Do you want to discuss boring politics? (118 Viewers)

[CCFCSteve]

I could forgive him for welcoming a right wing tory, but the rape case shenanigans, not a fucking chance.

It’s a very strange move from both sides. How does moving to labour ‘stop the boats’ (which appears to have been her big issue/focus) ? How does welcoming her do anything for labours credibility/standing.

Its weirdness also means it probably doesn’t damage Sunak much either

 

---

[shmmeee]

What concessions did Cameron make exactly? Vowing to continue austerity and hold a Brexit vote?

Brexit and austerity. The entirely of politics.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Brexit and austerity. The entirely of politics.

Not answering the question but hey Ho

 

[shmmeee]

Not answering the question but hey Ho

Google your own shit if you aren’t old enough to remember 2010 man. But climate, social policy, tax rates, to name but three things that the right wing equivalent of you are currently upset about.

The Tories spent years rehabilitating their image after being right wing nutters so they could get a hearing with the electorate.

This is all very very basic politics. I’m genuinely a bit shocked stating it gets so much push back on here. The cycle is the same for every party: lose election, only base left, they say “be more like us it’s the only way”, lose election even harder, possibly repeat, eventually moderate towards the median voter to get elected again, base claims you’ve sold out, eventually lose election, only base left, they say “be more like us it’s the only way”, and the cycle begins anew.

 

[Grendel]

Google your own shit if you aren’t old enough to remember 2010 man. But climate, social policy, tax rates, to name but three things that the right wing equivalent of you are currently upset about.

The Tories spent years rehabilitating their image after being right wing nutters so they could get a hearing with the electorate.

This is all very very basic politics. I’m genuinely a bit shocked stating it gets so much push back on here. The cycle is the same for every party: lose election, only base left, they say “be more like us it’s the only way”, lose election even harder, possibly repeat, eventually moderate towards the median voter to get elected again, base claims you’ve sold out, eventually lose election, only base left, they say “be more like us it’s the only way”, and the cycle begins anew.

The decision for “Sir Softie” to recruit Elphick is just bizarre.

She is on the right of the Tory party

It’s pissed off many of his own MPs and says what? Labour are the party of the right? Is Baker and Reece Mogg the next two?

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

The decision for “Sir Softie” to recruit Elphick is just bizarre.

She is on the right of the Tory party

It’s pissed off many of his own MPs and says what? Labour are the party of the right? Is Baker and Reece Mogg the next two?

I assume he’s gotten drunk off Daily Mail approval

 

[CCFCSteve]

Google your own shit if you aren’t old enough to remember 2010 man. But climate, social policy, tax rates, to name but three things that the right wing equivalent of you are currently upset about.

The Tories spent years rehabilitating their image after being right wing nutters so they could get a hearing with the electorate.

This is all very very basic politics. I’m genuinely a bit shocked stating it gets so much push back on here. The cycle is the same for every party: lose election, only base left, they say “be more like us it’s the only way”, lose election even harder, possibly repeat, eventually moderate towards the median voter to get elected again, base claims you’ve sold out, eventually lose election, only base left, they say “be more like us it’s the only way”, and the cycle begins anew.

Agree with this. Political parties need to shift sufficiently to secure enough of a proportion of the vote to win the election. As you say, it’s basic politics.

Elphicke’s defection doesn’t reflect this though. All I’m thinking about when I see this and people like Zahawi stepping down at next election (no great shame) is that many politicians are just in it for themselves and lack any principles or willingness to fight for them

 

[shmmeee]

The decision for “Sir Softie” to recruit Elphick is just bizarre.

She is on the right of the Tory party

It’s pissed off many of his own MPs and says what? Labour are the party of the right? Is Baker and Reece Mogg the next two?

Having more MPs is better than having fewer.

Seriously guys, can you just all take ten minutes on here and then we can talk?

Easy peasy politics: How it all works - BBC Bitesize

Easy peasy politics for 11-14 year olds in Wales.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[shmmeee]

Agree with this. Political parties need to shift sufficiently to secure enough of a proportion of the vote to win the election. As you say, it’s basic politics.

Elphicke’s defection doesn’t reflect this though. All I’m thinking about when I see this and people like Zahawi stepping down at next election (no great shame) is that many politicians are just in it for themselves and lack any principles or willingness to fight for them

My reply was to BSB claiming the Tories never have to moderate.

On this: Nah it’s a PR play and that’s it. But are you going to turn down the MP for Dover saying the Tories are a bust when stopping boats is their big thing?

She’s gone at the next election. She’s already elected. I really don’t get the pearl clutching.

 

[PVA]

Having more MPs is better than having fewer.

Seriously guys, can you just all take ten minutes on here and then we can talk?

Easy peasy politics: How it all works - BBC Bitesize

Easy peasy politics for 11-14 year olds in Wales.

www.bbc.co.uk

It's absolutely crackers isn't it.

No one is going to have to put a X next to her name. Nobody is going to have to vote for a Labour Party containing Natalie Elphicke.


Everyone in here:

 

[David O'Day]

More good news for the Tory Labour boys -

David Lammy tells US Republicans he can find ‘common cause’ with Trump

In Washington DC speech, shadow foreign secretary says Labour ‘will always work with US, whoever wins’

www.theguardian.com

Shock, likely next foreign sec. doesn't want to piss off potential next us president

 

[shmmeee]

It's absolutely crackers isn't it.

No one is going to have to put a X next to her name. Nobody is going to have to vote for a Labour Party containing Natalie Elphicke.


Everyone in here:

“This person with crazy right wing views has signed up to vote according to the Labour whip and I’m here to tell you this is a bad thing. She should be free to vote according to her crazy views in the crazy party. Iamaveryseriouslyconcerned”

 

[Grendel]

It's absolutely crackers isn't it.

No one is going to have to put a X next to her name. Nobody is going to have to vote for a Labour Party containing Natalie Elphicke.


Everyone in here:

Lol is Shmmeee your new father figure telling you how to vote?

If its "crackers" why are his own MPs pissed off with Sir Softie?

 

[shmmeee]

Literally first post I see opening Twitter.

 

[PVA]

If its "crackers" why are his own MPs pissed off with Sir Softie?

If they're so concerned and so principled I guess they'll be resigning in their droves right?

 

[CCFCSteve]

My reply was to BSB claiming the Tories never have to moderate.

On this: Nah it’s a PR play and that’s it. But are you going to turn down the MP for Dover saying the Tories are a bust when stopping boats is their big thing?

She’s gone at the next election. She’s already elected. I really don’t get the pearl clutching.

Yeah, the Elphicke comment wasn’t in response to yours, more general observation that it doesn’t really make sense, or reflect well on anyway.

If I was starmer I personally wouldn’t have admitted her, no need really. Let her defect to reform and comment on the shambles from afar

 

[Grendel]

Literally first post I see opening Twitter.

Or the Labour Party are now the Tory Party under a red rossette with Sir Softie the true new Cameron

 

[Grendel]

If they're so concerned and so principled I guess they'll be resigning in their droves right?

Why would anyone with principles do that? If Neil Kinnock and Denis Healey took that approach there would not be a Labour Party anymore

 

[Liquid Gold]

For those “let’s win Tories over” people. Can I please ask where the limit is?

Would you take Reece-Mogg? Would a Tommy Robinson endorsement be ok?

I get winning over undecideds and doing damage to your rivals but surely there is a limit to what you take without abandoning your principles.

 

[shmmeee]

Or the Labour Party are now the Tory Party under a red rossette with Sir Softie the true new Cameron

You mean someone who took a party that was beaten electorally because of their commitment to grievance politics and made them electable through moderation?

Yeah, probably. Just like every PM who came from opposition.

 

[shmmeee]

For those “let’s win Tories over” people. Can I please ask where the limit is?

Would you take Reece-Mogg? Would a Tommy Robinson endorsement be ok?

I get winning over undecideds and doing damage to your rivals but surely there is a limit to what you take without abandoning your principles.

Yes. I want a Labour government. Ideally I want only Labour MPs and only Labour votes. I believe left wing policies can serve everyone. I think Robinson and Mogg are wrong with their current hypotheses on how to fix society and then signing up for Labour instead would be good news.

You see electoral politics as a badge of honour, I see it as a tool for change. That’s the fundamental difference here.

 

[shmmeee]

This is the political equivalent of moaning about day trippers at the CBS.

 

[Liquid Gold]

Yes. I want a Labour government. Ideally I want only Labour MPs and only Labour votes. I believe left wing policies can serve everyone. I think Robinson and Mogg are wrong with their current hypotheses on how to fix society and then signing up for Labour instead would be good news.

You see electoral politics as a badge of honour, I see it as a tool for change. That’s the fundamental difference here.

I don’t see the point in winning if your party contains the views of Rees-Mogg and Robinson though. The point is to win and make the change you want based on what you genuinely believe is best for the country. Not win at any means necessary and end up following the same failed model as the last lot.

 

[shmmeee]

I don’t see the point in winning if your party contains the views of Rees-Mogg and Robinson though. The point is to win and make the change you want based on what you genuinely believe is best for the country. Not win at any means necessary and end up following the same failed model as the last lot.

Whoever is in the party signs up for the whip and the manifesto. We are talking about the most left wing Labour leader bar Corbyn since Foot here. Going in promising nationalisation, workers rights, climate action, house building. What principle exactly do you hold so dear it trumps those?

 

[Liquid Gold]

Whoever is in the party signs up for the whip and the manifesto. We are talking about the most left wing Labour leader bar Corbyn since Foot here. Going in promising nationalisation, workers rights, climate action, house building. What principle exactly do you hold so dear it trumps those?

I eagerly await to see all of those things in the manifesto. At the moment he flys by the wind so much nobody can be sure.

My mum is one that has always voted Labour her whole life but said she won’t vote for Starmer because he lacks principle. She’s not some old socialist either. I think it’s a big gamble to be sucking up the rightest of right wingers when you can just convince people of positive change.

 

[skybluetony176]

Having more MPs is better than having fewer.

Seriously guys, can you just all take ten minutes on here and then we can talk?

Easy peasy politics: How it all works - BBC Bitesize

Easy peasy politics for 11-14 year olds in Wales.

www.bbc.co.uk

But her defection isn’t enough to make a meaningful difference in a vote if all tories vote with the whip. Having slept on it it makes less sense than it did yesterday. If she’d gone and worked Tice’s company I’d have understood her quitting the Tories, she’s right up their street. No sign she’s had a road to Damascus conversion to the left. I’m not sure who she intended to do the most damage too by defecting. Sunak or Starmer.

 

[shmmeee]

I eagerly await to see all of those things in the manifesto. At the moment he flys by the wind so much nobody can be sure.

My mum is one that has always voted Labour her whole life but said she won’t vote for Starmer because he lacks principle. She’s not some old socialist either. I think it’s a big gamble to be sucking up the rightest of right wingers when you can just convince people of positive change.

Ah the mythical other option which is so easy yet when the left were in charge they just chose not to do for reasons.

Win an election then we’ll talk.

 

[shmmeee]

But her defection isn’t enough to make a meaningful difference in a vote if all tories vote with the whip. Having slept on it it makes less sense than it did yesterday. If she’d gone and worked Tice’s company I’d have understood her quitting the Tories, she’s right up their street. No sign she’s had a road to Damascus conversion to the left. I’m not sure who she intended to do the most damage too by defecting. Sunak or Starmer.

I’ll break out the crayons and primary colours.

The Tories are making immigration via small boats their tentpole issue.

This is the Tory MP for Dover

Dover is a place on the south coast that is often strongly linked with small boat migration.

Having the MP for the place emblematic of what you say if your big issue defect to the opposition looks bad.

The opposition looking bad depresses their vote and may even improve yours.

Getting more votes than the opposition means the MPs under your whip get elected.

The party that can command the most MPs gets to be the government.

The government gets to enact policy and spend tax money towards its aims and priorities.

 

[clint van damme]

It's absolutely crackers isn't it.

No one is going to have to put a X next to her name. Nobody is going to have to vote for a Labour Party containing Natalie Elphicke.


Everyone in here:

So why accept her then given her track record?
You OK with the way she behaved towards her husbands victims?

 

[skybluetony176]

In the meantime interest of balance a good news Labour story broke this morning but is probably being drowned out by the Elphicke story.

Labour has promised Unions that it will outlaw fire and hire. Along with the commitment to repeal the Tories minimum service level bill (yay for Brexit) some improvements in workers rights are on the way under a labour government. Within the first 100 days apparently.

 

[shmmeee]

More from Twitter. Just to prod the idea that the Tories are being super right wing, I know I’m a prick for effect on this topic. But seriously if you actually want to understand Labour post Brown until Starmer then watch the Tories right now. It’s an exact mirror. They will elect a headbanger. They will do badly in the polls until they elect someone more moderate. All this time the fringe of the party will complain that what they really need to do is try being properly right wing, not this compromise version they’re trying (no matter how right wing you, I, or the general public see them as)

 

[clint van damme]

More good news for the Tory Labour boys -

David Lammy tells US Republicans he can find ‘common cause’ with Trump

In Washington DC speech, shadow foreign secretary says Labour ‘will always work with US, whoever wins’

www.theguardian.com

Let's hope some sense can be talked into the unprincipled grifter, but I think Trump will have his work cut out

 

[fernandopartridge]

Agree with this. Political parties need to shift sufficiently to secure enough of a proportion of the vote to win the election. As you say, it’s basic politics.

Elphicke’s defection doesn’t reflect this though. All I’m thinking about when I see this and people like Zahawi stepping down at next election (no great shame) is that many politicians are just in it for themselves and lack any principles or willingness to fight for them

Your second paragraph shows how she will indeed fit right into Kier's Labour party

 

[skybluetony176]

I’ll break out the crayons and primary colours.

The Tories are making immigration via small boats their tentpole issue.

This is the Tory MP for Dover

Dover is a place on the south coast that is often strongly linked with small boat migration.

Having the MP for the place emblematic of what you say if your big issue defect to the opposition looks bad.

The opposition looking bad depresses their vote and may even improve yours.

Getting more votes than the opposition means the MPs under your whip get elected.

The party that can command the most MPs gets to be the government.

The government gets to enact policy and spend tax money towards its aims and priorities.

Okay, I’ll get the crayons out too. Sunak’s small boat/Rwanda policy isn’t cutting through except with the biggest frothers who were most likely going to vote for anyone but Labour anyway. The message you’re talking about is being lost anyway in the noise about Labour welcoming a far right nutter into the party with a history of victim blaming and trying to influence legal proceedings. It’s an own goal, a hollow victory, is more negative than positive. A mistake.

 

[shmmeee]

Every proponent of a political ideology requires total policy adherence before they’ll accept their idealised version doesn’t work. They’ll no true Scotsman any and every implementation that could be termed an example of their ideology. For anything in a mixed economy they will claim the good things are caused by adherence to their policy ideals and the bad things by deviation and what’s needed is purity.

If by chance they do get in a position to achieve this they will scare the bejeezus out of voters because they will require a significant change and each change creates winners and losers and makes people fear they’ll be losers. So the more change the more opposition at worst and uncertainty at best. Also as you approach one persons idea of purity, by definition you move further from those who were previously your close allies and arguments with them intensify.

This then leads to defeat, which is then blamed on external malign forces (the anti growth coalition, the neoliberal right wing press) to ensure we can maintain the belief in ideological purity.

This includes various flavours of centrism before anyone says something. It’s a human trait not one particular to an ideology.