The 'Monarchy Question'? (5 Viewers)

WillieStanley

New Member
Well, for one, I'm basing it on the work that I do professionally, where as a service provider for the homeless, we not only provide accommodation, we provide opportunities for change. Locally and nationally I'm also basing it on the services offered by The Recovery Partnership, Potential 4 Skills and The National Careers Service amongst The Salvation Army and many many others.

I'm also basing it on the theories of Maslow, Zindberg amongst others and the historical core values of The Labour Party.

Your mate who works for Whitefriars is seeing the tip of the iceberg, the symptom and not the problem. Whitefriars do a great job of providing social housing, but addressing social issues... they don't come close and are as good as an estate agency who cater for those on benefits. Infact, due to their dubious rent policy, they have actually been known to cause homelessness due to the way they treat their vulnerable tennents.

In regards to the ones who come from different countries... it's hard enough for people born and bred in this country to find work at the moment, let alone those who haven't been given the opportunity to learn the native tongue or have no experience or qualifications valid in this country on top of the predudice incited by The Sun and Daily Mail.
 

Brighton Sky Blue

Well-Known Member
I'd like to see what WillieStanley is basing his argument on. As a friend of mine works for the council repairing there houses etc. It drives him mad. So many people on benefits are milking the system for no real reason other them lazyness.. He also finds it alarming how so many of them come from a different country and have never worked.

Little difference between them and the Windsors then. Imagine a job with 'hosting banquets on a daily basis' as part of the job description.
 

Brighton Sky Blue

Well-Known Member
The NHS is now totally different to the concept when created. It is a collosal drain on resources and needs to be re-addressed.

It should exist for those who cannot afford alteratives. Those who can should be encouraged through tax breaks to take Private Health Cover and the NHS should not indulge in cosmetic and other non-essential work.

The State is too cumbersome and is not working.

I'm sorry that you consider people's health a drain on resources.
 

Brighton Sky Blue

Well-Known Member
That's what schools are for aren't they? building the necessary skills for these people to succeed in life, whether that is giving them a good basis to go onto higher education (college/uni's) or entry level jobs as soon as they leave school.

Maybe if people had to fend for themselves, I'm sure their attitudes would quickly change.

That attitude has created the global mess the world finds itself in.
 

Grendel

Well-Known Member
Republicanism is a cause I feel extremely strongly about and is something I have got up and protested for in the past. Many of those in favour of monarchy will readily tell you that 'If we had a choice, monarchy probably wouldn't be the system we'd go for'-so that being the case, why should we keep (and fund) it? Some here have criticised those who sponge off welfare and government money because they can't be bothered to do a day's 'proper work'. I ask you, what have the infalliable Royals *done* for this country which merits adoration from all parts of the media and Old Etonians in the House?

You will be told that hosting banquets, cutting ribbons, and greeting foreign guests is all part of a hard day's labour for HM. Since when did eating a very large meal qualify as a hard day's graft (John Clarke aside)? It does not. A good number of Royals have taken part in some kind of military service over the years-good on them, but what gives them any more right to praise than all the others putting their lives on the line all over the globe? A life full of luxury and privileges for having the surname Windsor-yes, Britain really can call itself a true modern democracy. Like it or not, the system we have now *is* an unchallenged dictatorship-the total opposite to what a democracy ought to be.

Heck, HM had to be coerced into paying tax in the early '90s-any other family that tried to avoid it for so long would've been chucked into prison a long time ago. Even now, this tax rate is of the Queen's choosing (what a system eh), and cannot be disclosed owing to their exemption from the FOI act (funny, that doesn't seem to apply to anything else costing substantial public money). The Royals are also allowed the right to refuse any Parliamentary bill if it interferes with their personal interests-they have yet to actually do this, but for such a right to exist on the accident of birth cannot surely be taken as fair in anyone's mind.

So, why do we keep them? You'll often hear 'But they bring in tourism', 'But they're a part of our history', 'But we'd need to rewrite the constitution', as common arguments. Well-where do you think Buckingham Palace features in the 'most visited' UK attractions? Below the likes of Alton Towers and Thorpe Park is where it is-and this is a building which the taxpayer funds to maintain. Imagine if the Palace were free for all to explore all year round-without a monarchy, it's likely that tourism would actually increase. The likes of Germany and France don't seem to struggle in this area, I might add. So, the 'history' argument-if everything that is 'historic' is good, then shall we reintroduce rationing, slavery, and feudalism? The monarchy is a total anachronism in this day and age and has no place in a country that wants to consider itself progressive.

What of the alternative? 'President Blair' would only be so if he were the person chosen by the electorate-and he was 3 times on the spin. Yes, the voters may not always make the 'right' decision-but that is why elected heads of state are accountable; if a leader performs poorly, they do not get back in. If the monarch has a total free ride for 60 years, the voter is powerless to do anything about it-because the constitution is written to give unwavering privilege to the Windsor line. The Crown Estates and duchies would be returned to the government (as the latter were appropriated from peasants in the first place), giving yet more strength to the public purse-or do we all actually want £200 million a year to go to the Windsors for no justifiable reason, over things like our beleagured NHS? Now more than ever, it is so wrong for these people to be bathing in luxury off the back of their surname whilst the majority struggle seriously hard to pay the bills-but even if they were not, it makes the system no less out of place.

The current system insinuates that 60 million people in the UK are unfit to choose, let alone become, the leader of their own country. By birth, you are guaranteed to be no better than some descendent of Victoria because a piece of paper says so. A man with no understanding of environmental science is given all the scientific clout he pleases because mummy is the Queen. The people of this country deserve so much better than to have this farce of a system imposed upon them-inherited privilege sparks scorn when it comes to snooty peers in the House of Lords, so why is HM any different? She is not-and her and the rest of her family have enjoyed so much at our expense 'because they're British'. The UK will never move forward until these tax avoiding parasites are removed from their position and an accountable, efficient, and elected leader is put in their place-for 5 years, rather than however long they feel like it.

/rant.

I agree with you on the tourism bit -- always find that funny -- could give Prince Edward the job of selling tickets and Andrew doing the guided tours. Give the something to do.

Truth is though many of the Presidential systems are also deeply flawed and ultimately the choice the electorate will face are people from similar ideologies who offer little choice. Actually what you would probably get is a moderately left wing President and the public would balance this with a moderately right wing House of Commons resulting in a paralysis of decision making.

If you are worried about democracy the true democratic thing to do is let the people decide what constitution they want.
 

Brighton Sky Blue

Well-Known Member
I don't love the monarchy and in my youth would have been fiercly opposed to it.

However, the reality is that a Presidential option is not an attractive alternative. When you look at the Presidential situation in Europe and in the US it shows the pitfalls of having an elected head of state who in essence has to be politically motivated. The cost is significant (look at the US election campaign) and often the political situation becomes paralysed as you find the lower house at odds with the upper house.

The real problem this Royal Family is the extended family which also benefits from the purse.

A significantly scaled down Scandanvian type model would be more attractive.

Interesting break-down is that the Royals cost £200 million/year in public money. The US presidential elections cost in the region of $1 billion-though that money is usually privately sourced I believe.

Simple maths therefore puts 5 years of monarchy at the same price of the biggest election in the world once every 5 years.
 

Nick

Administrator
The thing about the jubilee and people turning out to see the royal family are probably the same people who were out at 6 am watching the olympic torch! It wasnt that it was the royal family it was that they didnt want to miss it! They would do the same if it was the pope or ken barlow!
 

Mucca Mad Boys

Well-Known Member
Republicanism is a cause I feel extremely strongly about and is something I have got up and protested for in the past. Many of those in favour of monarchy will readily tell you that 'If we had a choice, monarchy probably wouldn't be the system we'd go for'-so that being the case, why should we keep (and fund) it? Some here have criticised those who sponge off welfare and government money because they can't be bothered to do a day's 'proper work'. I ask you, what have the infalliable Royals *done* for this country which merits adoration from all parts of the media and Old Etonians in the House?

You will be told that hosting banquets, cutting ribbons, and greeting foreign guests is all part of a hard day's labour for HM. Since when did eating a very large meal qualify as a hard day's graft (John Clarke aside)? It does not. A good number of Royals have taken part in some kind of military service over the years-good on them, but what gives them any more right to praise than all the others putting their lives on the line all over the globe? A life full of luxury and privileges for having the surname Windsor-yes, Britain really can call itself a true modern democracy. Like it or not, the system we have now *is* an unchallenged dictatorship-the total opposite to what a democracy ought to be.

Heck, HM had to be coerced into paying tax in the early '90s-any other family that tried to avoid it for so long would've been chucked into prison a long time ago. Even now, this tax rate is of the Queen's choosing (what a system eh), and cannot be disclosed owing to their exemption from the FOI act (funny, that doesn't seem to apply to anything else costing substantial public money). The Royals are also allowed the right to refuse any Parliamentary bill if it interferes with their personal interests-they have yet to actually do this, but for such a right to exist on the accident of birth cannot surely be taken as fair in anyone's mind.

So, why do we keep them? You'll often hear 'But they bring in tourism', 'But they're a part of our history', 'But we'd need to rewrite the constitution', as common arguments. Well-where do you think Buckingham Palace features in the 'most visited' UK attractions? Below the likes of Alton Towers and Thorpe Park is where it is-and this is a building which the taxpayer funds to maintain. Imagine if the Palace were free for all to explore all year round-without a monarchy, it's likely that tourism would actually increase. The likes of Germany and France don't seem to struggle in this area, I might add. So, the 'history' argument-if everything that is 'historic' is good, then shall we reintroduce rationing, slavery, and feudalism? The monarchy is a total anachronism in this day and age and has no place in a country that wants to consider itself progressive.

What of the alternative? 'President Blair' would only be so if he were the person chosen by the electorate-and he was 3 times on the spin. Yes, the voters may not always make the 'right' decision-but that is why elected heads of state are accountable; if a leader performs poorly, they do not get back in. If the monarch has a total free ride for 60 years, the voter is powerless to do anything about it-because the constitution is written to give unwavering privilege to the Windsor line. The Crown Estates and duchies would be returned to the government (as the latter were appropriated from peasants in the first place), giving yet more strength to the public purse-or do we all actually want £200 million a year to go to the Windsors for no justifiable reason, over things like our beleagured NHS? Now more than ever, it is so wrong for these people to be bathing in luxury off the back of their surname whilst the majority struggle seriously hard to pay the bills-but even if they were not, it makes the system no less out of place.

The current system insinuates that 60 million people in the UK are unfit to choose, let alone become, the leader of their own country. By birth, you are guaranteed to be no better than some descendent of Victoria because a piece of paper says so. A man with no understanding of environmental science is given all the scientific clout he pleases because mummy is the Queen. The people of this country deserve so much better than to have this farce of a system imposed upon them-inherited privilege sparks scorn when it comes to snooty peers in the House of Lords, so why is HM any different? She is not-and her and the rest of her family have enjoyed so much at our expense 'because they're British'. The UK will never move forward until these tax avoiding parasites are removed from their position and an accountable, efficient, and elected leader is put in their place-for 5 years, rather than however long they feel like it.

/rant.

Honestly, YOU NAILED IT! I couldn't have put it better, you not only did you say every argument I had in mind, you added to it. I just wish the masses would understand.
 

Tad

Member
Little difference between them and the Windsors then. Imagine a job with 'hosting banquets on a daily basis' as part of the job description.

I agree. However, I personally think the bigger issue lies in politics itself. So many pointless over the top laws and rules that are so detailed people are finding loopholes or ways around it. Bankers, politicians, the rich; there all at it. If everything was made black and white with less legal "talk" things would run much smoother and easier in the uk. It would also make the people of the uk a lot more interested in politics. Politics is a utter mess in this country.
 
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Brighton Sky Blue

Well-Known Member
I agree with you on the tourism bit -- always find that funny -- could give Prince Edward the job of selling tickets and Andrew doing the guided tours. Give the something to do.

Truth is though many of the Presidential systems are also deeply flawed and ultimately the choice the electorate will face are people from similar ideologies who offer little choice. Actually what you would probably get is a moderately left wing President and the public would balance this with a moderately right wing House of Commons resulting in a paralysis of decision making.

If you are worried about democracy the true democratic thing to do is let the people decide what constitution they want.

I'm sure we could tailor a democratic system to suit the UK though Grendel-that's not a showstopper. Allowing people a referendum on the issue would be the fairest way of deciding but the problem is that the media and Palace PR have such a heavy influence from the off, and in schools there is very little made of republicanism except for Cromwell-so the vote would always be skewed grossly in favour of monarchy. I'd love to see a change in my lifetime but doubt it'll happen.
 

Brighton Sky Blue

Well-Known Member
I agree. However, I personally think the bigger issue lies in politics itself. So many pointless over the top laws and rules that are so detailed people are finding loopholes or ways around it. Bankers, politicians, the rich; there all at it. If everything was made black and white with less legal "talk" things would run much smoother and easier in the uk. It would also make the people of the uk a lost more interested in politics. Politics is a utter mess in this country.

Agree with you there Tad-it all adds up to a Britain that is anything but the kind of democracy it claims to be. The monarchy I find is just the biggest symbol of that.
 

Macca

Well-Known Member
It costs 50p per head to keep the monarch (in the whole of Britain, so 33m+?) whereas 'the wasters' you talk of each one would have considerably lower contribution of your taxes, sir.

I think we can actually add the royal family to the category of wasters.

50 p, good lord that will keep me awake at night.

I d rather worry about more pressing issues.

Each to their own though. I respect anyone who feels strongly about something
 

Mucca Mad Boys

Well-Known Member
The NHS is now totally different to the concept when created. It is a collosal drain on resources and needs to be re-addressed.

It should exist for those who cannot afford alteratives. Those who can should be encouraged through tax breaks to take Private Health Cover and the NHS should not indulge in cosmetic and other non-essential work.

The State is too cumbersome and is not working.

Grendel, the NHS mess can be sorted out on these two things, all money from the criminal car parking goes straight to the NHS fund, as with the TV and phone services, that would make A LOT of money back.

Also, I think there should be steps taken, at education level to promote healthy lifestyles, and put a lot more emphasis on sport so we have a healthier population, so therefore, the NHS could cut costs following simple steps, I will give you this, it won't cut every cost, but would make a lot of ground.

The NHS system helped me and my mum (single parent), I have eczema and asthma and the cost of one pot is £7, I have had 2 creams, bath lotion and my inhalers. I had a good childhood, my mum provided for me, she worked hard (2 jobs) to keep us above the poverty line, without the NHS, it would've made my mum's life a lot harder.

*Special mention for Labour's child tax reforms, that also helped.

The NHS is the best thing about this 'country', and if anyone tried to take it away, I'd take to the streets in protest.
 

Brighton Sky Blue

Well-Known Member
50 p, good lord that will keep me awake at night.

I d rather worry about more pressing issues.

Each to their own though. I respect anyone who feels strongly about something

£200 million on the Windsors or NHS?
 

Macca

Well-Known Member
The NHS obviously. Once they had ironed out the financial waste that occurs in the NHS.

Speaking from experience the NHS bleeds money. Too much spent on pen pushers rather than care.

I guess if I really thought abolishing the monarchy would make a massive difference I'd be in, but I don t and therefore am pretty apathetic.

Like I said fair play to others who have stronger feelings
 

jimmyhillsfanclub

Well-Known Member
I used to be a staunch Republican.....

I also used to be an activist, a protester & I used to vote at every opportunity....

now I couldn't give a flying fuck....

...Life is far too short to worry about all the shit you can't change......

...You have 2 choices....Be continually outraged/angry/sad/dissappoined/frustrated that the world we live in is deeply unfair...

....Or just get used to the idea that life can be a pisser sometimes, just play the system (don't waste yer energy fighting it) & make the most of your brief time on this planet.....:whistle:
 

Brighton Sky Blue

Well-Known Member
I used to be a staunch Republican.....

I also used to be an activist, a protester & I used to vote at every opportunity....

now I couldn't give a flying fuck....

...Life is far too short to worry about all the shit you can't change......

...You have 2 choices....Be continually outraged/angry/sad/dissappoined/frustrated that the world we live in is deeply unfair...

....Or just get used to the idea that life can be a pisser sometimes, just play the system (don't waste yer energy fighting it) & make the most of your brief time on this planet.....:whistle:

If everyone had this attitude we'd be fooked.
 

Tad

Member
The NHS obviously. Once they had ironed out the financial waste that occurs in the NHS.

Speaking from experience the NHS bleeds money. Too much spent on pen pushers rather than care.

Which is because of all this bullcrap red tape in politics and so. It's the same reason many dont become teachers. Every single thing has to be reported and they up end neck deep in red tape when all they want to do is teach.

Its happened in every line of work. Why do politicians think all these companies try so hard to avoid tax laws by setting up in Ireland, Germany etc instead. Companies aren't happy with the way things are ran here so they go elsewhere instead.
 

jimmyhillsfanclub

Well-Known Member
That being the case then why keep the status quo.


Because despite the goodwill & effort of millions of people over hundreds of years fighting many many good causes....the fundimentals never change....

...The vast majority of the worlds population are shat on daily by the few....

...Always have been....always will be....
 

Mucca Mad Boys

Well-Known Member
50 p, good lord that will keep me awake at night.

I d rather worry about more pressing issues.

Each to their own though. I respect anyone who feels strongly about something

But yet you are among those who are crying over the 'welfare state'!? We all pay for their privileges, lets take them back!?
 

Macca

Well-Known Member
But yet you are among those who are crying over the 'welfare state'!? We all pay for their privileges, lets take them back!?

If I thought the money would be wisely used I would agree.

No problem with the welfare when its deserved, but I know many many people who abuse it. That bothers me, sorry about that
 

Mucca Mad Boys

Well-Known Member
If I thought the money would be wisely used I would agree.

No problem with the welfare when its deserved, but I know many many people who abuse it. That bothers me, sorry about that

But yet your not bothered about pampering our very own 'divinely appointed Head of State'? When they have more money than us put together x10, that is wrong! Would you pay for my wedding? No, but you paid for dear Will's!

The royal family are the BIGGEST, & UNDESERVING, claimants of the welfare state! Fact.
 

Grendel

Well-Known Member
I'm sorry that you consider people's health a drain on resources.

You've missed the point.

It is a drain on resources because it tries to encompass all things and is grossly inefficient as is all Government institution's.

It's primary function should be care of the most vulnerable and resources should be directed where needed.

Most people want the NHS but don't want to pay for it. I have had some experience of care in Europe and my impression is it is far more efficient but the tax rates in those countries in general is higher.

Similar with education. It costs more per pupil to send a child to a state school in this country than to one of the private schools that operate in the city but the experience in general is not as good.

Britain is a confusing country. It has some socialist principals in terms of the state and what it should provide but would rather not foot the bill.
 

Grendel

Well-Known Member
But yet your not bothered about pampering our very own 'divinely appointed Head of State'? When they have more money than us put together x10, that is wrong! Would you pay for my wedding? No, but you paid for dear Will's!

The royal family are the BIGGEST, & UNDESERVING, claimants of the welfare state! Fact.

And so would a president as would any Head of State.

The European Parliament is the biggest slush fund and waste of resource you could imagine but it is all democratic.
 

Grendel

Well-Known Member
I'm sure we could tailor a democratic system to suit the UK though Grendel-that's not a showstopper. Allowing people a referendum on the issue would be the fairest way of deciding but the problem is that the media and Palace PR have such a heavy influence from the off, and in schools there is very little made of republicanism except for Cromwell-so the vote would always be skewed grossly in favour of monarchy. I'd love to see a change in my lifetime but doubt it'll happen.

I think this is the type of argument the true socialists of our time like Stalin would deploy. Let's educate children to our way of thinking and ignore the majority of the people (who would vote to keep the status quo) as they are not able to act and make an independent view.
 

wingy

Well-Known Member
You've missed the point.

It is a drain on resources because it tries to encompass all things and is grossly inefficient as is all Government institution's.

It's primary function should be care of the most vulnerable and resources should be directed where needed.

Most people want the NHS but don't want to pay for it. I have had some experience of care in Europe and my impression is it is far more efficient but the tax rates in those countries in general is higher.

Similar with education. It costs more per pupil to send a child to a state school in this country than to one of the private schools that operate in the city but the experience in general is not as good.

Britain is a confusing country. It has some socialist principals in terms of the state and what it should provide but would rather not foot the bill.


The me first sea change only occurred as recently as Thatcher KD,one of the worst directions this

country took post war,we had a very cohesive society to that point ,unfortunately she thought it did'nt exist.:(:jerkit::jerkit::slap:
 

Mucca Mad Boys

Well-Known Member
I think this is the type of argument the true socialists of our time like Stalin would deploy. Let's educate children to our way of thinking and ignore the majority of the people (who would vote to keep the status quo) as they are not able to act and make an independent view.

Before I start, I'm offended to be categorised with Stalin, he is not a true socialist and in fact, he betrayed 1917, he's an unintelligible authoritarian!

And actually, we are taught to like the monarch, the press support the monarch, you could argue we are indoctrinated to like the monarch, what BrightonSkyBlue is saying is tell 2 sides of the story, but if you look at history, there is no room for monarchs, they are past their sell by date.
 

Mucca Mad Boys

Well-Known Member
And so would a president as would any Head of State.

The European Parliament is the biggest slush fund and waste of resource you could imagine but it is all democratic.

We still have to pay for the PM! Cost more to send Prince Charles to East London, than David Cameron to Afghanistan! :facepalm:
 

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