New number one needed (10 Viewers)

[SBT]

All other things being equal those clangers cost 4 points, Kitching booting it into his own goal cost another one and that's already half the final gap to the playoffs. I can see Clint's point even if I don't entirely agree.

Well as I said, it’s very easy to quantify how many more points we would have without Collins’ mistakes - it’s a lot harder to quantify the direct impact of say, Latibeaudiere and Dasilva starting ~80 games. But there’s zero doubt there was an impact, and I’m willing to bet over the course of the season it was a big one.

 

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[skybluecam]

Ah right, fair enough, like point taken but going forward I’m not mad keen on these stats about the top keepers having to either from lower leagues or be over £5 mil. Of course that’s true for this season but is that always going to be the case going forward? I somehow doubt it?

I think we just need to sign quality, if it costs £1.5 mil that’s fine, if it’s costs £4.2 mil that’s fine. The priority is to get someone that’s just downright good and doesn’t make errors. How we go about finding that player I’ve no idea but that’s personally what I’d be telling the management to be doing if I was Doug

Sorry, if you were Doug you'd be telling the management "just sign quality"? Groundbreaking stuff

Also it's not fine if it costs £4.2m, that's far too much for us to spend on a keeper.

 

[The watchmaker]

Which are you blaming on Collins? This is hysteria imo, neither of the goals were his fault.

We had this with Wilson too when he came back into the team. A clean sheet or two as I recall but people still complained that he hadn't made any saves. Then when he did concede people were moaning that he 'never saves anything' despite not having a prayer with any of them.

That said I didn't feel a new keeper was a priority last season. Wilson won the golden glove and showed he could perform in/was a remnant of a very solid defence. This season, however, I would say that it is in the top 2/3 positions we will be looking to improve.

Those stating that you can still get relegated with a good keeper - of course you can. But the idea that it is not an important position is mad. If the opposition go onto the field knowing there is a chance your keeper chucks it in the net it can totally change the way they play. Frequently conceding first to soft goals and giving away leads will affect moral and change how we play. Fans will get nervous, players will get nervous. The team needs to be able to trust it's goaly.

 

[clint van damme]

I haven’t seen the Ferguson quote - when/where did he say it?

Not sure when he said it but it's a well known quote and it's quoted in this article.

Can you name every goalkeeper to play for Man Utd in the Premier League?

Twenty-four different goalkeepers have represented Manchester United in the Premier League – but how many can you name? We're sure you'll get the most famous names, including the man pictured above, who has made over a hundred more Premier League appearances for the Red Devils than any other keeper.

www.planetfootball.com

John Terry said Chech was worth 12 - 15 points a season to their Chelsea side and Clough said a good keeper was worth 12 points a season and that's when it was 2 points per win.

I appreciate it's a different era now but I think that theory still stands.

 

[clint van damme]

Well as I said, it’s very easy to quantify how many more points we would have without Collins’ mistakes - it’s a lot harder to quantify the direct impact of say, Latibeaudiere and Dasilva starting ~80 games. But there’s zero doubt there was an impact, and I’m willing to bet over the course of the season it was a big one.

That's true, but those of us banging on about the keeper aren't saying get a replacement in at the cost of strengthening elsewhere, we're just saying it's a priority.

But some are saying forget the keeper, spend the money elsewhere! It's short sighted.
We can't bolster one area at the expense of another, we need to recruit wisely.

 

[Grendel]

Why dont you tell everyone then?

A wedding not made in heaven

 

[Calista]

This was a reply to him saying we should spend £1-2m on a keeper and not one from league one. Which would rule out most of the top keepers in this league.

A keeper surplus to requirements in a Prem squad? Someone from a European League or elsewhere?

There are so many possibilities in the world of football, and I don't see why it should be impossible to find what we need within the budget we have.

 

[skybluecam]

A keeper surplus to requirements in a Prem squad? Someone from a European League or elsewhere?

There are so many possibilities in the world of football, and I don't see why it should be impossible to find what we need within the budget we have.

I agree, but that's my point, given our budget it's likely we'll either be signing an inexperienced keeper or someone from a lower profile league, which comes with its own risks. It's not as simple as just going out and paying 1-2m for a ready made championship keeper.

 

[SBT]

That's true, but those of us banging on about the keeper aren't saying get a replacement in at the cost of strengthening elsewhere, we're just saying it's a priority.

If we do invest a sizeable sum in a keeper it will have to come at the cost of strengthening elsewhere - I don’t think we have a big war chest this summer, we will have to pick and choose.

 

[clint van damme]

If we do invest a sizeable sum in a keeper it will have to come at the cost of strengthening elsewhere - I don’t think we have a big war chest this summer, we will have to pick and choose.

I think the consensus is that we won't invest heavily in a keeper, but if we don't get it right, or dont get one of our current keepers back on track, then we'll struggle to sustain a play off push.

 

[BlueSkiesForever]

Sorry, if you were Doug you'd be telling the management "just sign quality"? Groundbreaking stuff

Also it's not fine if it costs £4.2m, that's far too much for us to spend on a keeper.

Well I did put a laughing emoji after what I said

Also all these “stats” about how we should either buy a keeper from league 1 or pay £5 mil for one because it doesn’t fit this pattern you’ve found is just massively convoluted and I just sort of wanted to end the conversation The long and short of it is we need a better keeper and I’m all for us spending money to sign quality, not much else to say really.

 

[BlueSkiesForever]

It's not as though they're deliberately trying to sign keepers who throw the ball into their own goal, but at the same time keepers who are good at commanding their box, shot stopping, and distributing the ball don't tend to be found at this level and certainly not cheap.

Yeah it definitely won’t be easy to find a decent keeper but as Clint was saying there’s loads of great players out there and I’m sure our recruitment could find someone of better quality than Collins if King/Robins gives the go ahead.

 

[wingy]

Has to be a penalty specialist!!

 

[SHUNT31]

It’s not even about the mistakes. Collins’ technique is awful, footwork non existent and seems to flap at everything. No where near the standard required and the only reason he is ahead of Wilson is because Wilson is woeful with his feet. Wilson much better ‘traditional’ keeper if you like.

 

[skybluecam]

Yeah it definitely won’t be easy to find a decent keeper but as Clint was saying there’s loads of great players out there and I’m sure our recruitment could find someone of better quality than Collins if King/Robins gives the go ahead.

Who recruited Collins again?

 

[higgs]

Who recruited Collins again?

Ex chelski

Sent from my SM-A528B using Tapatalk

 

[Mucca Mad Boys]

I think the consensus is that we won't invest heavily in a keeper, but if we don't get it right, or dont get one of our current keepers back on track, then we'll struggle to sustain a play off push.

It really isn’t as desperate as that. We won a golden glove award with Ben Wilson in goal.

The GK errors are obvious blunders you can point the finger at, but as a team, we’ve been conceding far too many chances. This is why some statistics have Collins as one of the leading GKs in shot saved % and match rating. Even during our purple patch between Dec-Jan, our xG for and against was identical which was not reflected in the amount of CS we had at the time.

Personally, I’m far more concerned with the amount of chances we give away as a team and MR has alluded to this more than individual mistakes.

 

[clint van damme]

It really isn’t as desperate as that. We won a golden glove award with Ben Wilson in goal.

The GK errors are obvious blunders you can point the finger at, but as a team, we’ve been conceding far too many chances. This is why some statistics have Collins as one of the leading GKs in shot saved % and match rating. Even during our purple patch between Dec-Jan, our xG for and against was identical which was not reflected in the amount of CS we had at the time.

Personally, I’m far more concerned with the amount of chances we give away as a team and MR has alluded to this more than individual mistakes.

If you've watched Collins recently and not been concerned then I dont know what to say.
He's been dreadful.
As for individual errors, it is possible to be concerned about them and the string of howlers Collins has been responsible for.

 

[Mucca Mad Boys]

If you've watched Collins recently and not been concerned then I dont know what to say.
He's been dreadful.
As for individual errors, it is possible to be concerned about them and the string of howlers Collins has been responsible for.

The operative word is ‘more’ in what I said. There’s two problems and one is more concerning than the other.

Your GK is the last line of defence so the marker of a good team is preventing the opposition chances at goal. For example, this is why the best Prem GKs (Allisson & Ederson) tend to have a lower save % than the likes of Onana (Man U) and Areola (West Ham). Collins, for his faults, has one of the highest save % and xG faced and that’s a problem a good coach like Robins will be focused on.

Apparently we’re in the market for GK so one of those issues will be resolved. We could stick a prime Westwood in goal and if next season we concede as many chances as this season, it wont improve the fundamentals.

 

[clint van damme]

We might conced as many chances, but we wouldn't concede as many goals.

 

[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

I don’t know a lot about him, but noticed he made league one team of the season.

Get Burroughs to give us a scouting report.

 

[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

I feel that you're mis-spelling something here. Would certainly account for his weak grip of the ball anyway.

I think it'd be better. At least his hands would be sticky!

 

[skybluegod]

As Alex Ferguson said, a good keeper is worth 15 points a season, you're massively underpaying the importance of the role.
The outfield players are going to have to do something incredible if a keeper is gifting the opposition a goal every game.

I don't disagree we need to get a good keeper. But I do think the Ferguson quote only applies to a top level team.

At this level, every keeper has errors in them. The Rotherham keeper had a shocker at the CBS. It is probably the one area of the pitch you can afford to not invest heavily in and still get promoted, although it does make it substantially easier if you do have a good keeper of course. Think it all comes down to priorities of money spent. If it's a choice of a better CM/CB or a GK then I think it's an obvious choice.

But it will all depend on money available and players available. If we can't get a decent CM but can get a better keeper, then I'm sure we will and should do that.

 

[Houdi]

Not sure when he said it but it's a well known quote and it's quoted in this article.

Can you name every goalkeeper to play for Man Utd in the Premier League?

Twenty-four different goalkeepers have represented Manchester United in the Premier League – but how many can you name? We're sure you'll get the most famous names, including the man pictured above, who has made over a hundred more Premier League appearances for the Red Devils than any other keeper.

www.planetfootball.com

John Terry said Chech was worth 12 - 15 points a season to their Chelsea side and Clough said a good keeper was worth 12 points a season and that's when it was 2 points per win.

I appreciate it's a different era now but I think that theory still stands.

Exactly I can't believe people are so undervaluing the importance of the goalkeeper spot. The best 2 teams over the past few years Man City and Liverpool have both got world class keepers. When Man Utd were winning multiple trophies they had the best goalie in the World, when Arsenal were known as the Invincibles they had Seaman, these keepers earnt their teams vital points that got them over the line.
Every long-standing Coventry fan will surely never forget, how Oggy's brilliant consistency over many years, was responsible for so many points gained that helped keep us in the topflight by winning many relegation dogfights.

 

[Deleted member 9744]

Exactly I can't believe people are so undervaluing the importance of the goalkeeper spot. The best 2 teams over the past few years Man City and Liverpool have both got world class keepers. When Man Utd were winning multiple trophies they had the best goalie in the World, when Arsenal were known as the Invincibles they had Seaman, these keepers earnt their teams vital points that got them over the line.
Every long-standing Coventry fan will surely never forget, how Oggy's brilliant consistency over many years, was responsible for so many points gained that helped keep us in the topflight by winning many relegation dogfights.

Frankly it's staggering that anyone who has watched us regularly this season could argue that we don't need to sign a new goalkeeper. We lost so many points through truly awful keeping and it is glaringly our problem position. I think we would probably have been in the play offs if it hadn't been for Collins. Genuinely can't think of a worse keeper I have seen for us and it must have been so frustrating for the rest of the team.

 

[Mucca Mad Boys]

Frankly it's staggering that anyone who has watched us regularly this season could argue that we don't need to sign a new goalkeeper. We lost so many points through truly awful keeping and it is glaringly our problem position. I think we would probably have been in the play offs if it hadn't been for Collins. Genuinely can't think of a worse keeper I have seen for us and it must have been so frustrating for the rest of the team.

Why do the stats indicate otherwise?

 

[MalcSB]

In terms of the importance and value of making a significant investment in a good goalkeeper, never forget that Jimmy Hill paid a then world record fee for Bill Glazier while we were in second tier of English football.

 

[Otis]

Frankly it's staggering that anyone who has watched us regularly this season could argue that we don't need to sign a new goalkeeper. We lost so many points through truly awful keeping and it is glaringly our problem position. I think we would probably have been in the play offs if it hadn't been for Collins. Genuinely can't think of a worse keeper I have seen for us and it must have been so frustrating for the rest of the team.

A poor keeper results in a less confident defence on front of them.

Look how important Jordan Pickford has been for Everton.

We can't go spending silly money, but a decent keeper would go a long way to make us more stable at the back.

Some of the goals we have given away over the past few matches have been utterly embarrassing.

 

[AFCCOVENTRY]

I just can’t believe we spent money on Collins.

Love Adi but he needs to stick to coaching and not telling Robins about any ex-Chelsea boys.

 

[Balli001]

Why do the stats indicate otherwise?

Stats are one thing but using our eyes to see the variety of embarassing goals we concede is another.

 

[Mucca Mad Boys]

Stats are one thing but using our eyes to see the variety of embarassing goals we concede is another.

Which applies to more than just Collins. Even past the individual mistakes we make as a team, we concede far too many shots at goal and in dangerous areas. The defensive structure is higher priority and there will be both tactical and coaching changes to be made to improve that area.

MR in his post-match conference has been focused more on this, against Ipswich we conceded 9 shots in the box.

If we can get a better GK in, let’s do it. It won’t make much of a difference overall if they’re having to make several shots a game.

 

[Otis]

Which applies to more than just Collins. Even past the individual mistakes we make as a team, we concede far too many shots at goal and in dangerous areas. The defensive structure is higher priority and there will be both tactical and coaching changes to be made to improve that area.

MR in his post-match conference has been focused more on this, against Ipswich we conceded 9 shots in the box.

If we can get a better GK in, let’s do it. It won’t make much of a difference overall if they’re having to make several shots a game.

I agree, but we can't have a keeper that constantly gives away absolute gifts.

I accept that sometimes a shot can sneak under a keeper. Everyone makes mistakes. But when the keeper is making bad passes and letting the ball under go him and dropping the ball on crosses and pulling out of challenges and punching the ball into his own net, then you have a problem .

I would be happy to give him time, but he also doesn't seem to have any body bulk to him and lacks physicality.

 

[shmmeee]

Frankly it's staggering that anyone who has watched us regularly this season could argue that we don't need to sign a new goalkeeper. We lost so many points through truly awful keeping and it is glaringly our problem position. I think we would probably have been in the play offs if it hadn't been for Collins. Genuinely can't think of a worse keeper I have seen for us and it must have been so frustrating for the rest of the team.

But you’re discounting all the goals he’s stopped. Which is where the stats come in handy. Human brains remember the farcical and glaring more than not, we all remember his fuck ups but then forget the two goal saving saves he makes the same game and say he’s cost us the game. Over a season he’s saved more goals than he’s given away, unlike Wilson, so is it that vital to replace him? Which positions if any would you out ahead of him in the shopping list?

 

[Mucca Mad Boys]

I agree, but we can't have a keeper that constantly gives away absolute gifts.

I accept that sometimes a shot can sneak under a keeper. Everyone makes mistakes. But when the keeper is making bad passes and letting the ball under go him and dropping the ball on crosses and pulling out of challenges and punching the ball into his own net, then you have a problem .

I would be happy to give him time, but he also doesn't seem to have any body bulk to him and lacks physicality.

I agree, the amount of gift wrap goals we’ve conceded in April is a joke.

Correct me if I’m wrong here @Saddlebrains, something has probably changed from MR’s perspective too. The early prospective targets you listed did not include a GK and now we’re looking at a new Number 1. Was this always the case or a new development?

Reading between the lines, I would say say yes.

Sweeper keepers are in fashion now and they will make mistakes - look at Raya gifting an absolute howler v Spurs the other day. If we sign a keeper, they will be playing that way.

 

[clint van damme]

But you’re discounting all the goals he’s stopped. Which is where the stats come in handy. Human brains remember the farcical and glaring more than not, we all remember his fuck ups but then forget the two goal saving saves he makes the same game and say he’s cost us the game. Over a season he’s saved more goals than he’s given away, unlike Wilson, so is it that vital to replace him? Which positions if any would you out ahead of him in the shopping list?

It's not a case of 'outing' other positions, but you prioritise the keeper and work from there.
It mine mean eating in to the budget for other positions, but like I said, that's why you have to be smart when recruiting.