Do you want to discuss boring politics? (236 Viewers)

[Earlsdon_Skyblue1]

By getting the government to put that money that the immigrants put in towards the NHS so it can support the growing population.

You're fighting the wrong battle.

There are still a lot of immigrants that are not contributing though, this is being overlooked. Combine that with little increase in budget, and a fairly inefficient spending policy, and the problem is only going to get worse and worse.

 

---

[CCFCSteve]

One of the few things Johnson did that was worthwhile. Why it got taken away in the first place, God only knows.

Tories reinstate student nurse bursaries two years after taking them away

Payments of up to £8,000-a-year will be handed out from September next year, in line with one of the Tories' manifesto pledges.

news.sky.com

Maybe we need to increase it...

About time as you say. Also, did I read that we limit the number going through medical school ?!

There needs to be a proper long term plan around staffing of nhs and social care.

 

[CCFCSteve]

There are still a lot of immigrants that are not contributing though, this is being overlooked. Combine that with little increase in budget, and a fairly inefficient spending policy, and the problem is only going to get worse and worse.

Probably a significantly lesser proportion of migrants that don’t contribute compared to U.K. born and bred

 

[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

Right, but we aren't going to kick out native UK people who aren't contributing to the NHS positively, and I have zero faith that the Tories will put more in the coffers. As I said, something has to give.

The whole pandemic was an absolute joke as far as the government is concerned, and I agree with you regarding test and trace etc.

So instead we should kick out or refuse entry to those that are contributing positively?

You do realise that if we did that and the population didn't grow via immigration, the problem would still get worse as the amount of money provided per head would go down and the standard of the NHS would suffer even more, especially so given the staffing they provide.

If you have zero faith in the Tories to put money in the coffers, vote them out next time. It's a far easier thing to do that kick millions of immigrants out.

 

[Earlsdon_Skyblue1]

So instead we should kick out or refuse entry to those that are contributing positively?

You do realise that if we did that and the population didn't grow via immigration, the problem would still get worse as the amount of money provided per head would go down and the standard of the NHS would suffer even more, especially so given the staffing they provide.

If you have zero faith in the Tories to put money in the coffers, vote them out next time. It's a far easier thing to do that kick millions of immigrants out.

You aren't reading what I am writing, or prepared to digest it, so let's just leave it there.

 

[skybluetony176]

What limits do you think there should be then?

No one is saying immigration is a totally negative thing. You are doing exactly what you are accusing me of on the other side.

I don’t think we’ve got it that wrong as the system is. The issue is a lack of investment in everything else from housing to education to the NHS. We have a lost decade under Tory rule regardless of Covid. They’ve failed and by every single measure. Which is why they use immigration as a scapegoat. When they’re not blaming working people, unions etc etc. Michael Gove was even blaming brexiteers today for expecting too much from brexit. Or holding the leave campaign to account.

 

[Deleted member 5849]

I agree with what youre saying. My point was that even if the government spent the cash wisely (which they don’t) there’s always going to have to be a period of catch up on infrastructure and that’s not including throwing a pandemic in the mix. You can’t have a population the size of Cov popping up annually without strains on public services

A bigger issue is probably 9m working age people not working. Post covid there is 2.5m long term sick, 500k more than 2019. That’s a genuinely frightening number but a whole new debate. I’d send the bill to China

This is a totally backwards logic.

What actually is being agreed here?

Immigrants are net contributors, meaning more cash is available for the health service.
Government refuses to spend that cash, regardless of who gives it to them.

Therefore... who is to blame for the health service being in a mess?

Because, even critical studies, that move beyond economics, recognise that the main 'cost' to public sector services is in translation services etc rather than direct health care. As immigrants tend to be of working age (and often are working for social care, and the health service itself!) then the issue, if anything, is that we've let a load of the buggers go away, which then creates a vicious cycle where those who are left end up unreasonably stressed as their workload increases, meaning they're more prone to time off, and / or leaving the profession, meaning that those who are left end up unreasonably stressed...

My cousin, for example, is now a team of one, covering an area of 1000 square miles plus. She's seriously considering giving it up because it's too much. Building hospitals is the least of her worries, as she'd still be expected to get to them! OK, training nurses will take too long for her, but maybe we should have fought harder to keep those that were in jobs still there... and I'm not even talking Brexit, I'm talking paying proper salaries and, even failing that(!) paying for proper support for the nurses themselves in terms of mental health and wellbeing(!) Maybe if there was a better avenue for her to actually deal with the stresses she's under, she'd have more likelihood of staying.

We can start with the basics, then look at the grand projects, but whatever we do needs the cash to be spent, rather than denied through ideological reasons. In the meantime, throwing out tangents helps nobody, as the only solution to immigration is no immigration... and then we have even less cash available to fix the problems!

 

[Deleted member 5849]

Also, did I read that we limit the number going through medical school ?!

tbf, I'd quite like my doctors to be limited to the best people, though!

 

[PVA]

People are living longer, and old people take up a huge amount of NHS resources. Plus of course they aren't contributing to the economy. That's having a huge impact (more than immigrants).

Of course the answer isn't kill off the pensioners, it's spend more on the NHS.

 

[clint van damme]

Right, so if we take your figures and give them the benefit of the doubt, the budget is therefore shrinking by 4% a year.

How can the NHS then support a population that is growing?

Even if you are right, which I don't think you are, social care for an increasingly aged population relies on increasing the work age demographic so that major issue becomes a catastrophe if we don't.

And at a time when we have these major challenges ahead we have the most useless bunch of lying charlatans in charge.

 

[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

You aren't reading what I am writing, or prepared to digest it, so let's just leave it there.

Just as you aren't with what me (and others) are writing.

 

[skybluetony176]

tbf, I'd quite like my doctors to be limited to the best people, though!

Think it’s more a case of there not being enough places available to train everyone capable and wanting of being a doctor. Can’t recall the exact figures but it’s pitiful, many are then taking a year out trying again and still not getting in at the second try, the chances of getting a placement still being pitiful despite being off the right stuff. I the percentage of people trying a third time is tiny as they’ve given up altogether on becoming a doctor.

 

[Deleted member 5849]

Think it’s more a case of there not being enough places available to train everyone capable and wanting of being a doctor. Can’t recall the exact figures but it’s pitiful, many are then taking a year out trying again and still not getting in at the second try, the chances of getting a placement still being pitiful despite being off the right stuff. I the percentage of people trying a third time is tiny as they’ve given up altogether on becoming a doctor.

What I don't know, however, is how standards hold up, of those who take a year out then try, how many are denied through lack of places, how many through lack of talent? I don't want us just relaxing entry requirements in panic so any old loon can lop off my foreskin.

 

[skybluetony176]

There’s also the issue of social care and the cuts made to that under austerity and the effect that has on the NHS. 1 in 7 NHS beds are being blocked by patients who can’t go home because they need social care in the community to be able to do so. The NHS had to take up a lot of slack from cuts to social care.

 

[clint van damme]

Think it’s more a case of there not being enough places available to train everyone capable and wanting of being a doctor. Can’t recall the exact figures but it’s pitiful, many are then taking a year out trying again and still not getting in at the second try, the chances of getting a placement still being pitiful despite being off the right stuff. I the percentage of people trying a third time is tiny as they’ve given up altogether on becoming a doctor.

Why train doctors when you can let poor countries do it and then poach their staff and make said staff pay for the privilege.

 

[skybluetony176]

What I don't know, however, is how standards hold up, of those who take a year out then try, how many are denied through lack of places, how many through lack of talent? I don't want us just relaxing entry requirements in panic so any old loon can lop off my foreskin.

I think it’s minimal at best. The standards are so high to be even be considered. The issue isn’t their education/mentality/natural ability. The issue is that there just isn’t enough places in medical school.

 

[CCFCSteve]

This is a totally backwards logic.

What actually is being agreed here?

Immigrants are net contributors, meaning more cash is available for the health service.
Government refuses to spend that cash, regardless of who gives it to them.

Therefore... who is to blame for the health service being in a mess?

Because, even critical studies, that move beyond economics, recognise that the main 'cost' to public sector services is in translation services etc rather than direct health care. As immigrants tend to be of working age (and often are working for social care, and the health service itself!) then the issue, if anything, is that we've let a load of the buggers go away, which then creates a vicious cycle where those who are left end up unreasonably stressed as their workload increases, meaning they're more prone to time off, and / or leaving the profession, meaning that those who are left end up unreasonably stressed...

My cousin, for example, is now a team of one, covering an area of 1000 square miles plus. She's seriously considering giving it up because it's too much. Building hospitals is the least of her worries, as she'd still be expected to get to them. OK, training nurses will take too long for her, but maybe we should have fought harder to keep those that were in jobs still there... and I'm not even talking Brexit, I'm talking paying proper salaries and, even failing that(!) paying for proper support for the nurses themselves in terms of mental health and wellbeing(!) Maybe if there was a better avenue for her to actually deal with the stresses she's under, she'd have more likelihood of staying.

We can start with the basics, then look at the grand projects, but whatever we do needs the cash to be spent, rather than denied through ideological reasons. In the meantime, throwing out tangents helps nobody, as the only solution to immigration is no immigration... and then we have even less cash available to fix the problems!

I was agreeing that, historically at least, migrants are net contributors. I can’t comment on recent years pre and post pandemic as I’ve not seen any data. Unfortunately if they’re contributing more but we have more inactive working age people, then there probably isn’t the additional cash to build the infrastructure for an ever increasing population

I’d argue that the current situation is backwards logic. There was a decision, I think under Blair but continued under Tories to increase the population but with no forward planning. logic would be recognising we need say 200k per annum net migration and then putting the infrastructure in first (or at least starting !) and planning for a larger population. At the moment it’s like a Ponzi scheme of getting more people in to pay for the aging, inactive population, without addressing the increased populations needs. As I’ve said if net migration is 400k per annum, there are new schools, GP practices, hospitals etc that need to be built and staffed annually. Even if enough money was directed into those areas, without proper forward planning you’re always have a lag of massive strains on public services….and that’s without throwing a pandemic into the mix or over austerity friendly governments of the past

 

[CCFCSteve]

What I don't know, however, is how standards hold up, of those who take a year out then try, how many are denied through lack of places, how many through lack of talent? I don't want us just relaxing entry requirements in panic so any old loon can lop off my foreskin.

Especially when you’ve only gone in for an ear infection

 

[shmmeee]

tbf, I'd quite like my doctors to be limited to the best people, though!

Its limited by funding rather than ability isn’t it?

 

[wingy]

Especially when you’ve only gone in for an ear infection

What I don't know, however, is how standards hold up, of those who take a year out then try, how many are denied through lack of places, how many through lack of talent? I don't want us just relaxing entry requirements in panic so any old loon can lop off my foreskin.

A bit desperate we will have considered
Lorry driver's from the subcontinent when we were short,similarly.

 

[Deleted member 5849]

A bit desperate we will have considered
Lorry driver's from the subcontinent when we were short,similarly.

tbh, the fact we wanted to relax standards for lorry drivers (such as checking whether they could reverse!) was what was in the back of my mind!

 

[wingy]

tbh, the fact we wanted to relax standards for lorry drivers (such as checking whether they could reverse!) was what was in the back of my mind!

Yes something like that and going from 7.5 tons to Forty on the original license , bearing no resemblance between the two.

 

[clint van damme]

I was agreeing that, historically at least, migrants are net contributors. I can’t comment on recent years pre and post pandemic as I’ve not seen any data. Unfortunately if they’re contributing more but we have more inactive working age people, then there probably isn’t the additional cash to build the infrastructure for an ever increasing population

I’d argue that the current situation is backwards logic. There was a decision, I think under Blair but continued under Tories to increase the population but with no forward planning. logic would be recognising we need say 200k per annum net migration and then putting the infrastructure in first (or at least starting !) and planning for a larger population. At the moment it’s like a Ponzi scheme of getting more people in to pay for the aging, inactive population, without addressing the increased populations needs. As I’ve said if net migration is 400k per annum, there are new schools, GP practices, hospitals etc that need to be built and staffed annually. Even if enough money was directed into those areas, without proper forward planning you’re always have a lag of massive strains on public services….and that’s without throwing a pandemic into the mix or over austerity friendly governments of the past

The system you describe has been how we've done things in pertuity. And to be fair, it worked.

But we definitely need a rethink.

Without, what you call, the ponzi scheme, I think you mean pyramid, but I could be wrong, we're screwed, if we carry on with it, eventually we'll be screwed!
Massive rethink needed.

 

[chiefdave]

Why can’t infrastructure keep up with it?

That's a tough one, can't possibly imagine what it could be

 

[Deleted member 5849]

So after all this, we can be in unanimous agreement that:

The NHS needs more money.
The government needs to choose to put more money into the NHS

 

[chiefdave]

People are living longer, and old people take up a huge amount of NHS resources. Plus of course they aren't contributing to the economy. That's having a huge impact (more than immigrants).

Of course the answer isn't kill off the pensioners, it's spend more on the NHS.

I think it's maybe time we start having uncomfortable conversations around care for the elderly and if what we're doing is actually of benefit to them. My Dad collapsed Christmas Day 2021 and ended up in hospital. That followed on from around 5 years of regular, we're talking weekly, trips to the hospital for various tests and treatments while they tried to find out what was wrong with him

During that time his quality of life deteriorated rapidly and since being discharged into a care home he is now totally bed bound with no clue what is going on and is often distressed to the point he has to be medicated to essentially knock him out. We're rapidly approaching 12 months of him being in there at a cost of thousands of pounds a week as he needs round the clock care, there's around 30 other patients in the place all in the same situation. As the consultant put it to me medicine has advanced so far we're keeping people alive past the point their brains and bodies can cope with

While I obviously don't want my Dad to die at the same time who is the current situation benefiting? Not him that's for sure, his quality of life is less than zero. Not my Mum or me whose lives are both on hold indefinitely until the inevitable happens, not to mention the mental health impact of going through this. Certainly not the NHS who are spending thousands a week with zero prospect of even the slightest improvement

The amount being spent on this sort of healthcare must be staggering. When he was ready to be discharged from hospital there was a wait of over a month as there was nowhere with capacity to take him. At one point they were looking as far away as Manchester and there wasn't a bed to be found anywhere

It's been an eye opener for me and I will be making arrangements to ensure I have a trip to Switzerland before I end up in the same position. You wouldn't let a family pet suffer like that so why do we put our parents and grandparents through it?

 

[clint van damme]

That's a tough one, can't possibly imagine what it could be

View attachment 27987

And during those Labour years the population was, in general, growing at a faster rate than it is now, I've got a hunch that blaming immigrants is a tory smokescreen!

 

[CCFCSteve]

I think it's maybe time we start having uncomfortable conversations around care for the elderly and if what we're doing is actually of benefit to them. My Dad collapsed Christmas Day 2021 and ended up in hospital. That followed on from around 5 years of regular, we're talking weekly, trips to the hospital for various tests and treatments while they tried to find out what was wrong with him

During that time his quality of life deteriorated rapidly and since being discharged into a care home he is now totally bed bound with no clue what is going on and is often distressed to the point he has to be medicated to essentially knock him out. We're rapidly approaching 12 months of him being in there at a cost of thousands of pounds a week as he needs round the clock care, there's around 30 other patients in the place all in the same situation. As the consultant put it to me medicine has advanced so far we're keeping people alive past the point their brains and bodies can cope with

While I obviously don't want my Dad to die at the same time who is the current situation benefiting? Not him that's for sure, his quality of life is less than zero. Not my Mum or me whose lives are both on hold indefinitely until the inevitable happens, not to mention the mental health impact of going through this. Certainly not the NHS who are spending thousands a week with zero prospect of even the slightest improvement

The amount being spent on this sort of healthcare must be staggering. When he was ready to be discharged from hospital there was a wait of over a month as there was nowhere with capacity to take him. At one point they were looking as far away as Manchester and there wasn't a bed to be found anywhere

It's been an eye opener for me and I will be making arrangements to ensure I have a trip to Switzerland before I end up in the same position. You wouldn't let a family pet suffer like that so why do we put our parents and grandparents through it?

So sorry to hear that Dave.

 

[clint van damme]

I think it's maybe time we start having uncomfortable conversations around care for the elderly and if what we're doing is actually of benefit to them. My Dad collapsed Christmas Day 2021 and ended up in hospital. That followed on from around 5 years of regular, we're talking weekly, trips to the hospital for various tests and treatments while they tried to find out what was wrong with him

During that time his quality of life deteriorated rapidly and since being discharged into a care home he is now totally bed bound with no clue what is going on and is often distressed to the point he has to be medicated to essentially knock him out. We're rapidly approaching 12 months of him being in there at a cost of thousands of pounds a week as he needs round the clock care, there's around 30 other patients in the place all in the same situation. As the consultant put it to me medicine has advanced so far we're keeping people alive past the point their brains and bodies can cope with

While I obviously don't want my Dad to die at the same time who is the current situation benefiting? Not him that's for sure, his quality of life is less than zero. Not my Mum or me whose lives are both on hold indefinitely until the inevitable happens, not to mention the mental health impact of going through this. Certainly not the NHS who are spending thousands a week with zero prospect of even the slightest improvement

The amount being spent on this sort of healthcare must be staggering. When he was ready to be discharged from hospital there was a wait of over a month as there was nowhere with capacity to take him. At one point they were looking as far away as Manchester and there wasn't a bed to be found anywhere

It's been an eye opener for me and I will be making arrangements to ensure I have a trip to Switzerland before I end up in the same position. You wouldn't let a family pet suffer like that so why do we put our parents and grandparents through it?

Have similar experience with both in laws though fortunately they got beds inor just outside Coventry, (they moved on more than one occasion as their levels of care changed).

It cost them their house though.

 

[fernandopartridge]

It isn't any fancy kind of thinking. It is simple common sense. More people = more strain on the health service. If the capacity of services aren't growing at the same rate, then something has got to give. If you cannot understand that then I think it is you that probably needs to have a word.

You are wrong. Immigrants are usually young or very young and pose virtually no strain on the NHS. The NHS main users are the over 65s. I guess you won't be advocating culling the elderly.

 

[Earlsdon_Skyblue1]

You are wrong. Immigrants are usually young or very young and pose virtually no strain on the NHS. The NHS main users are the over 65s. I guess you won't be advocating culling the elderly.

Clueless.

 

[fernandopartridge]

Clueless.

Indeed you are

 

[Earlsdon_Skyblue1]

Indeed you are

I genuinely didn't think you lacked this much intelligence.

You think that more people has no negative impact on an over capacity health service, and that they are spending efficiently within the organisation.

Just don't moan about the NHS in future.

 

[fernandopartridge]

I genuinely didn't think you lacked this much intelligence.

You think that more people has no negative impact on an over capacity health service, and that they are spending efficiently within the organisation.

Just don't moan about the NHS in future.

No, I said virtually no impact and I stand by it. As others have explained immigration supports health service capacity more than pressuring it.

Remember how you used to argue that the people most at risk from coronavirus were the elderly. That same logic applies to all other conditions.

 

[Ian1779]

My mum told me that she’d ‘heard’ if we had safe and legal routes then we would have 5 million extra people here within a year. I said that would be equivalent to 13,500 people every single day in a calendar year arriving on boats or at airports claiming asylum which all of a sudden didn’t stack up…..
She’s completely brainwashed into believing the scaremongering shit that gets pedalled with no concept about what these numbers look like in reality.