I've literally differentiated right there in that post. I know you struggle with comprehension though.
You and your fellow tankies are the binary boys really.
USSR invades Ukraine. (55 Viewers)
- Thread starter Alan Dugdales Moustache
- Start date
I've literally differentiated right there in that post. I know you struggle with comprehension though.
You and your fellow tankies are the binary boys really.
skybluetony176
Well-Known Member
I haven’t excused anything in Ireland. You’re seriously conflating 400 years of history between the UK and Ireland with Putin invading another country in the 21st century. Even what happened 100 years ago took 300 years to get to that point.
We’re supposed to be living in different times and if anyone is excusing what’s happened in Ireland it’s you with your “an agreed settlement will have to be reached involving Ukraine giving up land to Russia” nonsense. On that basis I’m guessing that you don’t believe that a border poll should ever be allowed in Northern Ireland regardless of the Good Friday Agreement? No, I didn’t think so.
duffer
Well-Known Member
Condescending my arse. From someone who responded to another post with a laughing emoji?
It's a straight question, try a straight answer.
Are you saying that we shouldn't support Ukraine against Russia because of elements of our history?
Grendel
Well-Known Member
Even for you this is ridiculous
Sick Boy
Super Moderator
No and I never said such a thing to begin with.
skybluetony176
Well-Known Member
Don’t you like to refer to the GFA as the surrender act? If you’re looking for ridiculous you’re it.
duffer
Well-Known Member
Thank you. So if we leave Ireland out of it, we're back to the question of supporting Ukraine against Russia.
Your argument, I think, is that we should leave them to it, and I accept that you're probably coming at it from a humanitarian viewpoint on that rather than as a Putin sympathiser.
My counter is that it is morally wrong to allow a sovereign European democracy to be overthrown by force by an autocratic dictator. I'd argue that as long as Ukraine is willing to fight for its freedom, we should give them as much support as possible to do so.
In fact I'd go on to say that even if you ignore the moral argument, it's in our own interests to do so - we're weakening a potential threat to other western democracies, including our own, without having to risk our own citizens' lives.
Every geopolitical action is hypocrisy if you go back far enough.
What a stupid fucking comment.
Exactly. It’s the moral thing to do but through any lens letting it play out and Russia to have its way is colossally stupid. There is no situation, framework or justification that make a good argument to not help Ukraine.
All the whataboutism, corruption and hypocrisy don’t change that. The fact that these arguments are literally word for word examples of the Russian propaganda should give people pause for thought. Some staggering stupidity in this thread.
“But the USA and coups. I am very smart.” Fuck me.
Sick Boy
Super Moderator
I was pointing out the poster’s hypocrisy and double standards.
Yep surely when you're literally parroting Vladimir Putin it's surely time to catch yourself and have a think.
Gynnsthetonic
Well-Known Member
skybluetony176
Well-Known Member
What hypocrisy? I think the Irish were right to fight the English for independence. Are you saying that the Irish were wrong?
What are you basing your assumption on that’s the majority of people in the annexed by force areas of Ukraine want to be part of Russia other than some sham elections? Tell us again how you don’t buy into Russian propaganda.
You can point to 100 years of legitimate voting records to prove that the majority of people in Northern Ireland did and still do want to be part of the United Kingdom.
Brighton Sky Blue
Well-Known Member
If Russians had settled in these areas hundreds upon hundreds of years ago, and identified as Russian today in big enough numbers to form a majority, you might have a point. There is also a clearly outlined political pathway for Ireland to be unified if its people want that to happen.
Putin does not recognise Ukraine’s right to exist-once he annexes ‘east Ukraine’ it will not be returned.
Brighton Sky Blue
Well-Known Member
I have only ever heard it referred to as that by two people. Grendel, and a former UDR man who we met in Belfast.
They might be the same, who knows
skybluetony176
Well-Known Member
The DUP like to use it. But they also don’t believe same sex couples don’t have the right to marriage, some of them at least believe the earth is flat, they believe dinosaurs are a hoax and they don’t believe women have the right to ownership over their own bodies. Not exactly good company to be in.
Brighton Sky Blue
Well-Known Member
In combination with the Tories they’ve done great work to destabilise the union they’re meant to care about. But that’s for another discussion
Sick Boy
Super Moderator
I don't think I've ever said "we should leave them to it".
As I've said many times, I believe it's a conflict that no side will win under the current circumstances, and despite what was claimed, Russia isn't about to collapse and Putin isn't about to drop dead. I was even accused of being a Putin sympathiser for saying the conflict is essentially a stalemate, despite it being a view shared by the recently sacked head of the armed forces in Ukraine. I think that the failure of the counter-offensive has made this especially clear; the only way Russia will be defeated is if the West actually joined in the war, which isn't going to happen.
At the moment, the war has the potential to remain this way for years to come, with neither side getting anywhere; Putin knows that Ukraine is wholly dependent on the West and that the appetite to keep funding a stalemate will eventually end. Even compared to last year, there has been a shift after the counter-offensive failed to deliver.
At the moment, the envisaged outcome of it all isn't clear; the labelling of those who bring this up or suggest that Ukraine isn't going to have a glorious victory with the status quo as "Putin sympathisers" is ridiculous.
It’s a fair assessment. As I mentioned earlier in the week it’s how you get from stalemate to a solution that works for Ukraine/Ukrainian people that’s the challenge
D
Deleted member 5849
Guest
Given the system he's set up, I'd be somewhat concerned by who might follow hm into power anyway.
Grendel
Well-Known Member
Even the much heralded Navalny had never any intention to return Crimea to Ukraine and was pretty coy about the overall Ukraine question
Sick Boy
Super Moderator
I don’t disagree but let’s not pretend that the countries in the West are doing it for the people of Ukraine.
Grendel
Well-Known Member
There is an inevitability that an agreement has to be sought and sooner rather than later to save lives.
Sky_Blue_Dreamer
Well-Known Member
An agreement that will be broken in two-three years as Putin wades in again.
Sick Boy
Super Moderator
The alternative is that the West actually joins the fight against Russia, which will inevitably lead to nuclear war just prior to the fall of Putin.
Sky_Blue_Dreamer
Well-Known Member
I know all the options are shit, it's just Grendel seems to think that make a deal, Putin goes away and everyone lives happily ever after. No more war and death.
I'm just pointing out it's bollocks. He would come back again. Conceding anything to him will just embolden him to go further.
D
Deleted member 5849
Guest
I suppose the hope is to get this far has drained enough resources that Russia would need to regroup before going anywhere else, and that could well take longer than when they walzed into Crimea virtually unopposed.
Grendel
Well-Known Member
Funny how someone who portrays themselves as an opposer of capitalism supports US foreign policy
What you are saying e Ukraine fight on until every city is destroyed and they are all dead
Grendel
Well-Known Member
Which will never happen and no one on here really has ever answered the question - what does a Ukraine victory now look like
Grendel
Well-Known Member
Just let it carry on for those two - three years