USSR invades Ukraine. (25 Viewers)

[fernandopartridge]

Ukraine and its people would disagree, they don't want talks.

Russia would probably end up asking for talks before Ukraine would.

Which Ukrainian people did you survey?

 

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[fernandopartridge]

Yes obviously if funding is pulled then that changes significantly.

But the US has been very clear that they support Ukraine in refusing peace talks which involve Russia keeping any territory that is not theirs.

The penny will drop soon

 

[PVA]

Which Ukrainian people did you survey?

Oh I didn't realise we cannot take note of any survey results unless we personally conduct the survey ourselves.

 

[PVA]

The penny will drop soon

Well done, let me know when it does.

 

[Flying Fokker]

Key to all of this is what security guarantees Ukraine can get to end the conflict.
Crimea is a major threat as that is where much of the Russian war materials are being brought in from.
If NATO membership is a red line for Russia what can be put in place to protect Ukraine in the future? Ukraine obviously unable to fund its own defence for the foreseeable future due to massive cost of rebuilding the country.
It's possible the backdoor is Ukrainian EU membership with the subsequent protection of the EU army that many states seem to be pushing for but that is in the mid-term not short-term future

Ultimately don't think so. Russia will fight much harder (and longer,) for Crimea. Don't think the external support for Ukraine will stomach a protracted fight over Crimea.

There is the small matter of Ukraine aiming to cut supplies to Crimea. Then the problem of water supplies as you’ve mentioned before? they are going to run out at some point. My guess is that it will start i late spring? The more arms Russia has in Crimea, the easier it is to control the game elsewhere. NATO will keep Belarus quiet. Plus the supply lines will be cut. Then, once the long Range munitions gets lobbed over to Crimea it will be carnage. Bahmut is a warm-up. it has to be held as long as possible.

 

[Flying Fokker]

 

[Flying Fokker]

 

[Grendel]

Ukraine and its people would disagree, they don't want talks.

Russia would probably end up asking for talks before Ukraine would.

So now you talk for every Ukrainian - wow

 

[PVA]

So now you talk for every Ukrainian - wow

There's your world class comprehension skills again.

 

[Grendel]

The penny will drop soon

It never will - he could form an Anschluss of stupidity with Tony.

 

[Grendel]

There's your world class comprehension skills again.

You seem to be losing the room a bit here

 

[PVA]

You seem to be losing the room a bit here

If 'the room' is you and FP then good

Do you know what a survey is?

 

[Grendel]

If 'the room' is you and FP then good

Are you aware what a survey is?

No no idea it’s an entirely new concept. Perhaps you could share the question, the sample size, the recipients, the date and the results.

 

[PVA]

No no idea it’s an entirely new concept. Perhaps you could share the question, the sample size, the recipients, the date and the results.

God you're pathetic

 

[Grendel]

God you're pathetic

Was that the question of the survey?

 

[PVA]

With this and his shaky hands he does appear to have some sort of illness potentially.

 

[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

Well how on earth could it be part of Putin's USSR then if it is fact no longer a state?

Becomes it becomes subsumed into Putin's Russia.

You see that bit on a map that says Russia? And then the bit to the west of it that's called Ukraine? On Putin's map it would all be called Russia. Ukraine would not exist.

Putin has repeatedly said that he does not believe it has ever had 'real statehood'. One of his ministers said "there is no Ukraine" and anyone thinking there was was suffering from a "disorder of the mind".

 

[PVA]

Was that the question of the survey?

The majority of Ukrainians do not want peace talks.

Multiple surveys have showed this.

You apparently now do not understand how surveys work.

 

[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

So now you talk for every Ukrainian - wow

So you talk for them all when you say there should be peace talks?

From what I've seen and heard (which admittedly is going to be limited and likely biased) it seems like there's a hell of an appetite for getting Russia to totally fuck off out of there country.

 

[Grendel]

The majority of Ukrainians do not want peace talks.

Multiple surveys have showed this.

You apparently now do not understand how surveys work.

I’ve asked fir a link to an independent survey which clearly you don’t have

 

[Grendel]

So you talk for them all when you say there should be peace talks?

From what I've seen and heard (which admittedly is going to be limited and likely biased) it seems like there's a hell of an appetite for getting Russia to totally fuck off out of there country.

Im sure there is but then again if they were told the price of that in terms of death and destruction so a decade later the shelling carries on?

 

[PVA]

I’ve asked fir a link to an independent survey which clearly you don’t have

Here's two

In New Poll, 89% of Ukrainians Reject Ceding Land to Reach Peace With Russia

Ukrainians back President Zelensky’s position that peace talks can’t grant Russia land it has seized, WSJ-NORC poll finds.

www.wsj.com

Most Ukrainians think peace talks with Russia impossible

www.ukrinform.net

There are more.

Now show me a survey where Ukrainians want peace talks.

 

[Grendel]

Here's two

In New Poll, 89% of Ukrainians Reject Ceding Land to Reach Peace With Russia

Ukrainians back President Zelensky’s position that peace talks can’t grant Russia land it has seized, WSJ-NORC poll finds.

www.wsj.com

Most Ukrainians think peace talks with Russia impossible

www.ukrinform.net

There are more.

Now show me a survey where Ukrainians want peace talks.

none of these are independent polls though are they? We all know Mr Zelensky is a somewhat corrupt person who controls the media - he was slated by the EU prior to the war for banning media outlets ge considered pro Russia - 3 in total.

So I guess any polls conducted by Russia you would ascribe equal legitimacy to?

Were these polls actually conducted in Ukraine and again the question really needs to be somewhat different does it not?

The point you and your chums on here miss is the actual outcome. You could ask would you rather be alive or dead?

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

So basically,

 

[Flying Fokker]

I’m down a bloody rabbit hole now. In New Poll, 89% of Ukrainians Reject Ceding Land to Reach Peace With Russia

The one caveat to all of these polls is that some of them can be taken with a pinch of salt.

And https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2022/12/13/russian-poll-peace-crimea/

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

none of these are independent polls though are they? We all know Mr Zelensky is a somewhat corrupt person who controls the media - he was slated by the EU prior to the war for banning media outlets ge considered pro Russia - 3 in total.

So I guess any polls conducted by Russia you would ascribe equal legitimacy to?

Were these polls actually conducted in Ukraine and again the question really needs to be somewhat different does it not?

The point you and your chums on here miss is the actual outcome. You could ask would you rather be alive or dead?

I will give you one thing, you are consistent on this. Consistent in focusing more criticism on the leader of the country getting invaded, than the one that has invaded it unprovoked.

Is there a point where you take a step back from just posting to be contrarian and think seriously?

 

[PVA]

none of these are independent polls though are they? We all know Mr Zelensky is a somewhat corrupt person who controls the media - he was slated by the EU prior to the war for banning media outlets ge considered pro Russia - 3 in total.

So I guess any polls conducted by Russia you would ascribe equal legitimacy to?

Were these polls actually conducted in Ukraine and again the question really needs to be somewhat different does it not?

The point you and your chums on here miss is the actual outcome. You could ask would you rather be alive or dead?

Here is the original source of the second survey, it was conducted in Ukraine

Підсумки-2022: Під синьо-жовтим прапором свободи!

Загальнонаціональне опитування проведене з 13 по 21 грудня 2022 року

dif.org.ua

 

[PVA]

I will give you one thing, you are consistent on this. Consistent in focusing more criticism on the leader of the country getting invaded, than the one that has invaded it unprovoked.

Is there a point where you take a step back from just posting to be contrarian and think seriously?

I said it earlier, he's made more posts criticising Zelensky's dress code and facial hair than he has criticising Putin for invading and killing innocent people.

It's fucking absurd.

 

[tisza]

There is the small matter of Ukraine aiming to cut supplies to Crimea. Then the problem of water supplies as you’ve mentioned before? they are going to run out at some point. My guess is that it will start i late spring? The more arms Russia has in Crimea, the easier it is to control the game elsewhere. NATO will keep Belarus quiet. Plus the supply lines will be cut. Then, once the long Range munitions gets lobbed over to Crimea it will be carnage. Bahmut is a warm-up. it has to be held as long as possible.

One of the keys has always been Ukraine being able to reach coastal areas to put the Kerch bridge and naval transports under direct threat. That's a more realistic aim than any direct invasion of Crimea in the short-term.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

I said it earlier, he's made more posts criticising Zelensky's dress code and facial hair than he has criticising Putin for invading and killing innocent people.

It's fucking absurd.

FP does at least believe what he's writing, much as I disagree with it. G however is just doing the usual contrarian schtick.

Ukraine is a huge country and home to an enormous amount of resources that would have an impact here if they were lost to Putin. Not to mention giving him a huge wad of territory on NATO's doorstep. Oh, and casually agreeing to just have Ukraine removed from the map.

 

[PVA]

Being told you can't quote a survey unless

A) you carried it out yourself
and
B) you surveyed the entire population


Is just fucking nuts even for this forum

 

[Grendel]

FP does at least believe what he's writing, much as I disagree with it. G however is just doing the usual contrarian schtick.

Ukraine is a huge country and home to an enormous amount of resources that would have an impact here if they were lost to Putin. Not to mention giving him a huge wad of territory on NATO's doorstep. Oh, and casually agreeing to just have Ukraine removed from the map.

I entirely believe what I say I’ve said it from day 1

 

[Grendel]

Being told you can't quote a survey unless

A) you carried it out yourself
and
B) you surveyed the entire population


Is just fucking nuts even for this forum

Survey

I’m going to give you a million pounds in 12 months. Do you want it?

 

[David O'Day]

Being told you can't quote a survey unless

A) you carried it out yourself
and
B) you surveyed the entire population


Is just fucking nuts even for this forum

when he is in his weird contrarian mode just reply to him with this

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

I entirely believe what I say I’ve said it from day 1

So why do you criticise the invaded country more than the one doing the invading?