Do you want to discuss boring politics? (52 Viewers)

[jimmyhillsfanclub]

Its way overdue that we tax the fuck out of aviation fuel.

Been saying it for years but Its fucking obscene that I can fly to Spain for less money than a train ticket to Leeds

 

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[shmmeee]

Its way overdue that we tax the fuck out of aviation fuel.

Been saying it for years but Its fucking obscene that I can fly to Spain for less money than a train ticket to Leeds

Carbon tax would surely work for this. Perhaps with a modifier for altitude as I understand that’s what makes aviation particularly nasty.

 

[Ian1779]

Where does the incoming government believe the growth is going to magically appear from? Is there any immediate stimulus or is it just more wishful thinking?

UK GDP stagnated in wet April; Wall Street hits record high as US inflation falls – as it happened

UK GDP failed to grow in April, as wet weather hit retailers and construction firms

www.theguardian.com

Vibes

 

[wingy]

Carbon tax would surely work for this. Perhaps with a modifier for altitude as I understand that’s what makes aviation particularly nasty.

65 pence per litre currently?

 

[shmmeee]

Where does the incoming government believe the growth is going to magically appear from? Is there any immediate stimulus or is it just more wishful thinking?

UK GDP stagnated in wet April; Wall Street hits record high as US inflation falls – as it happened

UK GDP failed to grow in April, as wet weather hit retailers and construction firms

www.theguardian.com

Planning reform and closer ties with Europe it seems.

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

Planning reform and closer ties with Europe it seems.

Rejoining eu trading area would bring immediate economic gain probably up to about 5% on gdp

 

[shmmeee]

Rejoining eu trading area would bring immediate economic gain probably up to about 5% on gdp

Like a Norway type deal?

As long as we took the French approach to some of the ridiculous tech legislation they’re bringing in I’d be OK with that.

I think it’ll be more piecemeal with deals for certain professions like vets and musicians that have had particular trouble.

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

Like a Norway type deal?

As long as we took the French approach to some of the ridiculous tech legislation they’re bringing in I’d be OK with that.

I think it’ll be more piecemeal with deals for certain professions like vets and musicians that have had particular trouble.

Yeah

 

[shmmeee]

Stunningly stupid manifesto from the Greens. They want to ban nuclear power.

Not a serious environmentalist movement.

 

[Skybluekyle]

Stunningly stupid manifesto from the Greens. They want to ban nuclear power.

Not a serious environmentalist movement.

Couple of really good policies, but nuclear has to be an important transitional power source away from fossil fuels.

 

[shmmeee]

Couple of really good policies, but nuclear has to be an important transitional power source away from fossil fuels.

They always have, they just also have some monumentally stupid ones too. The problem with the membership writing the manifesto really.

 

[skybluetony176]

The nuclear solution is overstated. Look at Hinckley Point C. Over budget and overdue. Final bill is expected to be over 4 times the original estimate. The idea was first conceived in 2010, was supposed to be completed by 2020 and now it doesn’t look like it will be finished by 2030. Then there’s the issue that nuclear is no longer cheap power, in fact I think I’m right in saying it’s the most expensive to generate. And even the energy security/not depending on outside factors like what will Russia, China etc will do next argument doesn’t stack up well because it’s only being built because China is involved. The nuclear solution is looking more and more overstated as time passes by. Final cost of Hinckley C is estimated to be about £50B. Had we invested that in renewables over the same 20 year period we’d already have seen the benefits of it including cheaper energy bills.

The Green plan to eliminate nuclear power might actually be a lot more forward thinking than people are giving them credit for.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Stunningly stupid manifesto from the Greens. They want to ban nuclear power.

Not a serious environmentalist movement.

Agreed, it’s a massive issue I have with them and indeed whenever I go into more left wing circles I get very funny looks arguing for nuclear.

No, it wasn’t my stained chinos causing the funny looks.

 

[skybluetony176]

I see there’s been an arrest in the PPE Medpro case. Curiously a 46 year old man so that rules out Michelle Moans Husband. The plot thickens.

 

[Skybluekyle]

The nuclear solution is overstated. Look at Hinckley Point C. Over budget and overdue. Final bill is expected to be over 4 times the original estimate. The idea was first conceived in 2010, was supposed to be completed by 2020 and now it doesn’t look like it will be finished by 2030. Then there’s the issue that nuclear is no longer cheap power, in fact I think I’m right in saying it’s the most expensive to generate. And even the energy security/not depending on outside factors like what will Russia, China etc will do next argument doesn’t stack up well because it’s only being built because China is involved. The nuclear solution is looking more and more overstated as time passes by. Final cost of Hinckley C is estimated to be about £50B. Had we invested that in renewables over the same 20 year period we’d already have seen the benefits of it including cheaper energy bills.

The Green plan to eliminate nuclear power might actually be a lot more forward thinking than people are giving them credit for.

I do not disagree outright, but I think it's near-sighted to disinvest in nuclear at this stage, but looking at how we're to construct and use it, is important.

If we're serious about net-zero, nuclear has to be in the picture, not ruled out. It's not just about the cost-effectiveness of energy, and its security, but also diversification in as clean and efficient way as possible. Nuclear has to be on the table, at least in the short/medium term.

 

[Sick Boy]

Like a Norway type deal?

As long as we took the French approach to some of the ridiculous tech legislation they’re bringing in I’d be OK with that.

I think it’ll be more piecemeal with deals for certain professions like vets and musicians that have had particular trouble.

It should always have been an EEA/Norway-type deal as a compromise between the two.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

The nuclear solution is overstated. Look at Hinckley Point C. Over budget and overdue. Final bill is expected to be over 4 times the original estimate. The idea was first conceived in 2010, was supposed to be completed by 2020 and now it doesn’t look like it will be finished by 2030. Then there’s the issue that nuclear is no longer cheap power, in fact I think I’m right in saying it’s the most expensive to generate. And even the energy security/not depending on outside factors like what will Russia, China etc will do next argument doesn’t stack up well because it’s only being built because China is involved. The nuclear solution is looking more and more overstated as time passes by. Final cost of Hinckley C is estimated to be about £50B. Had we invested that in renewables over the same 20 year period we’d already have seen the benefits of it including cheaper energy bills.

The Green plan to eliminate nuclear power might actually be a lot more forward thinking than people are giving them credit for.

What I would be much more interested in seeing is Europe and Africa combining resources and technology to turn the Sahara Desert into a solar power resource for both continents combined. More than enough sunlight hits that region to meet the combined energy demand.

Would also get Africa away from fossil fuels in the process.

 

[Skybluekyle]

What I would be much more interested in seeing is Europe and Africa combining resources and technology to turn the Sahara Desert into a solar power resource for both continents combined. More than enough sunlight hits that region to meet the combined energy demand.

Would also get Africa away from fossil fuels in the process.

Would the sun not completely destroy the panels? Can imagine them getting mighty toasty

 

[clint van damme]

The nuclear solution is overstated. Look at Hinckley Point C. Over budget and overdue. Final bill is expected to be over 4 times the original estimate. The idea was first conceived in 2010, was supposed to be completed by 2020 and now it doesn’t look like it will be finished by 2030. Then there’s the issue that nuclear is no longer cheap power, in fact I think I’m right in saying it’s the most expensive to generate. And even the energy security/not depending on outside factors like what will Russia, China etc will do next argument doesn’t stack up well because it’s only being built because China is involved. The nuclear solution is looking more and more overstated as time passes by. Final cost of Hinckley C is estimated to be about £50B. Had we invested that in renewables over the same 20 year period we’d already have seen the benefits of it including cheaper energy bills.

The Green plan to eliminate nuclear power might actually be a lot more forward thinking than people are giving them credit for.

To be fair something coming in late and over budget is par for the course in this country and points more to how useless we are than how ineffective the thing that came in late and over budget is.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Would the sun not completely destroy the panels? Can imagine them getting mighty toasty

You’d build solar beacons rather than try to cover the area with panels. Work in the same way and easier to protect in what is not a particularly secure part of the world.

 

[shmmeee]

The nuclear solution is overstated. Look at Hinckley Point C. Over budget and overdue. Final bill is expected to be over 4 times the original estimate. The idea was first conceived in 2010, was supposed to be completed by 2020 and now it doesn’t look like it will be finished by 2030. Then there’s the issue that nuclear is no longer cheap power, in fact I think I’m right in saying it’s the most expensive to generate. And even the energy security/not depending on outside factors like what will Russia, China etc will do next argument doesn’t stack up well because it’s only being built because China is involved. The nuclear solution is looking more and more overstated as time passes by. Final cost of Hinckley C is estimated to be about £50B. Had we invested that in renewables over the same 20 year period we’d already have seen the benefits of it including cheaper energy bills.

The Green plan to eliminate nuclear power might actually be a lot more forward thinking than people are giving them credit for.

No it’s the usual reactionary nonsense. Same as being anti-GMO

 

[clint van damme]

Would the sun not completely destroy the panels? Can imagine them getting mighty toasty

Apparently the technology to do this already exists. Just needs someone to crack on with it.

 

[shmmeee]

To be fair something coming in late and over budget is par for the course in this country and points more to how useless we are than how ineffective the thing that came in late and over budget is.

Six times more than the same reactors in South Korea. All down to regulatory cost basically.

 

[clint van damme]

You’d build solar beacons rather than try to cover the area with panels. Work in the same way and easier to protect in what is not a particularly secure part of the world.

Isn't there also something about large amounts of water needed for cooling purposes which could be run off to irrigate a substantial amount of surrounding land?

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Isn't there also something about large amounts of water needed for cooling purposes which could be run off to irrigate a substantial amount of surrounding land?

Not read anything along those lines. Regardless the long term energy security for Europe and Africa lies in the desert in my view, but it would require investment and collaboration on a scale that will never happen with the Western governments that keep getting elected.

 

[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

They always have, they just also have some monumentally stupid ones too. The problem with the membership writing the manifesto really.

I agree. The Green policies I like, I really like. But the ones I don't I really don't.

However, I've said before I don't think nuclear is a feasible long term alternative. Plus there is the cost, the time it will take to bring it online and the long term environmental aspects of storage and disposal of fuel. There are potential issues with who will build it as well and the security around that.

Given all that with the same money and timeframe you MIGHT be able to reach the same point using other, better, renewables

 

[skybluetony176]

What I would be much more interested in seeing is Europe and Africa combining resources and technology to turn the Sahara Desert into a solar power resource for both continents combined. More than enough sunlight hits that region to meet the combined energy demand.

Would also get Africa away from fossil fuels in the process.

I think there’s big plans in Morocco to do just that. It’s uniquely placed for wind too with a long Atlantic coastline and a dependable amount of wind. Longer term plans apparently include battery ships that will charge in Morocco sail to another country and then discharge into said countries grid.

 

[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

It's amazing no one else has thought about funding local services, i.e. Libraries etc, by actually taxing richer people more.

I know this might sound a bit mad, but I think we may well be at a point whereby things like tax bands and to an extent tax rates should be sorted from the data/stats, rather than being used as much as a political football.

One of the main points of tax is to redistribute wealth by taking from those with a lot to provide services for those at the bottom who can't afford them.

So if you have the info on income levels, you could look at, say, the 50th percentile and the top 10% and work out the difference and however many times more the earnings are at the 90th percentile is some sort of multiplier for the upper tax rate, and also sets the income level at which it is paid. If society is fairer then that upper rate will automatically be low. If we have a huge discrepancy it will be large. It automatically reflects the society we're living in.

Tax free personal allowance should be set at the amount people need to pay rent/mortgage, bills and food. Then you can see what percentile that relates to and maybe work out a basic rate from that as well. Plus should you choose you can add in further tax bands based on percentiles, for example a super rich tax on the top 1% compared to what they have over the top 10%.

I know this doesn't cover the big issue of accumulated wealth (I think something along the lines of treating inheritance as income rather than a separate IHT could be a possibility), but would need access to all the data (and a lot of free time!) to turn it into a detailed, potentially workable solution.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

I think there’s big plans in Morocco to do just that. It’s uniquely placed for wind too with a long Atlantic coastline and a dependable amount of wind. Longer term plans apparently include battery ships that will charge in Morocco sail to another country and then discharge into said countries grid.

Yes, Morocco have done a fair amount of work on it already. If we were being smart we’d collaborate with them.

 

[clint van damme]

Yes, Morocco have done a fair amount of work on it already. If we were being smart we’d collaborate with them.

And if they're smart they'd tell us to fuck off!

 

[shmmeee]

What I would be much more interested in seeing is Europe and Africa combining resources and technology to turn the Sahara Desert into a solar power resource for both continents combined. More than enough sunlight hits that region to meet the combined energy demand.

Would also get Africa away from fossil fuels in the process.

This is a really interesting look at that idea:



Tl;dr: it’s been mooted for over a decade and not happened because once you factor in the additional costs of transmitting and storing energy and the risk of investing in these nations you may as well stick solar panels on your own roof.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

This is a really interesting look at that idea:



Tl;dr: it’s been mooted for over a decade and not happened because once you factor in the additional costs of transmitting and storing energy and the risk of investing in these nations you may as well stick solar panels on your own roof.

Which is also my point, it’s an optimistic pipe dream but it would solve the energy problem for two continents at once. Something as an intermediate measure is needed.

 

[skybluetony176]

Interesting interview with Andrew Marr

 

[skybluetony176]

No it’s the usual reactionary nonsense. Same as being anti-GMO

Hardly. Hinckley is overdue and over budget, that’s just fact and not a little bit either. EDF, the other partner in it is apparently taking a £10B hit and has pretty much said it isn’t getting involved in another project which brings you onto another issue I didn’t mention before but how likely is it that we can get someone to build it in the first place. That on its own may make Nuclear expansion untenable in the UK.

 

[David O'Day]

Fuck me, if they are losing the Daily Mail readers then they truly are fucked