Do you want to discuss boring politics? (53 Viewers)

[robbiekeane]

There was an academic study recently that showed at one point under the outgoing Tory government we had overtaken the US as the most right wing country in the world, in terms of economic and fiscal policy, this was based on the policies that were in place at that time.

I think you need to open your eyes.

Can you share this study?

The UK Conservative Party prefers a mixed economy with yes more free market principles but also supporting government intervention and social welfare, including public healthcare.
Economic policies are arguably centrist also

Socially much more moderate than other conservative parties across the world.

Within the context of UK politics they are centre right, and compared to countries like the U.S. I’d say they are more centrist

 

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[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

The problem is without any deterant there's no reason not to commit crime.
Rehab although a crucial part in preventing re offending isn't the only solution.
We've had rehab for donkeys years without stopping reoffending. Go and ask any shop owners if shoplifting has increased or decreased since police stopped bothering with it.
Weak ass woolly do gooders like you would see a massive rise in crime once the punishment was reduced.
So in short punishment AND rehab is the way to go imo.

But there the lack of deterrent is not not going to prison, it's that it's not likely to get investigated at all.

We've had prison for more than donkey's years and it hasn't stopped re-offending either. Whereas other countries not that far from here take a completely different view and their results are far better.

I want to see all crimes being taken seriously and getting investigated. However once that happens the best course of action in most cases isn't to lock people up IMO. It will not solve the problem of re-offending and more than likely make it worse. As I said prison should be for people who are a physical threat to people and so need to be kept separate from society for the safety of the public.

 

[fernandopartridge]

The French election looks like it's going to end up with a leftwing alliance as the largest party.

 

[fatso]

But there the lack of deterrent is not not going to prison, it's that it's not likely to get investigated at all.

We've had prison for more than donkey's years and it hasn't stopped re-offending either. Whereas other countries not that far from here take a completely different view and their results are far better.

I want to see all crimes being taken seriously and getting investigated. However once that happens the best course of action in most cases isn't to lock people up IMO. It will not solve the problem of re-offending and more than likely make it worse. As I said prison should be for people who are a physical threat to people and so need to be kept separate from society for the safety of the public.

I get that, but. (There's always a but) what stops people from committing a crime in the first place? Especially if there's no meaningful consequences for their action.

I'm quite aware that some people re-offend regardless of prison, but many don't.

 

[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

I get that, but. (There's always a but) what stops people from committing a crime in the first place? Especially if there's no meaningful consequences for their action.

I'm quite aware that some people re-offend regardless of prison, but many don't.

What stops people committing crime in the first place? A society that has a more equal distribution of wages as well as fairer access to decent education and removal of economic barriers like class. Secondly access to services such as mental health so issues can be caught before they become a criminal problem. Thirdly, an effective welfare safety net so people aren't pushed into crime out of financial desperation.

 

[Deleted member 9744]

Jesus Christ, if you think they are far right I think you need to open a history book, or look at US politics

Good grief! Really you don't think that having your central policy of breaking international law to send asylum seekers to an African country with a questionable human rights record and threatening to join only Russia and Belarus in leaving the European Court on Rights is far right?

Being prepared to spend £380 million on just start up fees for this policy and rounding up foreigners in advance of the election for potential flights to cause a climate of fear and intimidation to continue the hostile environment which they started under Theresa May, including the Windrush scandal. Tell me how these policies are different from the National Front's policies in the 1980s.

Putting asylum seekers in big boats and the Immigration Minister insisting on children's paintings being painted over to make the accommodation uninviting. And you think this us centre right? I am at a loss to understand this type of thinking .

 

[robbiekeane]

Good grief! Really you don't think that having your central policy of breaking international law to send asylum seekers to an African country with a questionable human rights record and threatening to join only Russia and Belarus in leaving the European Court on Rights is far right?

I think it’s lip service to try and capture some votes of the more extreme parties yeh.

Which in hindsight, strategically not a bad move given where all their votes went

But that doesn’t make them a far right party does it

 

[shmmeee]

I think it’s lip service to try and capture some votes of the more extreme parties yeh.

Which in hindsight, strategically not a bad move given where all their votes went

But that doesn’t make them a far right party does it

Strategically a fucking awful move to make immigration a major issue when you can’t do anything about it and your record is terrible TBF

 

[shmmeee]

The country has definitely lurched to the right though. The Rwanda scheme would have been the stuff of dreams for Meloni!

The country has about 20-30% of the population who really care about immigration. More than anything else. And you can get their vote by being more and more extreme on immigration. Most of those people aren’t particularly right wing in any normal sense of the word. They just really want fewer foreigners. Which was why Brexit has been such a mess because they can’t agree on politics. The Tories and Reform are fighting over that 30% max.

 

[Deleted member 9744]

I think it’s lip service to try and capture some votes of the more extreme parties yeh.

Which in hindsight, strategically not a bad move given where all their votes went

But that doesn’t make them a far right party does it

No it's not. It's the culmination of a concerted campaign to target a section of the population as scapegoat for their failures in Governement. Let’s not forget the 'accidental' loss of the papers of members of Windrush generation and sending vans into areas of North London with messages to foreigners to go home. Declaring a hostile environment to immigrants and basing their whole election strategy around sending immigrants to Rwanda. If you think those are actions of a centrist Government I can't think what a far right one would be.

We have some real challenges, as in important things, like tackling homelessness, NHS waiting lists and climate change yet the Tories concentrated their energies in vilifying minorities. Is that what a centre right Government does? Really?

Try imagining their actions and rhetoric from the perspective of an asylum seeking coming here fleeing persecution from the Taliban or a Windrush victim of the Tory Government and let me know if you would see them as centrist.

 

[MalcSB]

No it's not. It's the culmination of a concerted campaign to target a section of the population as scapegoat for their failures in Governement. Let’s not forget the 'accidental' loss of the papers of members of Windrush generation and sending vans into areas of North London with messages to foreigners to go home. Declaring a hostile environment to immigrants and basing their whole election strategy around sending immigrants to Rwanda. If you think those are actions of a centrist Government I can't think what a far right one would be.

We have some real challenges, as in important things, like tackling homelessness, NHS waiting lists and climate change yet the Tories concentrated their energies in vilifying minorities. Is that what a centre right Government does? Really?

Try imagining their actions and rhetoric from the perspective of an asylum seeking coming here fleeing persecution from the Taliban or a Windrush victim of the Tory Government and let me know if you would see them as centrist.

The decision to destroy the Windrush papers was taken by the Labour government in 2009. They weren’t accidentally lost.

 

[robbiekeane]

No it's not. It's the culmination of a concerted campaign to target a section of the population as scapegoat for their failures in Governement. Let’s not forget the 'accidental' loss of the papers of members of Windrush generation and sending vans into areas of North London with messages to foreigners to go home. Declaring a hostile environment to immigrants and basing their whole election strategy around sending immigrants to Rwanda. If you think those are actions of a centrist Government I can't think what a far right one would be.

We have some real challenges, as in important things, like tackling homelessness, NHS waiting lists and climate change yet the Tories concentrated their energies in vilifying minorities. Is that what a centre right Government does? Really?

Try imagining their actions and rhetoric from the perspective of an asylum seeking coming here fleeing persecution from the Taliban or a Windrush victim of the Tory Government and let me know if you would see them as centrist.

You’re taking one seemingly extreme part of their campaign (realistically they didn’t actually send anyone to Rwanda did they) and pretending that that’s representative of their whole manifesto.

In reality they knew it was a major factor for their voter base so they responded accordingly. That aside they are socially pretty centrist (legalised same sex marriage, maintain public healthcare, maintain social welfare), as well as economically (progressive taxation, publicly funded education, intervention in financial services and environmental protection).

Getting all wound up because they doubled down on their (ineffective) hard line immigration policy because that’s obviously what their voter base wanted (see: all the bloody votes that went to reform) doesn’t make them an extreme right party.

If people honestly can’t see that then there’s no hope

 

[robbiekeane]

Strategically a fucking awful move to make immigration a major issue when you can’t do anything about it and your record is terrible TBF

You’re talking about execution. I’m talking about making it a focal point of their campaign. Much of their voter base moved to reform primarily because of immigration. To suggest it wasn’t strategically the right move to focus on this is silly

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

You’re taking one seemingly extreme part of their campaign (realistically they didn’t actually send anyone to Rwanda did they) and pretending that that’s representative of their whole manifesto.

In reality they knew it was a major factor for their voter base so they responded accordingly. That aside they are socially pretty centrist (legalised same sex marriage, maintain public healthcare, maintain social welfare), as well as economically (progressive taxation, publicly funded education, intervention in financial services and environmental protection).

Getting all wound up because they doubled down on their (ineffective) hard line immigration policy because that’s obviously what their voter base wanted (see: all the bloody votes that went to reform) doesn’t make them an extreme right party.

If people honestly can’t see that then there’s no hope

Wow. We should now be grateful that they didn’t want to overtly dismantle state education and healthcare? This is what was posted above, that the dial keeps turning right so that what is considered the centre has shifted right also.

The attacks on worker’s rights, rampant cuts to public spending, and since you mentioned the environment, decisions to allow pollution of the waterways were not centrist in any form. They aren’t far or centre right in my view, just ‘right’.

 

[robbiekeane]

Wow. We should now be grateful that they didn’t want to overtly dismantle state education and healthcare?

No, not grateful, can you point to where I said that? Just means with these general policies that they aren’t completely right-wing, are they?

They’ve kept the NHS, other public services, and public education, which is not typical of far-right parties. Yes, there are serious issues with cuts and environmental policies, but the overall stance is more nuanced than just "right."

Somehow you and others have equated “right” to “bad” and therefore anyone who tries to explain why they aren’t right wing in your mind is defending them.

They’re very very naughty people, who’ve done a very bad job. They are also centre right especially on a global context. Both can be true

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

No, not grateful, can you point to where I said that? Just means with these general policies that they aren’t completely right-wing, are they?

They’ve kept the NHS, other public services, and public education, which is not typical of far-right parties. Yes, there are serious issues with cuts and environmental policies, but the overall stance is more nuanced than just "right."

Somehow you and others have equated “right” to “bad” and therefore anyone who tries to explain why they aren’t right wing in your mind is defending them.

They’re very very naughty people, who’ve done a very bad job. They are also centre right especially on a global context. Both can be true

Deciding not to scrap the NHS and state education, in place since the 40s, is not somehow a moderate policy position and it’s baffling to me that people think it would be.

In my view it’s a party that gave up being centre right and sits somewhere between there and the far right. Scrapping worker’s rights up to the point of undermining the right to strike is undoubtedly right wing as one example.

 

[ovduk78]

Made me laugh

 

[shmmeee]

You’re talking about execution. I’m talking about making it a focal point of their campaign. Much of their voter base moved to reform primarily because of immigration. To suggest it wasn’t strategically the right move to focus on this is silly

No I’m talking about making it a focal point of the campaign. Increasing the salience of something you get outflanked on and can’t fix is bad politics. Would have been like Labour talking about Gaza all campaign.

 

[skybluetony176]

All the culture war bollocks was very hard right, especially the attacks on the LGBTQ+ community with one specific minority of the LGBTQ+ being especially targeted. Attacking minorities is straight out of the far right playbook. It’s also straight out of the playbook of Orbán.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Seen Labour make a start towards the pledge to recruit 6,500 new teachers. Which doesn’t include any attempt to improve pay or working conditions, so good luck with that.

This is already showing the problem when you hamstring yourself by sticking to Tory spending rules.

 

[clint van damme]

Seen Labour make a start towards the pledge to recruit 6,500 new teachers. Which doesn’t include any attempt to improve pay or working conditions, so good luck with that.

This is already showing the problem when you hamstring yourself by sticking to Tory spending rules.

Streeting is meeting the Junior doctors tomorrow, wonder what he's going to be able to offer them given their approach to spending?

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Streeting is meeting the Junior doctors tomorrow, wonder what he's going to be able to offer them given their approach to spending?

Not 35%, for sure. Bridget Philipson has to be fair said a lot of correct things about how teaching is perceived and needing to give the profession more respect…but only has that to offer in light of what would really help.

Streeting however is the type who will probably offer 0% even if Starmer allowed him 10

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

Not 35%, for sure. Bridget Philipson has to be fair said a lot of correct things about how teaching is perceived and needing to give the profession more respect…but only has that to offer in light of what would really help.

Streeting however is the type who will probably offer 0% even if Starmer allowed him 10

Yep Philipson seems someone the profession can work with

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Yep Philipson seems someone the profession can work with

She is, but she’s going to find herself handicapped by the Tory in the Treasury

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

She is, but she’s going to find herself handicapped by the Tory in the Treasury

Is it only money that will help?

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Is it only money that will help?

Pay is important, but it’s the working conditions that are why so many leave early on even if you could recruit them.

To help with these you would need significant investment in order to facilitate caps on class sizes and the hiring of more front line support staff to make teacher workload more in line with other Western European countries. Though a lot of cash could also be freed up if we fired all the MAT executives and MAT level staff who only became a thing since 2010.

 

[SIR ERNIE]

The worrying thing for France is that around 30% plus of the electorate are voting far right parties and if I was a betting man , I reckon that figure could rise further over the next 4 years .

200 MPs had to step down in certain areas to ensure that this happened through tactical voting.. that's a worry

This is actually good result for National Rally. France is in a real mess, pretty ungovernable and the total muck up that is about to develop cannot now be laid at le Pen’s door. It greatly increases her chances for 2027 which she's said all along is her prime objective.

 

[Ian1779]

Yep Philipson seems someone the profession can work with

She can start by getting the pay award published ASAP.

 

[PVA]

So Labour getting 400 seats is a bad result while Le Pen coming third is actually a great result

Never change SBT.

 

[Sick Boy]

All the culture war bollocks was very hard right, especially the attacks on the LGBTQ+ community with one specific minority of the LGBTQ+ being especially targeted. Attacking minorities is straight out of the far right playbook. It’s also straight out of the playbook of Orbán.

It’s what Meloni does as well but in reality, I’m not sure you can call a party that made gay marriage legal far right.

She would also certainly be a member of the Conservatives if she was a UK politician though.

 

[shmmeee]

It’s what Meloni does as well but in reality, I’m not sure you can call a party that made gay marriage legal far right.

She would also certainly be a member of the Conservatives if she was a UK politician though.

Libertarians are far right and they have no issue with gay marriage, or underage marriage, or animal marriage.

This is the issue with putting left right labels on social issues.

 

[robbiekeane]

Deciding not to scrap the NHS and state education, in place since the 40s, is not somehow a moderate policy position and it’s baffling to me that people think it would be.

In my view it’s a party that gave up being centre right and sits somewhere between there and the far right. Scrapping worker’s rights up to the point of undermining the right to strike is undoubtedly right wing as one example.

You have UK tunnel vision

 

[shmmeee]

Discussing if Reform/Tories are far right is so passé, the question is are the Greens left wing?

 

[Grendel]

France economy nosedives even further

https://www.reuters.com/markets/currencies/euro-falls-after-french-exit-poll-points-hung-parliament-2024-07-07/

 

[MalcSB]

So Labour getting 400 seats is a bad result while Le Pen coming third is actually a great result

Never change SBT.

400 seats isn’t a bad result. Reduced number of votes is what is bad whilst increase for Le Pen is great*.

Have you never heard of Momentum?

* your word, not mine