“Lazy” (8 Viewers)

[Astute]

You're a very angry person clearly .
I disowned my dad 24 years ago after I visited him in hospital and witnessed him racially abusing a poor bloke in the next bed. I walked out after giving him what I thought.

You don't need to lecture me on racism but if you see yourself as some born again anti racist flag waving saviour then great . If you can spot racism " a mile off" perhaps put it to more use in a professional capacity instead of speculation with people you don't know on here.

My eldest daughter is half Asian. Pakistani if you must know.

Born again whatsoever? Go get fucked. I've had enough of this shit. Your most recent posts have told me everything I need to know.

Try sitting there with one of your own children trying to explain why they're not as worthless as others see them. Then you might get my drift.

 

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[Alan Dugdales Moustache]

My eldest daughter is half Asian. Pakistani if you must know.

Born again whatsoever? Go get fucked. I've had enough of this shit. Your most recent posts have told me everything I need to know.

Try sitting there with one of your own children trying to explain why they're not as worthless as others see them. Then you might get my drift.

You said you used to be a racist. Still carrying a lot of anger and resentment by the look of it. You were clearly a nasty piece of work but now it's all gone.

 

[Astute]

You said you used to be a racist. Still carrying a lot of anger and resentment by the look of it. You were clearly a nasty piece of work but now it's all gone.

I've about had enough of
your racism. Would you like me to bring up previous posts of yours?

And I would love you to show the world of what you insinuate.

You're nothing but scum.

 

[ms639]

Going back through this post at this time is a sad indictment of society at large. ‘We’ being the victims this time with Kasey on the receiving end of it but frankly some of the knuckle dragging responses in here are pretty damning.

The OP’s point is eloquently put, backed up by clear statistics and solid sociological fact and there’s tonnes off people responding ‘fuck off’, ‘sad prick’ etc etc.

People find it really hard to be self reflective, acknowledge their own biases and ultimately think a little bit critically.


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[Alan Dugdales Moustache]

I've about had enough of
your racism. Would you like me to bring up previous posts of yours?

And I would love you to show the world of what you insinuate.

You're nothing but scum.

Sure . Knock yourself out . I'm sure trolling this site for evidence gives you a sense of purpose
Name calling is all you've got . The "ex" racist now putting the world to rights . You sound very much like the nasty cynical piece of work you say you once were. Ironic really. .

 

[Astute]

Sure . Knock yourself out . I'm sure trolling this site for evidence gives you a sense of purpose
Name calling is all you've got . The "ex" racist now putting the world to rights . You sound a much like the nasty cynical piece of work you say you once were. Ironic really. .

And here you go. You was supposed to be showing everyone where I said I used to be a racist. Very simple. How many racists do you know that have black children?

And I would be trolling if I showed any of your racist remarks from the past you say. Classic defence mechanisms from yourself. You're nothing but a oxygen thief.

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

Stern John was lazy. Noel Whelan could be lazy.
Dasilva , MVE , Latibeaudier work their socks off.
Simms and Wright don't have the same work ethic.

So that makes me a racist ?

Wright bloody does

 

[Alan Dugdales Moustache]

And here you go. You was supposed to be showing everyone where I said I used to be a racist. Very simple. How many racists do you know that have black children?

And I would be trolling if I showed any of your racist remarks from the past you say. Classic defence mechanisms from yourself. You're nothing but a oxygen thief.

Was I ? Read through your posts .You were from a family of racists . You were "part of the problem "
You said "would you like me to bring up previous posts of yours? " with regard to my "racist comment"
You haven't.

Now you've got " black children" . Yesterday you had an eldest daughter who was mixed race .
Most parents would know.
Perhaps you've forgotten what you previously made up.

At least be consistent because it's clear you're either a liar or you're pissed.

You wrote this at 2am. It shows.

I'm putting you on ignore to give you a chance to get yourself together .

 

[Astute]

Was I ? Read through your posts .You were from a family of racists . You were "part of the problem "
You said "would you like me to bring up previous posts of yours? " with regard to my "racist comment"
You haven't.

Now you've got " black children" . Yesterday you had an eldest daughter who was mixed race .
Most parents would know.
Perhaps you've forgotten what you previously made up.

At least be consistent because it's clear you're either a liar or you're pissed.

You wrote this at 2am. It shows.

I'm putting you on ignore to give you a chance to get yourself together .

What a bellend.

Typical racist. Twist the truth on what someone says to turn tables on them. So now I'm supposed to be a racist for not getting rid of family members earlier?

 

[biggymania]

Unconscious bias ? Really ?
" I think he's lazy because of the way he doesn't try when he's lost the ball, doesn't close down, gives up too easily. It's nothing to do with his race whatsoever "

" Err..... It is. Subconsciously it's because he's black. You just don't realise it. But underneath it's because you're a racist. "

In that case every single criticism of every player who isn't white is racially motivated. Most of it "subconsciously" What absolute tosh. It's almost funny in a subconscious way.
Plenty of white players I haven't liked . Is it because , subconsciously, they're white or does that in fact depend on my own heritage ? .

At no point in my post did I ever say the word racist. In fact my point was more that having a bias doesn't necessarily mean you are racist, but it's important for everyone to understand their own biases and tendencies.

It's pretty ironic that you're mocking the idea of unconcious bias while simultaneously introducing your own .

 

[skybluecam]

To add something to this discussion (which I’m sure certain posters will hate) I looked at some stats that could indicate “laziness”. Unfortunately distance covered per game is not really available without subscription to an expensive stats provider. That said:

Defensive actions (per 90)

Player	Season	Tackles	Blocks	Ints
Wright	23/24	1.17	0.95	0.11
Waghorn	21/22	1.01	0.78	0.39
Simms	23/24	0.61	0.27	0.14
Gyokeres	22/23	0.47	0.51	0.07
Godden	23/24	0.40	0.71	0.15

Do those numbers really line up with the perception that Wright and Simms are significantly lazier than our other strikers?

 

[napolimp]

To add something to this discussion (which I’m sure certain posters will hate) I looked at some stats that could indicate “laziness”. Unfortunately distance covered per game is not really available without subscription to an expensive stats provider. That said:

Defensive actions (per 90)

Player	Season	Tackles	Blocks	Ints
Wright	23/24	1.17	0.95	0.11
Waghorn	21/22	1.01	0.78	0.39
Simms	23/24	0.61	0.27	0.14
Gyokeres	22/23	0.47	0.51	0.07
Godden	23/24	0.40	0.71	0.15

Do those numbers really line up with the perception that Wright and Simms are significantly lazier than our other strikers?

I've never agreed with the "lazy" trope for ANY professional footballer. There was that BBC article which said that only 180 of the 1.5 million boys playing youth football, will play a single minute in the Premier League - 0.012%. It won't be much more for the Championship. To reach that level as an athlete you have to be the best of the best, and you have to have a certain attitude as well. I just don't think being "lazy" and being a professional footballer are compatible, you would be found out way before you made it.

More likely there are other circumstances which sometimes produces the illusion of "laziness" - low confidence, poor relationship with the team/manager, fitness issues, mental health, etc.

 

[JulianDarbyFTW]

Separate to the racism element, but I listened to a podcast with Steve Claridge last night. Under no circumstances could he be described as lazy, he never stopped running. But he said that one manager told him just to stick around the 18 yard box, and not to track back to get the ball, which was totally alien to him. Lack of movement like that would give the impression of laziness, when actually it's just a tactical decision. The player himself wanted to chase around and put in the hard yards, but the manager wanted him to simply occupy the defenders in a certain part of the pitch, and that was all. Obviously, we're not party to the tactics to that degree, and I do think my (our) lack of actual, nitty gritty footballing nous probably skews perceptions of players unfairly.

 

[Skyblueweeman]

I do think it’s important to recognise that these kind of ingrained biases unfortunately cultivate a culture where these more explicit racist acts can happen.

Good thread @robbiekeane . Genuinely missed this one but very interesting to go back and read the original post and then the comments - some 'interesting' viewpoints.

I've quoted one line from your post a few days ago though as I was trying to make a similar point (but likely less eloquently) with the banners over the M69 vs Leicester. If you let people get away with doing such things you're right, it cultivates a culture when such acts are considered ok - they're not.

This whole thing reminds me of my dissertation which I did over 20 years. I looked at positional assignment of professional footballers based on national stereotypes, in the Premier League. It was all based on work from the US in the 60s/70s (Loy and McElvogue if I remember correctly) where they found that black American Footballers were often chosen in positions of pace/explosiveness etc. I wondered if there was something similar with things like 'industrious Germans' playing more central roles or 'fiery latino players' playing more attacking/pivotal roles. From what I can remember, there were some correlations with generic stereotypes of certain nationalities and their desired positional assignment within teams. I got a first class mark for it as well - good job I did as it pushed from a 2:2 into a 2:1!

Anyway, I digress. Interesting topic and good to see some reasoned debate on a serious issue. (as well as some showing themselves up).

 

[Skyblueweeman]

Further to the above actually, I was chatting to someone this morning after Darren Powell was sacked by Huddersfield and we were talking about the under-representation of BAME managers in the league and the rationale for this. We 'guessed' that the % of BAME players in the 92 EPL/EFL teams was probably somewhere between 20-40%? There's not 20-40% BAME managers though.

 

[baldy]

Further to the above actually, I was chatting to someone this morning after Chris Powell was sacked by Huddersfield and we were talking about the under-representation of BAME managers in the league and the rationale for this. We 'guessed' that the % of BAME players in the 92 EPL/EFL teams was probably somewhere between 20-40%? There's not 20-40% BAME managers though.

Chris Powell wasn't sacked by Huddersfield

 

[Skyblueweeman]

Chris Powell wasn't sacked by Huddersfield

You're indeed correct, I've edited to correct it.

The person I was speaking to about this this morning in the referenced conversation was saying that he interviewed Chris Powell about the racism subject and under-representation in management when he was Charlton manager, hence the wrong name.

 

[Nick]

I really never understood the people whinging about Palmer and being "lazy".

Just because he isn't bombing it around at 100MPH at every chance and wasting his energy. He actually puts in a hell of a lot of tackles and tracks back and loves to defend from the front.

Same with Simms, have heard people at the game call him a "Lazy c**t" for not trying to keep a ball in that looked well out, but what's the point in a player just sprinting round and wasting their energy? When it's time for him to do what he needs to do he is always making runs.

Is the distance covered per game published?

 

[TomRad85]

Palmer isn't lazy at all and since he's returned he's been absolutely charging around. He seems to put in a lot of challenges for a player that high up the pitch and a new fire seems to have ignited in him.
Simms is just completely bereft of confidence and was taken out the team just as his performance levels were going up. I hope he's back in for Bristol City.

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[Nick]

Palmer isn't lazy at all and since he's returned he's been absolutely charging around. He seems to put in a lot of challenges for a player that high up the pitch and a new fire seems to have ignited in him.
Simms is just completely bereft of confidence and was taken out the team just as his performance levels were going up. I hope he's back in for Bristol City.

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To be fair, he was putting in loads of challenges even before his injury. (Palmer).

Simms, when we play to his advantages (the channels) he is anything but lazy (see Oxford).

 

[AOM]

Separate to the racism element, but I listened to a podcast with Steve Claridge last night. Under no circumstances could he be described as lazy, he never stopped running. But he said that one manager told him just to stick around the 18 yard box, and not to track back to get the ball, which was totally alien to him. Lack of movement like that would give the impression of laziness, when actually it's just a tactical decision. The player himself wanted to chase around and put in the hard yards, but the manager wanted him to simply occupy the defenders in a certain part of the pitch, and that was all. Obviously, we're not party to the tactics to that degree, and I do think my (our) lack of actual, nitty gritty footballing nous probably skews perceptions of players unfairly.

This literally happened earlier this season, I can't remember which home game it was but people were going mental at Wright and Simms (in the stands and on the phone in afterwards) for not pressing the centre backs. Mark Robins even said after the match they were specifically instructed to hold the centre backs where they were so they couldn't push through to our midfield and it worked.
It's the same type of fans who shout 'Forwaaard'.
Robins asks a lot of his players and doesn't strike me as the type of manager to allow anyone to not put a shift in

 

[ovduk78]

You're indeed correct, I've edited to correct it.

The person I was speaking to about this this morning in the referenced conversation was saying that he interviewed Chris Powell about the racism subject and under-representation in management when he was Charlton manager, hence the wrong name.

Should be Darren Moore

 

[Deleted member 5849]

You're indeed correct, I've edited to correct it.

The person I was speaking to about this this morning in the referenced conversation was saying that he interviewed Chris Powell about the racism subject and under-representation in management when he was Charlton manager, hence the wrong name.

Chris Powell was sacked by Huddersfield!

Chris Powell: Huddersfield Town sack manager

Championship side Huddersfield Town sack boss Chris Powell after just three league wins this season.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[COVKIDSNEVERQUIT]

Should be Darren Moore

I see he's been sacked again, how many times is that now ?

 

[baldy]

I see he's been sacked again, how many times is that now ?

Only 4 tbh plus he did ok at all clubs apart from Huddersfield too

 

[Skyblueweeman]

Should be Darren Moore

and @Deleted member 5849 ...I know - I went back and corrected it and explained my error

 

[Alan Dugdales Moustache]

At no point in my post did I ever say the word racist. In fact my point was more that having a bias doesn't necessarily mean you are racist, but it's important for everyone to understand their own biases and tendencies.

It's pretty ironic that you're mocking the idea of unconcious bias while simultaneously introducing your own .

Where am I doing that then ? Perhaps you can explain how unconscious bias can be measured on an individual basis .

 

[Skyblueweeman]

Further to the above actually, I was chatting to someone this morning after Darren Powell was sacked by Huddersfield and we were talking about the under-representation of BAME managers in the league and the rationale for this. We 'guessed' that the % of BAME players in the 92 EPL/EFL teams was probably somewhere between 20-40%? There's not 20-40% BAME managers though.

@Grendel Interested to know how this one was found to be funny?

 

[skybluecam]

@Grendel Interested to know how this one was found to be funny?

probably because Darren Moore was sacked by Huddersfield, and there's a certain irony in confusing two black managers while making a point about potential unconscious bias/racism.

 

[Skyblueweeman]

probably because Darren Moore was sacked by Huddersfield, and there's a certain irony in confusing two black managers while making a point about potential unconscious bias/racism.

Post #262 explains my error. Let's not try and paint this as some sort of unconscious bias/racism on my part.

 

[Grendel]

@Grendel Interested to know how this one was found to be funny?

Sorry I was thinking of David Brent and the impersonation sketch

 

[Calista]

Good thread @robbiekeane
This whole thing reminds me of my dissertation which I did over 20 years. I looked at positional assignment of professional footballers based on national stereotypes, in the Premier League.

20 years to write your dissertation! Lazy or just meticulous?