Sarah Everard (8 Viewers)

[clint van damme]

They're not mutually exclusive. You can put time and resources into prevention whilst still giving out 'draconian' (proportionate) sentences

Well that's true, but we dont do we?
I'm not sure draconian measures work anyway but I'm sure prevention would.

Look at the Philipines, as draconian as can be and an absolute madhouse.

 

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[skybluetony176]

They're not mutually exclusive. You can put time and resources into prevention whilst still giving out 'draconian' (proportionate) sentences

You can also put in more prevention to cut down giving out sentences. Draconian or not.

 

[rob9872]

Do you ever stop and think before you post? Who do you think trawls through the CCTV, phone data etc? Police officers by any chance? By the way when policing budgets get cut it’s not just officers on the street it’s also things like forensics. The rise in cases getting to court over the last ten years without completed forensic evidence for the prosecution due to budget cuts has skyrocketed.

That's right Tony, it was a serious post. I really thought you'd solved it. Ah well, back to the drawing board I guess.

 

[chiefdave]

Singapore is one of the safest places in tbe world to walk the streets. Why?

no clue mate. but I'm not planning to move there so I'd rather we got a grip on crime here tbh

 

[chiefdave]

I'm saying prison as it stands isn't enough punishment . Make it harder, make it longer, less willingness to risk reoffending and going back.

I don't really have any experience of prison thankfully but it certainly doesn't seem to work as a deterrent so the punishment aspect of it doesn't really seem to work. And the rehabilitation side of it doesn't seem to work either

Not sure what the answer is but it certainly seems the current system isn't working in any way you measure it

 

[Grendel]

no clue mate. but I'm not planning to move there so I'd rather we got a grip on crime here tbh

You were comparing other countries though?

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

Tv, games, recreation time.

Basic diet no treats no rewards, fo your sentence and never want to come back.

Happy to keep the remuneration they earn for menial work to help them start over when they're out, which should be something they look forward to.

Yes I understand what a day is like.

Would it surprise you that in many establishments through lack of staff that many prisoners are in their cell for 23 hours a day??

I really don’t think you do understand.

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

im not even taking death penalty but the Singapore system is the exact opposite of what @Sky Blue Pete advocates and it’s the safest place I have ever visited

Wow what is my system? @Grendel?

 

[rob9872]

Would it surprise you that in many establishments through lack of staff that many prisoners are in their cell for 23 hours a day??

I really don’t think you do understand.

Surely they get some time out for some religious nutjob to visit them and tell them they still believe they can offer much to society otherwise you'd have no point going.

See, we can all be condescending cunts

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

I don't really have any experience of prison thankfully but it certainly doesn't seem to work as a deterrent so the punishment aspect of it doesn't really seem to work. And the rehabilitation side of it doesn't seem to work either

Not sure what the answer is but it certainly seems the current system isn't working in any way you measure it

The prison I volunteer at is a training prison and does some very creative things. As I say spend a few days there and you wouldn’t be the worse off. The problem is multi faceted and will require a number of joined up solutions

As a civilised society we have made certain choices one of which is that the punishment is the loss of liberty and that rehabilitation is essential

Anyone thinking prison is Cushy has no idea what they’re talking about

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

Surely they get some time out for some religious nutjob to visit them and tell them they still believe they can offer much to society otherwise you'd have no point going.

See, we can all be condescending cunts

Wow!! Nope in many establishments there aren’t the staff. Chaplains are members of staff. I am an independent volunteer

 

[rob9872]

You volunteer? You really should've mentioned it.

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

Surely they get some time out for some religious nutjob to visit them and tell them they still believe they can offer much to society otherwise you'd have no point going.

See, we can all be condescending cunts

Sorry if you thought unpacking your suggestions was condescending. Talk me through how you manage 1000 men when they have nothing to do

 

[rob9872]

Sorry if you thought unpacking your suggestions was condescending. Talk me through how you manage 1000 men when they have nothing to do

The condescending part was telling me I didn't understand having already asked. You seem to think a few hours volunteering makes you an expert. Dad spent the last 10 years of his working life as a prison guard mainly at a young offenders sometimes adults, but for G4 rather than directly employed, so I think through him I have some basic knowledge, albeit he was far too soft and they often took advantage.

 

[skybluetony176]

The condescending part was telling me I didn't understand having already asked. You seem to think a few hours volunteering makes you an expert. Dad spent the last 10 years of his working life as a prison guard mainly at a young offenders sometimes adults, but for G4 rather than directly employed, so I think through him I have some basic knowledge, albeit he was far too soft and they often took advantage.

You sure you’re just not recounting an episode of Porridge?

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

The condescending part was telling me I didn't understand having already asked. You seem to think a few hours volunteering makes you an expert. Dad spent the last 10 years of his working life as a prison guard mainly at a young offenders sometimes adults, but for G4 rather than directly employed, so I think through him I have some basic knowledge, albeit he was far too soft and they often took advantage.

Sorry again genuinely

I don’t think it does and I am learning all the time but also it makes you read and understand and listen in new ways to all voices including those who think differently

imprisoned children are different I think and I think the balance is sometimes lost in punishment and teaching in young offenders. Rainsbrook obviously closed locally as it was deemed to be failing

my first experience of prison was visiting a friend around the country who fucked his life up royally but has served his time and is now saving lives in the work he does on a daily basis . Prisons are shit on the inside and for those visiting and they don’t need to be. People don’t reoffend cause they’re cushy they reoffend cause they know no different and repeat the same patterns of behaviour for many complex reasons.
Demeaning ourselves out of vengeance won’t improve outcomes and really will make us less worthy of an appropriate justice system thats already struggling

I wanted to get involved to ensure that for those that wanted to change direction the opportunity was there

I had an opportunity to take voluntary redundancy and so shadowed the governor at Hmp Birmingham for a day that we an eye opener and gave me fresh insight into how difficult it is to manage 1000 men fairly and humanely

I didn’t change career but couldn’t not do something

Doesn’t make me an expert but it does mean that I can help the discussion based on real experiences rather than daily mail headlines.

When you see loss of liberty as the punishment it changes the context of the discussion.

If longer sentences made a difference we’d be seeing the fruits of that as they’ve increased substantially over the course of this current government. Although if you ask society they would perceive they’ve decreased.

If you want to know what works in prison we should ask prison governors and staff. The radio 5 show today the bbc presenter was gibsmacked that prisoners are released when they are still a risk to society. That’s the level of knowledge of our system and that’s why we should talk

Sorry to come across as an arse it’s only cause im passionate about it

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

im not even taking death penalty but the Singapore system is the exact opposite of what @Sky Blue Pete advocates and it’s the safest place I have ever visited

I’m told, as this was debated when cctv as a solution was talked about. Singapore is a police state and I’m sure that would reduce crime but I’m also sure that I and probably you don’t want to live in a society like that

 

[rob9872]

Now that we're on a level, what I can say is that some of the kids came from such shit homes that they looked forward to a spell inside where they got fed and weren't abused, heartbreaking. Unfortunately more of them were simply cunts that would be in and out of institutions and constantly fought the system and authority.

 

[Grendel]

Wow what is my system? @Grendel?

You make an assumption that rehabilitation versus extreme treatment of criminals makes streets safer. It in my experience doesn’t

 

[rob9872]

I've been to Singapore, great place.

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

Now that we're on a level, what I can say is that some of the kids came from such shit homes that they looked forward to a spell inside where they got fed and weren't abused, heartbreaking. Unfortunately more of them were simply cunts that would be in and out of institutions and constantly fought the system and authority.

And I know as my wife and her colleagues went into rainsbrook that there was great work done there as well. It’s probably where Clint makes great points about prevention and spending money there.

 

[Grendel]

I’m told, as this was debated when cctv as a solution was talked about. Singapore is a police state and I’m sure that would reduce crime but I’m also sure that I and probably you don’t want to live in a society like that

Having visited there no that’s not my experience at all - it’s an incredibly free and lineal place

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

You make an assumption that rehabilitation versus extreme treatment of criminals makes streets safer. It in my experience doesn’t

Ok I don’t
The only opinion I have is that if someone will be released we should do something while they are locked up that makes them understand the impact of their actions and minimises their risk to society when they are released.
No problem with whole life tarrifs and sentences in line with the damage caused
No problem that some people don’t deserve to be released

 

[Grendel]

Ok I don’t
The only opinion I have is that if someone will be released we should do something while they are locked up that makes them understand the impact of their actions and minimises their risk to society when they are released.
No problem with whole life tarrifs and sentences in line with the damage caused
No problem that some people don’t deserve to be released

Then don’t release any of them or make them so despised by society they will never offend again rather than tea and sympathy - they deserve nothing and every public penny spent should be on the victims who have ultimately a life sentence

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

Having visited there no that’s not my experience at all - it’s an incredibly free and lineal place

Just reading
So would you be in favour of the state being free to arrest and imprison someone without trial?

 

[skybluetony176]

I’m told, as this was debated when cctv as a solution was talked about. Singapore is a police state and I’m sure that would reduce crime but I’m also sure that I and probably you don’t want to live in a society like that

Just checked. Singapore has almost 4 times the number of police per 100k people than England and Wales has and well over double what Scotland and Northern Ireland has. Probably has something to do with why it’s one of the safest places to walk the streets.

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

Then don’t release any of them or make them so despised by society they will never offend again rather than tea and sympathy - they deserve nothing and every public penny spent should be on the victims who have ultimately a life sentence

Think about that as an intelligent sentient human being and then try again.
What level of crime demands that approach?

 

[Grendel]

Just reading
So would you be in favour of the state being free to arrest and imprison someone without trial?

There’s a joke in Singapore that if you go on the beach and leave your Breitling watch and a towel they won’t even dare pinch the towel

 

[Earlsdon_Skyblue1]

There are many ways you ban spin a debate. For density of population doesn’t Singapore have a very low crime rate? Also Japan?

The BBC did an article on Japan a couple of days ago, having a bit of a pop for not embracing mass immigration.

Japan was the future but it's stuck in the past

The so-called lost decade has now stretched to three. What went wrong, asks Rupert Wingfield-Hayes.

www.bbc.co.uk

Further down it talks about how Japan is a really peaceful country with 'the lowest murder rate in the world'.

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

The BBC did an article on Japan a couple of days ago, having a bit of a pop for not embracing mass immigration.

Japan was the future but it's stuck in the past

The so-called lost decade has now stretched to three. What went wrong, asks Rupert Wingfield-Hayes.

www.bbc.co.uk

Further down it talks about how Japan is a really peaceful country with 'the lowest murder rate in the world'.

As Clint says there is no one solution and what works in Japan and Singapore and Denmark and Sweden wouldn’t work here

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

Anyway time for tea

 

[Grendel]

Think about that as an intelligent sentient human being and then try again.

We just disagree. Honestly genuinely I’d rather give a dog who has bit someone that a man whose raped a woman a second chance

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

We just disagree. Honestly genuinely I’d rather give a dog who has bit someone that a man whose raped a woman a second chance

Yeah we do

 

[Grendel]

The BBC did an article on Japan a couple of days ago, having a bit of a pop for not embracing mass immigration.

Japan was the future but it's stuck in the past

The so-called lost decade has now stretched to three. What went wrong, asks Rupert Wingfield-Hayes.

www.bbc.co.uk

Further down it talks about how Japan is a really peaceful country with 'the lowest murder rate in the world'.

you could walk around Tokyo in the middle of the night with no fear whatsoever but it’s a huge drink culture. It’s one of the most non threatening places I’ve been as is South Korea

 

[Grendel]

Yeah we do

Do you spend as much time talking to the victims of these prisoners you council and take their views on board?