Do you want to discuss boring politics? (39 Viewers)

[Ian1779]

I don’t disagree at all.

You’re making this argument whilst simultaneously holding the view that this VAT increase won’t force people out private education.

To put one child through private education you’re looking at £3k per year. Secondary school is between 5-7 years so that’s a commitment of £15-21k per child in VAT alone. Thats without factoring in price increases from the schools themselves. This is a lot more than the factors you just mentioned - probably combined without doing the maths.

To me, it seems like you’re contradicting yourself here.

The biggest benefit I can see from private schools is class sizes. That’s the crux of what you are paying for.

 

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[Ian1779]

Dianne Abbott can fuck off, she has lied about being barred.

She agreed to retire and now is trying force the party to make her the candidate.

Expel the twat.

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

Is that equality of opportunity or equality of outcome?

Would you rather lower standards of educational outcomes if it meant more equity than higher standards across the board at the cost of more inequality? The two go hand in hand unfortunately. This policy is regressive, not progressive.

You can only ever have equality of opportunity
Outcome is dependent on many other factors

 

[David O'Day]

The biggest benefit I can see from private schools is class sizes. That’s the crux of what you are paying for.

Also if the schools did more to justify their charitable VAT free status then maybe they wouldn't be losing it in just over 5 weeks time.

 

[Ian1779]

Also if the schools did more to justify their charitable VAT free status then maybe they wouldn't be losing it in just over 5 weeks time.

I’m not sure if it’s possible to give state schools the same VAT exemptions as private schools - maybe that would help to free up cash in state school budgets?

 

[David O'Day]

I’m not sure if it’s possible to give state schools the same VAT exemptions as private schools - maybe that would help to free up cash in state school budgets?

Or just make Private schools actually work for it

 

[nicksar]

RUGBY SCHOOL - Charity 528752

Charity details for RUGBY SCHOOL - Charity 528752

register-of-charities.charitycommission.gov.uk

Rugby school seem to have plenty of long term investments,I believe they own Elliotts Field shopping complex.

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

RUGBY SCHOOL - Charity 528752

Charity details for RUGBY SCHOOL - Charity 528752

register-of-charities.charitycommission.gov.uk

Rugby school seem to have plenty of long term investments,I believe they own Elliotts Field shopping complex.

Bless them how will they cope little cherubs

 

[Mucca Mad Boys]

I’m not sure if it’s possible to give state schools the same VAT exemptions as private schools - maybe that would help to free up cash in state school budgets?

State schools do have a similar status to charitable status but they don’t need to register with the Charity Commission. They register directly with the DoE.

Most educational materials are VAT exempt too.

Universities too, are ‘exempt charities’ so the next logical step would be to charge VAT on university tuition fees.

Judging by this thread, this policy is ‘red meat’ to the Labour base - tax private education irrespective of its impact on state schools. It’s social retribution rather than social justice.

Do State Schools Have Charitable Status? - Think Student

There are many different types of school systems in the UK. The main two categories are mainstream schools and independent schools (also known as private schools). The most common type of mainstream schools are grammar schools, free schools and community schools. All mainstream schools will ...

thinkstudent.co.uk

 

[David O'Day]

View attachment 35895

Aye skippy, they let her back in to retire with a bit of dignity even though she deserved to be fired for her vile racist and antisemetic bullshit.

Time to expel her for good.

 

[SBAndy]

Exactly....if you wanna pay for what you believe or perceive to be an upgrade on what the state already provide for free, then thats fine and dandy with me...crack on.....just pay the VAT that is rightfully due.

On the flip side, is private healthcare VATable? I’m assuming not. Would the expectation be that this is also implemented?

 

[David O'Day]

State schools do have a similar status to charitable status but they don’t need to register with the Charity Commission. They register directly with the DoE.

Most educational materials are VAT exempt too.

Universities too, are ‘exempt charities’ so the next logical step would be to charge VAT on university tuition fees.

Judging by this thread, this policy is ‘red meat’ to the Labour base - tax private education irrespective of its impact on state schools. It’s social retribution rather than social justice.

Do State Schools Have Charitable Status? - Think Student

There are many different types of school systems in the UK. The main two categories are mainstream schools and independent schools (also known as private schools). The most common type of mainstream schools are grammar schools, free schools and community schools. All mainstream schools will ...

thinkstudent.co.uk

And? We are talking about the fees they charge people. it's the text example of what is "value added".

University fees are basically you paying the government unless you to one of the very few private universities in the UK.

No, we shouldn't add VAT to uni fees, we should scrap them all together and properly fund our universities.

 

[shmmeee]

This is why I think Labour framing taxing x to pay for y (as if government spending really works anything like that) is self defeating.

It’s the game you’ve got to play at election time. Note only Labour get asked “how will you pay for this???” Never Tories.

 

[HuckerbyDublinWhelan]

Need to remove business rates from NHS hospitals aswell. It’s criminal they have to pay them and private hospitals don’t as they’re “charities”

 

[shmmeee]

On the flip side, is private healthcare VATable? I’m assuming not. Would the expectation be that this is also implemented?

Insurance no, no insurance is. Other stuff yes.

 

[Mucca Mad Boys]

And? We are talking about the fees they charge people. it's the text example of what is "value added".

University fees are basically you paying the government unless you to one of the very few private universities in the UK.

No, we shouldn't add VAT to uni fees, we should scrap them all together and properly fund our universities.

No you’re not paying the government at all…

You take a loan from SFE which is privatised and the government is the guarantor of the loan. Individuals pay the unis which are essentially private entities which is why universities rely on wealthy international students to increase their tuition they charge.

In its function, universities are charities on the same basis as private schools. Which is why I made that point.

Free uni education In Scotland sounds well and good but the places are limited and the outcome has disproportionally closed off free uni tuition to working class Scots.

In practice, you could not sustain government funded university tuition for ~50% of school leavers.

 

[Ian1779]

Judging by this thread, this policy is ‘red meat’ to the Labour base - tax private education irrespective of its impact on state schools. It’s social retribution rather than social justice.

Do State Schools Have Charitable Status? - Think Student

There are many different types of school systems in the UK. The main two categories are mainstream schools and independent schools (also known as private schools). The most common type of mainstream schools are grammar schools, free schools and community schools. All mainstream schools will ...

thinkstudent.co.uk

Sorry but that’s not true - give state schools kids access to the same resources, same funding proportionally and the same class sizes and then we’ll really see the difference in the outcomes.

 

[fernandopartridge]

My purchasing power was reduced. Inflation and wages are two independent issues. It’s a sleight of hand of term to frame things as cuts that aren’t.

Back on track, the private sector doesn’t increase its spending in line with inflation because it’s not always necessary to do. Successful private enterprises are always looking at reducing their costs and driving efficiencies. Whereas, the public sector doesn’t have that same impetus. For example, where’s the accountability for how NHS spends its money?

I hate using this example but it’s symbolic, last year the NHS trusts were hiring for Directors of ‘lived experience’ on 5-figure salaries. The Telegraph found that nearly half of the NHS’ employees are managers, administrators or unqualified assistants.
The same administrators silencing medical professional whistleblowers and so on.

I’m not an expert, but if operating costs (i.e. staff wages) is one of the biggest % of the NHS budget, it seems like there could be a lot of efficiency improvements there.

The bottom line here is that the NHS is unaccountable for how it spends its budget.

What do you think the NHS is spending its budget on?

 

[Mucca Mad Boys]

Sorry but that’s not true - give state schools kids access to the same resources, same funding proportionally and the same class sizes and then we’ll really see the difference in the outcomes.

How do you do that without massively increasing government expenditure?

On this thread, we’ve got to better fund; the NHS, state schools, universities, pensions and housing.

We have the highest tax burden since WW2, stagnating wages, a budget deficit, an aging population and on top of that, record migration levels. How is this being paid for?

 

[Mucca Mad Boys]

What do you think the NHS is spending its budget on?

Its main expenditure is on staffing, 40% of its entire budget…

The NHS is the biggest employer not just in the UK, but the whole of Europe.

 

[jimmyhillsfanclub]

Need to remove business rates from NHS hospitals aswell. It’s criminal they have to pay them and private hospitals don’t as they’re “charities”

Is that true? Really? Fucking hell!

EDIT: He's right. It's true.

love this place....always learning

 

[shmmeee]

What’s the logic in charging one arm of the govt rates to another?

Some real man in suit with a PowerPoint thinking there.

 

[shmmeee]

Its main expenditure is on staffing, 40% of its entire budget…

The NHS is the biggest employer not just in the UK, but the whole of Europe.

40% staffing costs is pretty middle of the road. Less than software or teaching for example. Schools I think spend 80%.

It’s only the biggest employer because it’s a single org. Other healthcare systems are split into multiple orgs.

 

[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

Successful private enterprises are always looking at reducing their costs and driving efficiencies. Whereas, the public sector doesn’t have that same impetus. For example, where’s the accountability for how NHS spends its money?

Well that's bollocks.

Why wouldn't pubic sector have impetus to cut costs and drive efficiencies? They do that and the money they spend goes further. Thus they can either reduce taxes and be popular or have money to spend on improving other services and be more popular.

Why, for example, should someone working minumum wage for a private company care whether they're driving efficiencies? The main beneficiary of them doing so would be shareholders, so why should they give a fuck?

The desire for efficiency comes from self-interest at the top and both public and private have that.

As for the NHS, there are loads of budgetary responsiblity committees, plus journalists and citizens can do FoI requests to look at it themselves. Where's that level of accountability in the private sector. And FYI the NHS is seen as efficient given the sheer scale and scope of its operations. While it's a good soundbite to hear about reducing bureaucracy and admin to spend on docs and nurses, those admin people are a cog that keep it running smoothly, unless you'd prefer having docs and nurses spending their time booking theatres and arranging appointments?

 

[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

We’ve had the pandemic as a nice Petri dish. Europe went austerity. US went spending. We can see what happened (US recovered far better including inflation) and yet people still argue about it. 2008, Covid, the war. This happens again and again but people won’t accept it because they’ve got deeply held beliefs about how the economy “should” run.

Going back to the Great Depression it's been shown that during recessions it's spending that makes the biggest difference.

The building of 30Rock in NY made a significant difference locally by providing jobs and the knock-on effect that had,

 

[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

A lot of people pay for these school fees by taking out loans and remortgages. Also of course the fees are going up every year in line with cost of living - many can’t afford it. They borrow

Well if you're taking out loans and mortgages for private school you clearly can't afford to do it.

 

[shmmeee]

My purchasing power was reduced. Inflation and wages are two independent issues. It’s a sleight of hand of term to frame things as cuts that aren’t.

Back on track, the private sector doesn’t increase its spending in line with inflation because it’s not always necessary to do. Successful private enterprises are always looking at reducing their costs and driving efficiencies. Whereas, the public sector doesn’t have that same impetus. For example, where’s the accountability for how NHS spends its money?

I hate using this example but it’s symbolic, last year the NHS trusts were hiring for Directors of ‘lived experience’ on 5-figure salaries. The Telegraph found that nearly half of the NHS’ employees are managers, administrators or unqualified assistants.
The same administrators silencing medical professional whistleblowers and so on.

I’m not an expert, but if operating costs (i.e. staff wages) is one of the biggest % of the NHS budget, it seems like there could be a lot of efficiency improvements there.

The bottom line here is that the NHS is unaccountable for how it spends its budget.

You ain’t kidding you’re not an expert. A Director of Lived Experience is a patient voice director. It’s not a woke thing.

You’ve clearly never been near a public sector role if you think there’s no drive for efficiency. Private sector is considerably more wasteful. I’ve never had to buy my own equipment out of pocket in private industry for a start. I’ve had expense accounts bigger than my departmental budget when I was HoD in a school. I worked considerably more free overtime in public sector, even compared to a startup.

 

[fernandopartridge]

Its main expenditure is on staffing, 40% of its entire budget…

The NHS is the biggest employer not just in the UK, but the whole of Europe.

Given healthcare services are provided by people that's hardly a revelation. At individual trust level the % will be even higher, >60%.

That statistic is false in reality, there is no single NHS employer. There are circa 200 trusts, 23 integrated care boards and NHS England.

 

[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

We have not had growth since 2008

Well that kind of proves my point.

Indeed, the UK economy as a whole is smaller than in 2008. Yet according to the year on year statistics 13 of those years are growth years. Misleading, no?

You need more indicators to get a fuller picture.

 

[shmmeee]

Well that kind of proves my point.

Indeed, the UK economy as a whole is smaller than in 2008. Yet according to the year on year statistics 13 of those years are growth years. Misleading, no?

You need more indicators to get a fuller picture.

Maybe. But fundamentally you drive wage improvements through productivity improvements.

Which is why the left wing hatred of automation has always blown my mind. If we can’t allow companies to earn the same with fewer staff how do you expect wages to rise?

 

[fernandopartridge]

My purchasing power was reduced. Inflation and wages are two independent issues. It’s a sleight of hand of term to frame things as cuts that aren’t.

Back on track, the private sector doesn’t increase its spending in line with inflation because it’s not always necessary to do. Successful private enterprises are always looking at reducing their costs and driving efficiencies. Whereas, the public sector doesn’t have that same impetus. For example, where’s the accountability for how NHS spends its money?

I hate using this example but it’s symbolic, last year the NHS trusts were hiring for Directors of ‘lived experience’ on 5-figure salaries. The Telegraph found that nearly half of the NHS’ employees are managers, administrators or unqualified assistants.
The same administrators silencing medical professional whistleblowers and so on.

I’m not an expert, but if operating costs (i.e. staff wages) is one of the biggest % of the NHS budget, it seems like there could be a lot of efficiency improvements there.

The bottom line here is that the NHS is unaccountable for how it spends its budget.

You really must do some actual research. Citing the Telegraph FFS. I presume that the Telegraph is advocating replacing the assistants with fully qualified nurses at greater cost, and having the clinical staff send appointment letters out rather than provide healthcare. Oh and the management can be done by doctors instead of wasting time with patients.

 

[shmmeee]

You really must do some actual research. Citing the Telegraph FFS. I presume that the Telegraph is advocating replacing the assistants with fully qualified nurses at greater cost, and having the clinical staff send appointment letters out rather than provide healthcare. Oh and the management can be done by doctors instead of wasting time with patients.

As if the Telegraph is suggesting a solution come on! The paper is basically a far right lobby newsletter at the moment. Their stuff on EVs is absolutely insane. They just want to kick any public institution.

 

[Mucca Mad Boys]

40% staffing costs is pretty middle of the road. Less than software or teaching for example. Schools I think spend 80%.

It’s only the biggest employer because it’s a single org. Other healthcare systems are split into multiple orgs.

Yes, and about half of people employed by the NHS are managers, administrators and non-medical professionals. To me, a 50:50 split of medical and non-medical seems disproportionate. Yes, you obviously need a bureaucracy to keep things ticking over but not 50:50.

 

[Mucca Mad Boys]

You really must do some actual research. Citing the Telegraph FFS. I presume that the Telegraph is advocating replacing the assistants with fully qualified nurses at greater cost, and having the clinical staff send appointment letters out rather than provide healthcare. Oh and the management can be done by doctors instead of wasting time with patients.

How ignorant. I wouldn’t dismiss something out hand because The Guardian said something I disagreed with. Prove it wrong.

Both parties agree that the current system is unsustainable so by all means, pretend that all is well. We’ve got a few parliaments to ‘fix’ the NHS before there’s a serious conversation about its future.

 

[fernandopartridge]

How ignorant. I wouldn’t dismiss something out hand because The Guardian said something I disagreed with. Prove it wrong.

Both parties agree that the current system is unsustainable so by all means, pretend that all is well. We’ve got a few parliaments to ‘fix’ the NHS before there’s a serious conversation about its future.

Why don't you download the annual report from eg UHCW, that'll give you a proper source of information not a lunatic right wing rag that's entire schtick is winding up pensioners (and idiots).