WW2. War started for Britain on this day. (7 Viewers)

[fatso]

It’s all the same imperialistic mentality. It’s not apples and oranges at all, it’s all apples. The only apples and oranges is the difference between how Germany educate on their past imperialism and how we do. We have generations who think we’ve only ever been on the right side of history, which simply isn’t true.

As a father of 3 I can assure you they all know about the atrocities of the British empire.

And the atrocities of the French, Spanish, German, Roman, Greek, Egyptian and Mongolian empires etc etc etc.

They also talk about how the good old U.S.A is now the pariah on the global scene.

 

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[fatso]

The British Army led The Killing Times in Australia, it was the British Army that killed millions in India and it was the British Army that did most of the killing of Native Americans during the earlier periods of British rule there. How could it have been anything other than systematic government policy?

Polling suggests that more people in the UK are proud of our empire than are ashamed of it, almost twice as many in fact. There was uproar when Corbyn in opposition suggested that we should teach about the atrocities the empire committed, we have a large element of the press and indeed people in the government who label the national trust as Woke and want to cancel it from telling us the wrong type of history, for instance how buildings in its care was built on the proceeds of slavery. It’s bizarre.

Like it or not, that was the way of the world back then, we were expanding the empire to stop other empires from expanding theirs.

The option to just leave everywhere alone and mind our own business was never there unfortunately.

Trying to project today's moral code on yesteryear is a totaly pointless exercise, the world is where it is today because Empires are still trying to expand, or trying to halt the expansion of others.

Trying to apologise for history is like trying to apologise for being human, we are tribal by nature, and act as such.

Maybe we should just acknowledge (in schools etc) that heinous acts have been committed throughout history by all nations, and spend the time we allocate squabbling about it to trying to all live peacefully.

Good luck with that.

 

[robbiekeane]

I would assume a considerable amount of deaths were from the introduction of diseases and the inability of immunities in the population

Which to be fair, there is an argument and evidence that there was deliberate introduction of diseases like smallpox to speed this up

I agree with most of what @shmmeee has said though. While it is important to recognise the negative impacts of colonisation and empire it does annoy me that recently western and more specifically British imperialism is held up as the worst of the worst and as if it was unique when the reality is it was just the most successful at the time. Still lots of bad and let’s not shy away from that, but it wasn’t anything new and certainly not unique.

All that to say, we should teach more about the good bad and ugly of our past. I for one am embarrassed to admit I didn’t really understand the history of Britain’s role in the americas until I was 18. Genuinely didn’t know about the American war or independence or the history of British occupation. That might have changed now but when I was in school didn’t learn anything about it (I’m 32)

 

[Grendel]

Which to be fair, there is an argument and evidence that there was deliberate introduction of diseases like smallpox to speed this up

I agree with most of what @shmmeee has said though. While it is important to recognise the negative impacts of colonisation and empire it does annoy me that recently western and more specifically British imperialism is held up as the worst of the worst and as if it was unique when the reality is it was just the most successful at the time. Still lots of bad and let’s not shy away from that, but it wasn’t anything new and certainly not unique.

All that to say, we should teach more about the good bad and ugly of our past. I for one am embarrassed to admit I didn’t really understand the history of Britain’s role in the americas until I was 18. Genuinely didn’t know about the American war or independence or the history of British occupation. That might have changed now but when I was in school didn’t learn anything about it (I’m 32)

ironically if you watched the good the bad and the ugly you’d know about the American civil war and it’s brutality

 

[robbiekeane]

One thing that is interesting though is that the willingness to acknowledge colonial past is very different in the US and Australia.

Every meeting with more than about 10/15 people in that we have here in Australia starts with an acknowledgment of country, and paying respects to traditional owners of the land and elders past present and emerging. Takes ten seconds but it’s a nice reminder and a nice touch and helps to make sure no one forgets.

In the US it was almost a taboo subject and people seemed to think that the clock started with the Declaration of Independence

 

[Grendel]

One thing that is interesting though is that the willingness to acknowledge colonial past is very different in the US and Australia.

Every meeting with more than about 10/15 people in that we have here in Australia starts with an acknowledgment of country, and paying respects to traditional owners of the land and elders past present and emerging. Takes ten seconds but it’s a nice reminder and a nice touch and helps to make sure no one forgets.

In the US it was almost a taboo subject and people seemed to think that the clock started with the Declaration of Independence

Well there’s certainly an irony on this forum generally about empire and imperialism and how that’s playing out with US military strategy now

 

[Deleted member 5849]

One thing that is interesting though is that the willingness to acknowledge colonial past is very different in the US and Australia.

Every meeting with more than about 10/15 people in that we have here in Australia starts with an acknowledgment of country, and paying respects to traditional owners of the land and elders past present and emerging. Takes ten seconds but it’s a nice reminder and a nice touch and helps to make sure no one forgets.

In the US it was almost a taboo subject and people seemed to think that the clock started with the Declaration of Independence

I hope it's changed, but I went round USS Constitution about ten or fifteen years ago. While our interpretation boards are vaguely apologetic, their's were all about how they heroically bombarded the spear welding natives with cannon to crush them into the dirt!

 

[robbiekeane]

We killed 10 million in 10 years in India alone for having an opposing ideology to us. That’s just in one country and 4 million more than Jews who died at the hands of the Nazis.

It’s absolutely batshit to compare the holocaust with the British empire. Not only is that inaccurate for the actions of the empire but it’s reductive to the atrocities of nazi Germany regime which is worse.

It’s chalk and cheese. One aimed for global domination by a racially pure state and based on racial hierarchy. One was based on economics and strategic interests and over centuries

 

[robbiekeane]

Well there’s certainly an irony on this forum generally about empire and imperialism and how that’s playing out with US military strategy now

It’s neocolonialism for sure

 

[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

OK. Time to see some sources. Because I’m having real trouble making these numbers add up. Are you counting native Americans killed by European disease here?

I mean “people did horrible shit in the past” sure. But the scale of the Holocaust was something else. There’s nothing in British history close. The Spaniards are probably the closest.

But some of that disease was knowingly and willing introduced into the native population to reduce their numbers, and undoubtedly killed a huge number of people, probably in the millions. That today would be considered biological warfare and mass genocide.

 

[shmmeee]

But some of that disease was knowingly and willing introduced into the native population to reduce their numbers, and undoubtedly killed a huge number of people, probably in the millions. That today would be considered biological warfare and mass genocide.

Hmm, I'd like to see some sources again.

 

[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

I've said nothing of the sort, I simply dont have an agenda against the establishment. Does it really matter how things used to be? It's about what we do today. How many kids at school do you think have 8 great grandparents all born on Britain? I don't and as the generations move on and the world becomes smaller even less. We're not here to apologise for ancestry.

Well, yes of course it matters how things used to be. That's how we learn and don't make the same mistakes when we do what we do today.

And for me that means giving a honest account of what went on. Yes, we can show all the great things that came about because of empire, and the inventions and the buildings. But we've alo got to show that the way those were achieved were by being incredibly shitty to people, not just in foreign countries as we invaded them for wealth and resources, but also our on people by exploiting the poor.

If you don't do that and concentrate on the good aspects, at some point a kid is going to think "well, everything was great when we were invading other countries and exploiting people, so why don't we do that again?" And that kid will eventually grow into an adult and can have those views already entrenched in their head. In fact, if you take a look at the likes of JRM and others of his ilk, you can definitely see that sort of thinking going on as they've been brought up on this idea that Britain and the empire was great and not given any context or contrast. Now it's far too late to try and get him to change his mind.

 

[robbiekeane]

Hmm, I'd like to see some sources again.

• Correspondence between British General Jeffrey Amherst and Colonel Henry Bouquet during the Pontiac's Rebellion in 1763:
Straight up said “"Could it not be contrived to send the Small Pox among those disaffected tribes of Indians?"
also said:
"I will try to inoculate the [Native American tribe] with some blankets that may fall in their hands, and take care not to get the disease myself."
Fenn, E. A. (2000). Biological warfare in eighteenth-century North America: beyond Jeffery Amherst. The Journal of American History



• A journal entry from William Trent, a British commander, in June 24, 1763, stated “We gave them two blankets and a handkerchief out of the Small Pox Hospital. I hope it will have the desired effect."
Waldman, C. (2009). Atlas of the North American Indian. Infobase Publishing.


Let me know if you want anymore….

 

[shmmeee]

• Correspondence between British General Jeffrey Amherst and Colonel Henry Bouquet during the Pontiac's Rebellion in 1763:
Straight up said “"Could it not be contrived to send the Small Pox among those disaffected tribes of Indians?"
also said:
"I will try to inoculate the [Native American tribe] with some blankets that may fall in their hands, and take care not to get the disease myself."
Fenn, E. A. (2000). Biological warfare in eighteenth-century North America: beyond Jeffery Amherst. The Journal of American History



• A journal entry from William Trent, a British commander, in June 24, 1763, stated “We gave them two blankets and a handkerchief out of the Small Pox Hospital. I hope it will have the desired effect."
Waldman, C. (2009). Atlas of the North American Indian. Infobase Publishing.


Let me know if you want anymore….

This does not prove a state sanctioned biological warfare. What sort of numbers are being claimed here?

 

[robbiekeane]

This does not prove a state sanctioned biological warfare. What sort of numbers are being claimed here?

You asked for some sources to back up that biological warfare was deliberately used. Those to me are pretty compelling evidence that it was, by British military officers.

Now you’re asking for proof that it was state sanctioned lol. I’m not really sure what that would even look like but let’s not move the goalposts.

 

[pitts head]

Maybe if we, and others, had not bottled it 1936, and had stood up to Franco, backed by Hitler and Mussolini, it would all be irrelevant.
But nevermind 2 years on Chamberlain had a piece of paper in his hand.

 

[SBT]

Trying to apologise for history is like trying to apologise for being human, we are tribal by nature, and act as such.

Again - who is calling for an apology?

 

[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

This does not prove a state sanctioned biological warfare. What sort of numbers are being claimed here?

Has Grendel hacked your account? Right out of his playbook.

 

[skybluetony176]

This does not prove a state sanctioned biological warfare. What sort of numbers are being claimed here?

As commander in chief of the British armed forces Jeffery Amherst also sat in the cabinet of the British government of the time. Hope that helps, although I suspect that you’re about to use the Trump defence that he didn’t personally hand the blankets over so he’s (and therefore the British government at the time) innocent, much how Trump is claiming he’s innocent because he didn’t personally go to Capitol Hill and riot. As one commenter pointed out it’s like a mafia boss claiming to be innocent of murder because he only ordered the hit, he didn’t pull the trigger.

 

[shmmeee]

As commander in chief of the British armed forces Jeffery Amherst also sat in the cabinet of the British government of the time. Hope that helps, although I suspect that you’re about to use the Trump defence that he didn’t personally hand the blankets over so he’s (and therefore the British government at the time) innocent, much how Trump is claiming he’s innocent because he didn’t personally go to Capitol Hill and riot. As one commenter pointed out it’s like a mafia boss claiming to be innocent of murder because he only ordered the hit, he didn’t pull the trigger.

Still not equivalent to the Holocaust. You won’t convince me the British are the the most evil people to walk the Earth. Sorry. We did what everyone was doing. Spain, Turkey,Netherlands, Norway, France, China, India, all have these sorts of stories in their past. Because that’s what everyone did in war in the past. These are not the same as trying to exterminate the Jews.

Do you think Norwegian kids are guilt tripped over Viking pillages? Spanish kids wracked with guilt about the inquisition?

Can you honestly not see the difference with the rise of fascism is early 20th century Germany and Britains history of colonialism? Do you really think in 2023 they should be treated the same?

 

[jimmyhillsfanclub]

wow......I bet even wikipedia itself is tired of this thread.....

 

[SBT]

Do you think Norwegian kids are guilt tripped over Viking pillages? Spanish kids wracked with guilt about the inquisition?

Not sure why this thread continues to conflate being taught about atrocities and apologising for them, but since you mention it there have indeed been several modern-day apologies for Viking raids and the Spanish inquisition from Scandinavian/Spanish/Catholic officials.

 

[Grendel]

Not sure why this thread continues to conflate being taught about atrocities and apologising for them, but since you mention it there have indeed been several modern-day apologies for Viking raids and the Spanish inquisition from Scandinavian/Spanish/Catholic officials.

Im not sure why a thread has been derailed by a poster whose swallowed Wiki and thinks he’s Simon Shama

 

[skybluetony176]

Still not equivalent to the Holocaust. You won’t convince me the British are the the most evil people to walk the Earth. Sorry. We did what everyone was doing. Spain, Turkey,Netherlands, Norway, France, China, India, all have these sorts of stories in their past. Because that’s what everyone did in war in the past. These are not the same as trying to exterminate the Jews.

Do you think Norwegian kids are guilt tripped over Viking pillages? Spanish kids wracked with guilt about the inquisition?

Can you honestly not see the difference with the rise of fascism is early 20th century Germany and Britains history of colonialism? Do you really think in 2023 they should be treated the same?

Who was trying to convince you that the British are the most evil people to ever walk the earth? Again, you’re adding your own context.

Also who said anything about feeling guilty? Again, you’re adding your own context.

The point you keep eloquently missing is that they’re not treated the same in one key area. Education. We (as a society) get angry when we’re told the complete history of Empire, we literally want to cancel our history. Which is bizarre bordering on sociopathic behaviour. Stark contrast to Germany where not cancelling elements of their history is mandatory.

 

[robbiekeane]

Who was trying to convince you that the British are the most evil people to ever walk the earth? Again, you’re adding your own context.

Also who said anything about feeling guilty? Again, you’re adding your own context.

The point you keep eloquently missing is that they’re not treated the same in one key area. Education. We (as a society) get angry when we’re told the complete history of Empire, we literally want to cancel our history. Which is bizarre bordering on sociopathic behaviour. Stark contrast to Germany where not cancelling elements of their history is mandatory.

I actually agree with you that we need to do a better job of teaching our history objectively. I would say the US is the same. By objectively too I think we also need to include the positives (which doesn’t make it right).

I think the issue is with your comparison of the British empire to the holocaust with is ridiculous as they are completely different.

 

[skybluetony176]

Here you go Schmee. The effects of Empire still being felt today and the sort of ignorance driven by poor education on empire still driving a false agenda.

Voice referendum: Lies fuel racism ahead of Australia's Indigenous vote

Experts express concerns for First Nations people as a referendum debate turns increasingly divisive.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[skybluetony176]

I actually agree with you that we need to do a better job of teaching our history objectively. I would say the US is the same. By objectively too I think we also need to include the positives (which doesn’t make it right).

I think the issue is with your comparison of the British empire to the holocaust with is ridiculous as they are completely different.

Again people adding their own context. Read my first post again. The only comparison I initially made was in education in Germany vs education in the UK. Admittedly is escalated from there but that was in response to some knee jerk reactions to my initial post which in actual fact you seem to be agreeing with. Well, now you’ve gotten over your own initial knee jerk reaction where you accused me “bashing my own” going on to make out I was just partaking in a a bit of Tory bashing for good measure

 

[shmmeee]

Not sure why this thread continues to conflate being taught about atrocities and apologising for them, but since you mention it there have indeed been several modern-day apologies for Viking raids and the Spanish inquisition from Scandinavian/Spanish/Catholic officials.

Because the comparison is made to the education of Germans post Nazism. And to whether kids need to be taught that we were particularly terrible. Or, as they are taught, that everyone was terrible and we were part of that.

It’s one thing when grandad was a concentration camp guard, but who exactly are we blaming here? The kids of coal miners and factory workers? It’s just not the same as the rise of fascism in a population and doesn’t need the same educational interventions. Sorry.

 

[Grendel]

Because the comparison is made to the education of Germans post Nazism. And to whether kids need to be taught that we were particularly terrible. Or, as they are taught, that everyone was terrible and we were part of that.

It’s one thing when grandad was a concentration camp guard, but who exactly are we blaming here? The kids of coal miners and factory workers? It’s just not the same as the rise of fascism in a population and doesn’t need the same educational interventions. Sorry.

Its pretty obvious the education teaching of Nazi Germany would be treated differently to Francis Drake

I went on exchange visits in the 70's in Germany and teaches teaching history then would almost certainly have been in the Hitler youth so its entirely different

Would German involvement in the colonial past be taught more critically than ours - I highly doubt it

 

[Flying Fokker]

Its pretty obvious the education teaching of Nazi Germany would be treated differently to Francis Drake

I went on exchange visits in the 70's in Germany and teaches teaching history then would almost certainly have been in the Hitler youth so its entirely different

Would German involvement in the colonial past be taught more critically than ours - I highly doubt it

Not forgetting Germany’s foray into colonialism prior to Nazism.

German colonial empire - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

 

[SBT]

Because the comparison is made to the education of Germans post Nazism. And to whether kids need to be taught that we were particularly terrible. Or, as they are taught, that everyone was terrible and we were part of that.

It’s one thing when grandad was a concentration camp guard, but who exactly are we blaming here? The kids of coal miners and factory workers? It’s just not the same as the rise of fascism in a population and doesn’t need the same educational interventions. Sorry.

I don’t think we need a taxonomy of genocides in the curriculum, but we can certainly do more to teach our kids a more clear-eyed picture of how Britain ran its empire. Not in the interests of self-flagellation or virtue signalling or whatever, but in giving them a better understanding of why our country and its alliances are the way they are today. As you say, there are few countries with spotless records on this stuff, so why not acknowledge our own? Sathnam Sanghera’s book Empireland is good on this, it’s a quick read.

 

[Grendel]

I don’t think we need a taxonomy of genocides in the curriculum, but we can certainly do more to teach our kids a more clear-eyed picture of how Britain ran its empire. Not in the interests of self-flagellation or virtue signalling or whatever, but in giving them a better understanding of why our country and its alliances are the way they are today. As you say, there are few countries with spotless records on this stuff, so why not acknowledge our own? Sathnam Sanghera’s book Empireland is good on this, it’s a quick read.

How do we teach it?

 

[Razzle Dazzle Dean Gordon]

I don’t think we need a taxonomy of genocides in the curriculum, but we can certainly do more to teach our kids a more clear-eyed picture of how Britain ran its empire. Not in the interests of self-flagellation or virtue signalling or whatever, but in giving them a better understanding of why our country and its alliances are the way they are today. As you say, there are few countries with spotless records on this stuff, so why not acknowledge our own? Sathnam Sanghera’s book Empireland is good on this, it’s a quick read.

Sanghera's book is indeed worth a read, i'd also recommend the Empire podcast by Anita Anand and William Dalrymple, the first series focuses on the British involvement in India but they've covered the Ottomans, the Slave Trade (from pre-historic societies right through to the trans-atlantic trade) and are on to Russia now.

 

[robbiekeane]

Again people adding their own context. Read my first post again. The only comparison I initially made was in education in Germany vs education in the UK. Admittedly is escalated from there but that was in response to some knee jerk reactions to my initial post which in actual fact you seem to be agreeing with. Well, now you’ve gotten over your own initial knee jerk reaction where you accused me “bashing my own” going on to make out I was just partaking in a a bit of Tory bashing for good measure

I think you’ve mistaken me for someone else

 

[robbiekeane]

And to whether kids need to be taught that we were particularly terrible.

I just don’t get this. “Particularly terrible”. What are you so defensive about? Don’t need to teach kids that we were the worst, we don’t have to compare anything. Just have to educate them about it…good bad and ugly. Why is that so bad and why do you automatically resort to whatabouttery?