorbyGrace
Well-Known Member
This thread should be sealed in concrete and dumped in the North Sea. Deary me.
Heads out of arses (2 Viewers)
- Thread starter Saddlebrains
- Start date
Finham
Well-Known Member
Kane at DMC? Didn't someone once suggest Dabo at DMC and get (rightly) hammered on here?
As for Palmer-and plenty of our other failed signings like Kastaneer-I think that comes down to the pool we are fishing in being shallow. We're not a particularly attractive club to players and we're broke, so we take gambles on supposed potential and they don't come off.
As for Palmer-and plenty of our other failed signings like Kastaneer-I think that comes down to the pool we are fishing in being shallow. We're not a particularly attractive club to players and we're broke, so we take gambles on supposed potential and they don't come off.
Sky Blue Harry H
Well-Known Member
I did wonder myself. Your point echoes Tim Fisher's point that our modus operandi wasn't suited to The Championship. Wages, transfer fees etc.
So won't disagree !!!
Brighton Sky Blue
Well-Known Member
Given they have put in nothing since 2016 they probably just don’t care. It’s all about this Stewart Donald-esque obsession with somehow taking over the ground.
Adge
Well-Known Member
Wouldn’t disagree.
Nick
Administrator
Something you agree with them on then?
Sky Blue Harry H
Well-Known Member
I think it's far too early to write Palmer off yet. He hasn't really had a lot of actual game time to settle in yet and MR alluded to the fact that it would take him a while to get up to speed. He may not work out for us, but it is worth remembering how Sheaf was pilloried early on in his CCFC career. Those knocking him have either gone quiet or been won over.
Nick
Administrator
Thing is, Robins moans he will take time but then refuses to use him to get him match fit.
D
Deleted member 5849
Guest
My memory might be playing tricks, but wasn't Sheaf at least playing regularly early on?
I agree re: Palmer btw, he clearly has *something* and it needs somebody abe to harness it... if they can. Problem is we're running a budget that means we have to take gambles. I appreciate it's a slightly bizarre comparison and at a rather different level, but Benitez's last year or two at Liverpool were spent buying injured players and the like because they were cheaper as a result, but because they took time to get up to speed, he ended up losing his job before they did...
I get that Eccles or Allen aren't a like for like replacement for Hamer. But neither is a right back who has played 3 games in his entire career in midfield, the last one 4 years ago.
shmmeee
Well-Known Member
Were clearly in a holding pattern while we wait to get the arena and it’s so transparent.
Thing is we got back to the dark depths of the EFL again and the Ricoh will be too big and too expensive for us again. The club doesn’t work at this level and the stadium doesn’t work below it. Somethings got to give.
Sky Blue Harry H
Well-Known Member
Think that's a fair assessment @shmmeee , and as a fanbase, we've all got fingers crossed that Wasps implode to enable the football club to obtain the CBS. Hopefully new owners will then be prepared to maximise the potential of the club. The problem is we don't know if this is months away, or several years. I do think there is an inevitability about it though.
Brighton Sky Blue
Well-Known Member
A game of football
Brighton Sky Blue
Well-Known Member
If someone could find a way to acquire both the ground and the club, and was willing to support a few million on top of our turnover for some high potential prospects, that’d be grand and at the far end of what realistically could happen. But Joy thinks she’s still the person to combine club and ground while putting zero into the club.
It will take a Mike Ashley or a EuroMillions winner to get her out.
oldskyblue58
CCFC Finance Director
But sisu don't and never have put the needs of the club before their investors.
I don't think the first objective for sisu is the stadium at all. I still think their first objective is still income and capital extraction which they started in 2018/19 but got halted by the pandemic.
It is based on player sales not obtaining the stadium.They have played their usual hard ball and not achieved it over the summer then got caught out by injuries. Had COH not got injured I am pretty sure he would have been sold and sisu would have had a big slice of funds for their investors.
Pressure from the owners / investors to get their money back and a return is still there and far more short term than getting the stadium because wasps might go bust.
They can extract that capital and income via player sales whether in this division or lower. Are they bothered about relegation?
Obtaining the stadium might be a longer term objective but if the club struggles to pay its bills now how does it do that plus a stadium that doesn't pay its way with two major sporting leases. It would take time to sell and in that time the club would have to fund it. Let alone the cost of buying it out of insolvency
Their strategy is not just about getting the stadium and realising a capital gain that way. Its costly, uncertain and takes time. Clearly they want a return before that without it costing them further millions
Just my opinion, and I could easily be wrong
Just a thought but if we were relegated selling COH Gyokeres Hamer and Sheaf would be an imperative, we couldn't afford them in L1. Large pot available but reduced costs in L1.......
Grendel
Well-Known Member
She may have it in her mind but there is zero chance the club could afford it or certainly afford to run it. Wasps have shown it’s totally unworkable for what are small businesses in relative terms
shmmeee
Well-Known Member
But sisu don't and never have put the needs of the club before their investors.
I don't think the first objective for sisu is the stadium at all. I still think their first objective is still income and capital extraction which they started in 2018/19 but got halted by the pandemic.
It is based on player sales not obtaining the stadium.They have played their usual hard ball and not achieved it over the summer then got caught out by injuries. Had COH not got injured I am pretty sure he would have been sold and sisu would have had a big slice of funds for their investors.
Pressure from the owners / investors to get their money back and a return is still there and far more short term than getting the stadium because wasps might go bust.
They can extract that capital and income via player sales whether in this division or lower. Are they bothered about relegation?
Obtaining the stadium might be a longer term objective but if the club struggles to pay its bills now how does it do that plus a stadium that doesn't pay its way with two major sporting leases. It would take time to sell and in that time the club would have to fund it. Let alone the cost of buying it out of insolvency
Their strategy is not just about getting the stadium and realising a capital gain that way. Its costly, uncertain and takes time. Clearly they want a return before that without it costing them further millions
Just my opinion, and I could easily be wrong
Just a thought but if we were relegated selling COH Gyokeres Hamer and Sheaf would be an imperative, we couldn't afford them in L1. Large pot available but reduced costs in L1.......
A genuine strategy around player sales would involve funding purchases of potential, selling at the right time, and encouraging more young signings.
What we’ve had is a manager told to get on with it as long as it doesn’t cost any money.
I’m sure they’re take a pound of flesh from any sale, but if that’s genuinely their primary objective for the club then they’re more incompetent than I first thought.
shmmeee
Well-Known Member
Ive always thought the ground is a massive red herring, the gap between what we earn and what we need in this division won’t be bridged by car parking and pies.
But why else keep such tight hold of the club? If OSB is right I’ll be drawing my pension before they’re made enough through player sales.
Grendel
Well-Known Member
This strategy has been something of an urban myth - it’s something Ranson also claimed
It’s never really happened other than Mccallum and to an extent Chaplin - the clubs transfer budget has mainly been funded by transfers completed 6 years ago and beyond
shmmeee
Well-Known Member
I do wonder if the once in a generation Maddison sale has skewed their view of how easy it is to produce multi million pound talent
Grendel
Well-Known Member
It’s obviously impossible to work out exactly what fees are from who as they tend to be lumped together But there is narrative and the majority of fees since 2017 are from Maddison and Wilson - it funded tbe return to league 1 and that activity - the Wilson windfall in the first championship year matched the claimed fee for Hamer
shmmeee
Well-Known Member
Yeah it sounds about right. Just musing on OSBs idea that they plan to extract cash from sales, why on Earth do they think we’ll make enough sales to do that without investment? Boddy talks about one a year being the goal. How do you fill that pipeline without investment in potential?
Maddison and Wilson were very rare events that happened close together, so maybe they think we can get one of them out the academy every year. Though they’ve not invested in that either.
Seems almost spiteful at this point to hang onto us without a plan formeerder exit or improvement.
SlowerThanPlatt
Well-Known Member
In part it’s failed because they can’t get the interest at the next level (where all the money is) - the best suitor we could get for O’Hare was in same division
LastGarrison
Well-Known Member
Anyone else read that in a Scouse accent?
shmmeee
Well-Known Member
Oh no! Turning £1m into £10m isn’t easy! Whodathunk?
You either need the funds to spread your risk around, or to bridge the running costs when you can’t sell. There’s no magic “£0 in £50m out” machine of everyone would be doing it.
shmmeee
Well-Known Member
clint van damme
Well-Known Member
I've said that before about the stadium, it doesn't add up.
But I think OSB has a point about their strategy, as do you when you say its being poorly executed.
We're stuck with these bastards indefinitely. Good job the league put the kibosh on 3 month loans.
mark82
Super Moderator
Was more terms with O'Hare than fee I believe. We clearly needed to sell someone though, hence Hyam being sold. I'm not defending anyone, this summer has been a disastrous transfer window.
oldskyblue58
CCFC Finance Director
Look i could be reading it all wrong but the things that make me seriously consider it are
SISU do not look at CCFC as a fan but as an investment commodity that could/should bear capital and income return
2019 accounts - player sales income 4.4m player purchases 700k SISU took out 1.7m. (yes they put money back in FY 2020 but was an unusual period due the pandemic ). I just think they had put the extraction plan in motion and £1.7m is not insignificant
They are clearly not putting net extra money in to the business, have not done so for 5 years to 31/05/2021 as far as we know - so they are letting it find its own level, it would seem not worried by prospect of relegation
There was an old website article from a company owned by Fisher outlining exactly this player sale strategy
Boddy's comments about Hyam sale not being for cash flow - is that a hint the investors wanted some reward? That the reported £1.5m didnt all go to the club?
a lot of our signings have been for the Development or U23 squads havent they? So is it true they are not trying to create a pipeline of talent? It hasnt really bourne much fruit as yet
What is it that they want out financially? well the 9.9m (up until 31/05/2021) of actual cash loan in Otium foremost. Then the interest accumulated on loans to Otium (this excludes amounts owed to SBS&L which charges no interest and is unsecured). Add in 2022 interest and Otium owes capital 9.9m and estimated interest of 16m (that can be forgiven or foregone if the owners choose). So anything over 9.9m extraction and they are in profit. Time periods to clear are not so great then. It isnt necessarily about what they say they have invested or even what it shows in the accounts
In terms of the £28m sitting in SBS&L well that was the original investments funds. Those are now closed and investment ownership shifted to different funds. That would mean transfer at market value wouldnt it ? - how much is £28m worth in investment terms for something with no income and no security. Investors crystallised those losses long ago i feel. The only way SBS&L get paid out is a very long term payment plan (doesnt exist), dividends from Otium (cant presently pay due accumulated losses) or by sale of its shares in Otium (the value of which is devalued by the loans in that company). The amount owed to SBS&L can effectively be ignored and is there only for tax purposes i believe. Again It isnt about what they say they have invested or even what it shows in the accounts
Clear the Otium loans & interest and that company becomes more valuable. Then sell and it maximises capital & revenue return
they are stubborn and inflexible, not going to change that quickly. I look at it and see a long sustained period of financial management aimed at keeping costs to a minimum, breaking even (see 2019 financials) and providing a platform to drawn down income
The stadium "opportunity" has only really come up in the last six months, up until then it was thought wasps had a plan to repay, and i am drawn back to what they were doing in 2019 when they took 40% of net player sales monies.
What happens in the meantime if we get relegated before obtaining the stadium - that seems fraught with all sorts of financial peril
The strategy has largely been derailed by the financial needs of the pandemic. This summers transfer activity effectively got derailed by injury it seems. Had COH got for £10m and add ons SISU could have taken a big slice, indeed if like in 2019 a £4m slice with potential for more in the future ala Maddison & Wilson
Waiting for wasps to go bust is one thing they could be doing yes but it involves substantial financial cost and risk. It is outside of SISU's control and we are royally stuffed if wasps manage to refinance, wasps going in to administration is also not a guarantee that they would get the stadium (this time SISU would not be in control of the process - could easily leave CCFC in exactly the same place it is now, a short term tenant)
Just my opinion and conjecture. Bottom line is that though it wouldn't surprise me that they plan a move on the stadium but i think taking large parts of big transfers whilst not adding new sums of their own is still a focus for our owners
Will it or even does it work - who knows. Much like a lot of things with our owners a plan is one thing it happening the way they planned is another
SISU do not look at CCFC as a fan but as an investment commodity that could/should bear capital and income return
2019 accounts - player sales income 4.4m player purchases 700k SISU took out 1.7m. (yes they put money back in FY 2020 but was an unusual period due the pandemic ). I just think they had put the extraction plan in motion and £1.7m is not insignificant
They are clearly not putting net extra money in to the business, have not done so for 5 years to 31/05/2021 as far as we know - so they are letting it find its own level, it would seem not worried by prospect of relegation
There was an old website article from a company owned by Fisher outlining exactly this player sale strategy
Boddy's comments about Hyam sale not being for cash flow - is that a hint the investors wanted some reward? That the reported £1.5m didnt all go to the club?
a lot of our signings have been for the Development or U23 squads havent they? So is it true they are not trying to create a pipeline of talent? It hasnt really bourne much fruit as yet
What is it that they want out financially? well the 9.9m (up until 31/05/2021) of actual cash loan in Otium foremost. Then the interest accumulated on loans to Otium (this excludes amounts owed to SBS&L which charges no interest and is unsecured). Add in 2022 interest and Otium owes capital 9.9m and estimated interest of 16m (that can be forgiven or foregone if the owners choose). So anything over 9.9m extraction and they are in profit. Time periods to clear are not so great then. It isnt necessarily about what they say they have invested or even what it shows in the accounts
In terms of the £28m sitting in SBS&L well that was the original investments funds. Those are now closed and investment ownership shifted to different funds. That would mean transfer at market value wouldnt it ? - how much is £28m worth in investment terms for something with no income and no security. Investors crystallised those losses long ago i feel. The only way SBS&L get paid out is a very long term payment plan (doesnt exist), dividends from Otium (cant presently pay due accumulated losses) or by sale of its shares in Otium (the value of which is devalued by the loans in that company). The amount owed to SBS&L can effectively be ignored and is there only for tax purposes i believe. Again It isnt about what they say they have invested or even what it shows in the accounts
Clear the Otium loans & interest and that company becomes more valuable. Then sell and it maximises capital & revenue return
they are stubborn and inflexible, not going to change that quickly. I look at it and see a long sustained period of financial management aimed at keeping costs to a minimum, breaking even (see 2019 financials) and providing a platform to drawn down income
The stadium "opportunity" has only really come up in the last six months, up until then it was thought wasps had a plan to repay, and i am drawn back to what they were doing in 2019 when they took 40% of net player sales monies.
What happens in the meantime if we get relegated before obtaining the stadium - that seems fraught with all sorts of financial peril
The strategy has largely been derailed by the financial needs of the pandemic. This summers transfer activity effectively got derailed by injury it seems. Had COH got for £10m and add ons SISU could have taken a big slice, indeed if like in 2019 a £4m slice with potential for more in the future ala Maddison & Wilson
Waiting for wasps to go bust is one thing they could be doing yes but it involves substantial financial cost and risk. It is outside of SISU's control and we are royally stuffed if wasps manage to refinance, wasps going in to administration is also not a guarantee that they would get the stadium (this time SISU would not be in control of the process - could easily leave CCFC in exactly the same place it is now, a short term tenant)
Just my opinion and conjecture. Bottom line is that though it wouldn't surprise me that they plan a move on the stadium but i think taking large parts of big transfers whilst not adding new sums of their own is still a focus for our owners
Will it or even does it work - who knows. Much like a lot of things with our owners a plan is one thing it happening the way they planned is another
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Brighton Sky Blue
Well-Known Member
So why not at least treat it like an actual investment and support the signing of high potential players who can go on to be sold at big profit?
shmmeee
Well-Known Member
Or at least front is the cash for half a season until he can be sold in Jan?