Do you want to discuss boring politics? (168 Viewers)

[Sky Blue Pete]

Let’s see if it translates to reality in the polling booths. The simultaneous destruction of both Tories and the SNP would be a wet dream

It won’t be anywhere near as clear cut I don’t think

Lab 35
Con 25
Reform 15
Lib Dem 12
Green 6

share of vote

Think they’ll be a lot of shy Tory voters so the initial exit poll will be out too.

 

---

[shmmeee]

So the left wing approach to staffing health and social care is not to pay a market rate for the jobs, but rather to exploit cheap immigrant labour.

The left wing approach would be to raise taxes to a level where we can pay wages in many public sector roles that are competitive with shelf stacking at Aldi. But that approach doesn’t win elections so this is what we get.

 

[shmmeee]

It won’t be anywhere near as clear cut I don’t think

Lab 35
Con 25
Reform 15
Lib Dem 12
Green 6

share of vote

Think they’ll be a lot of shy Tory voters so the initial exit poll will be out too.

I think shy reform is more likely TBH

 

[clint van damme]

So the left wing approach to staffing health and social care is not to pay a market rate for the jobs, but rather to exploit cheap immigrant labour.

Social care is hanging by a thread, without immigrant labour it would implode, this has happened on the tory watch.
Admittedly is a problem in plenty of other countries as we all live longer.
So what's your solution or what will the tories do to fix it?

 

[Sick Boy]

It’s incredible how much discourse over the last few years has been dedicated to the idea that you can’t call racists racist, you can’t call fascists fascist and any criticism of cultural figures on the right is “cancel culture”.

It surely amounts to weaponised propaganda.

Actual fascists will proudly call themselves fascist.

 

[MalcSB]

Social care is hanging by a thread, without immigrant labour it would implode, this has happened on the tory watch.
Admittedly is a problem in plenty of other countries as we all live longer.
So what's your solution or what will the tories do to fix it?

Pay a market rate to make the jobs attractive to UK citizens would be a good start.

 

[fernandopartridge]

So the left wing approach to staffing health and social care is not to pay a market rate for the jobs, but rather to exploit cheap immigrant labour.

The point is that there isn't capacity in the domestic Labour market.

That said, it is also true that social care in particular 'exploit' cheap wages, more out of being forced to do so after years of real terms cuts to the rates paid to them by their commissioners. The commissioners that are forced to do so because of years of real terms cuts to their budgets.

 

[David O'Day]

It won’t be anywhere near as clear cut I don’t think

Lab 35
Con 25
Reform 15
Lib Dem 12
Green 6

share of vote

Think they’ll be a lot of shy Tory voters so the initial exit poll will be out too.

it'll be wider than that, the "shy tory" thing is a myth these days. Also the by elections were pretty much in line with polling

 

[clint van damme]

Pay a market rate to make the jobs attractive to UK citizens would be a good start.

I'm all for it. And for NHS staff, I'm sure you're an advocate for that as well.
Unfortunately it's highly unlikely to happen.

 

[fatso]

The left wing approach would be to raise taxes to a level where we can pay wages in many public sector roles that are competitive with shelf stacking at Aldi. But that approach doesn’t win elections so this is what we get.

Or the left will tax people to the limit where it no longer becomes viable for them to work.

 

[MalcSB]

I'm all for it. And for NHS staff, I'm sure you're an advocate for that as well.
Unfortunately it's highly unlikely to happen.

With social care, proper training and a career structure alongside decent wages would make a huge difference.
As you say, unlikely to happen in either sector, but perhaps more industrial action might be accepted now that genie has been let out of the bottle - especially with the repeal of the laws that Labour are proposing. It will be interesting to see what a Labour government is.

 

[MalcSB]

Or the left will tax people to the limit where it no longer becomes viable for them to work.

But then the benefits system needs to be looked at as well.

 

[clint van damme]

Or the left will tax people to the limit where it no longer becomes viable for them to work.

In which case we suppress wages and keep importing labour.
Is there another way?

 

[fatso]

In which case we suppress wages and keep importing labour.
Is there another way?

There has to be another way.

I'm just glad I'm not a politician.

 

[David O'Day]

He is not unpopular with the target audience.

he is, really really unpopular with virtually all groups

 

[MalcSB]

The point is that there isn't capacity in the domestic Labour market.

That said, it is also true that social care in particular 'exploit' cheap wages, more out of being forced to do so after years of real terms cuts to the rates paid to them by their commissioners. The commissioners that are forced to do so because of years of real terms cuts to their budgets.

I think social care providers exploit immigrant and indigenous workers because they can. Whilst public sector commissioners, mainly local authorities limit both the price they will pay and the cases they support, those who pay themselves have seen prices escalate. I’m not convinced that care providers are struggling financially.

 

[clint van damme]

But then the benefits system needs to be looked at as well.

Benefit system?
Like tax avoidance, utility dividends and the PPE VIP lane you mean?
The people who have really rinsed this country at huge personal gain to themselves.

 

[fernandopartridge]

I think social care providers exploit immigrant and indigenous workers because they can. Whilst public sector commissioners, mainly local authorities limit both the price they will pay and the cases they support, those who pay themselves have seen prices escalate. I’m not convinced that care providers are struggling financially.

I think it's a mixed bag. One thing that could be done is to contractually oblige payment of living wage or better. One of the commissioners I worked with in London incorporated the London Living Wage as a standard contractual obligation. It might not go far enough though.

 

[MalcSB]

he is, really really unpopular with virtually all groups

That doesn’t make my statement incorrect. Starmer isn’t all that popular himself is he?

 

[MalcSB]

Benefit system?
Like tax avoidance, utility dividends and the PPE VIP lane you mean?
The people who have really rinsed this country at huge personal gain to themselves.

I totally agree that these need to be addressed as well - but it has to pay to work.
However, with regards to covid in general and to PPE in particular we will never know what a Labour Government would have done.

 

[clint van damme]

I totally agree that these need to be addressed as well - but it has to pay to work.
However, with regards to covid in general and to PPE in particular we will never know what a Labour Government would have done.

That's a weak argument though. They may have handled it incredibly well, they could have been worse.
Fact was the tories and their spiv mates rinsed us, time to take it back as far as I'm concerned.

 

[David O'Day]

That doesn’t make my statement incorrect. Starmer isn’t all that popular himself is he?

Not actually true i you look at some of the approval rating polls, but that isn't why he is going to win. Boris Johnson who is deeply unpopular to everyone apart from a few bat shit crazies is actually part of the reason Starmer is going to be PM on Friday.

 

[Ian1779]

So the left wing approach to staffing health and social care is not to pay a market rate for the jobs, but rather to exploit cheap immigrant labour.

 

[PVA]

He is not unpopular with the target audience.

He is popular with a small group of 65+ Brexit voters. But every demographic dislikes him more than not.

 

[MalcSB]

View attachment 36595

Well argued response

 

[SBAndy]

Care should be brought into the public sectir.

 

[Deleted member 9744]

So the left wing approach to staffing health and social care is not to pay a market rate for the jobs, but rather to exploit cheap immigrant labour.

What's your solution for the ten years until.we have fully trained doctors in place, even if we started a mass recruitment now?

No Government takes a long term approach to this issue.

 

[MalcSB]

What's your solution for the ten years until.we have fully trained doctors in place, even if we started a mass recruitment now?

Stop planning on the basis that immigration will solve the problem and have a strategy to “grow our own”. Nobody is dumb enough to think it can be done overnight.

 

[clint van damme]

Stop planning on the basis that immigration will solve the problem and have a strategy to “grow our own”. Nobody is dumb enough to think it can be done overnight.

Given what's going on with junior doctors I'm not sure it's a very attractive career path.

 

[MalcSB]

Given what's going on with junior doctors I'm not sure it's a very attractive career path.

Years without a pay rise tends to piss people off.

 

[chiefdave]

Care should be brought into the public sectir.

Could not agree more with this. When I look at the amount I'm charged every week for my Dad and then the lack of maintenance at the care home, the budget for meals, the pay to staff etc it doesn't even come close to making any sense.

We all know there's people at the top making huge amounts of money while providing the absolute minimum level of service they can get away with, and that level is very low as the desperate shortage of places in care homes, especially for those with complex care needs (ie: the less profitable old people), means that even when inspections show services failing to meet minimum standards very little happens.

 

[Deleted member 9744]

Stop planning on the basis that immigration will solve the problem and have a strategy to “grow our own”. Nobody is dumb enough to think it can be done overnight.

But no Government does that. It's too costly and long term and people don't want to pay more in tax.

 

[Deleted member 5849]

Stop planning on the basis that immigration will solve the problem and have a strategy to “grow our own”. Nobody is dumb enough to think it can be done overnight.

I fear some are. Or, if not dumb, manipulative enough.

I mean really we need a high tax, high spend option but no party's offering that!

 

[MalcSB]

Where is the Labour Government going to find all the qualified staff to meet their health promises?

For example, I totally agree that more CT and MRI scanners are needed, but there is a shortage of radiographers and radiologists to staff them and report on the scans. Staffing will require significant additional revenue.

The take up of additional hours to provide additional appointments will also be interesting, especially if a LTA on pensions is reintroduced.

 

[jimmyhillsfanclub]

Given what's going on with junior doctors I'm not sure it's a very attractive career path.

bit of a tangent, but it appears to me that the whole junior doctor/Registrar/GP/consultant pay & pension structure needs reform.....

Seems mad to me that a 25 year old Junior Doctor is struggling to make ends meet whilst doing shed loads of hours....then roll on a few career years & we're having to adjust the pension tax rules to try & ensure all the middle-aged consultants don't decide to spend 4 days a week on the golf course or bin it off completely & retire at 50....... seems a bit fucked up to me....