Do you want to discuss boring politics? (82 Viewers)

[MalcSB]

Not controlling for population is not serious. Half the planet lives in these two countries and you’re comparing them in absolute terms to a country of 70m. Come on.

You still are Ignoring the context. My graphs show not only absolute terms but change over time - increases in pursuit of wealth in the case of China and India.

 

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[Nick]

What’s the difference in your opinion?

A Donation is when you dont want anything in return, surely?
A bribe is when you give money to get something in return.

 

[MalcSB]

A Donation is when you dont want anything in return, surely?
A bribe is when you give money to get something in return.

Like an access pass to number 10?

 

[shmmeee]

A Donation is when you dont want anything in return, surely?
A bribe is when you give money to get something in return.

What do you think Lord Ali is getting?

 

[shmmeee]

You still are Ignoring the context. My graphs show not only absolute terms but change over time - increases in pursuit of wealth in the case of China and India.

You missed this graph, which was us doing it and kind of shows how stupid your point is.

 

[MalcSB]

You missed this graph, which was us doing it and kind of shows how stupid your point is.

View attachment 38593

And that is the argument used. It is ok for India and China to accelerate the crisis because we did it 150 years ago, despite the graph showing we have seen the error of our ways and are addressing it.

That is stupidity.

Surely they should have been encouraged / supported to learn from history and use all these wonderful new sources of energy. It just reinforces how pointless what the UK does in the grand scheme of things.

 

[wingy]

Not sure it’s racism so much as a lack of appreciation and understanding of what China have been doing with regard to solar, EVs etc and also the fact that because they’re such a big country/population the damage being done is still huge. The new coal/power plants don’t help either. The US should be doing a lot more !

Im glad we’re doing our bit but ultimately it’s totally insignificant in the grand scheme of things

It doesn't address the case of the USA does it,if we're at circa 5 china 9 USA 14 there's the answer written large isn't it?

 

[wingy]

I have posted some graphs.
What we are doing is insignificant, it’s China, India, US and Russia that need to be taking more action

Agreed but to be accurate USA needs to go first,?

 

[wingy]

You missed this graph, which was us doing it and kind of shows how stupid your point is.

View attachment 38593

Already back to the 50's, not bad but what are two big decreases,War is ecomically , environmentally our friend?

 

[MalcSB]

Already back to the 50's, not bad but what are two big decreases,War is ecomically , environmentally our friend?

Actually back to 1880.

 

[MalcSB]

Agreed but to be accurate USA needs to go first,?

Certainly not the UK.

 

[skybluetony176]

Bollocks is it racism.

I said “They will probably follow China and India in burning lots of coal to achieve it though.”.

The figures you have quoted have no relevance to that statement.

These graphs show how China and India have increased CO2 emissions as they have sought to increase wealth, compared to UK decrease over time. If per capita CO2 production is the yardstick, someone needs to have a serious word with Palau
View attachment 38592

View attachment 38590

View attachment 38591

TBF you’re making a lazy argument. Per capita or by land mass China and India are far from the worst polluters. That’s not even why your argument is lazy though. It’s lazy because it ignores that the West exports its co2 emissions to China and India for that matter. They are the world’s factories. Every time you buy a product made in China you’re exporting part of your carbon footprint to China. Every time you buy something with a Chinese component in (which is basically anything electrical) you are exporting part of your carbon footprint. It’s lazy to point the finger at china while patting yourself on the back while consuming Chinese products. Their carbon footprint is also the Wests carbon footprint, at least in part.

 

[wingy]

Actually back to 1880.

Oh cheers couldn't really see it tbf.

 

[MalcSB]

TBF you’re making a lazy argument. Per capita or by land mass China and India are far from the worst polluters. That’s not even why your argument is lazy though. It’s lazy because it ignores that the West exports its co2 emissions to China and India for that matter. They are the world’s factories. Every time you buy a product made in China you’re exporting part of your carbon footprint to China. Every time you buy something with a Chinese component in (which is basically anything electrical) you are exporting part of your carbon footprint. It’s lazy to point the finger at china while patting yourself on the back while consuming Chinese products. Their carbon footprint is also the Wests carbon footprint, at least in part.

Again, losing the context whIch started this particular debate which was about countries increasing their wealth and my response that they would do what Ch8na and India have done and burn more coal. The data I have shown supports that that is what they have done.

As far as I know, in the days of James Watt wind, solar, tidal and nuclear energy didn’t exist and global warming wasn’t a consideration. So to excuse India and China continuing increase in emissions on the basis that “the west did it “ is stupid.

I totally agree with your comments about the export of carbon footprint and, believe it or not, I have tried to avoid stuff overtly made in China. It is almost impossible to do so though, as you have said

The worst polluter per capita is Palau, whose total co2 production is so small as to register as 0% on the table I have seen. Excusing countries on the per capita basis is also lazy.

 

[wingy]

Again, losing the context whIch started this particular debate which was about countries increasing their wealth and my response that they would do what Ch8na and India have done and burn more coal. The data I have shown supports that that is what they have done.

As far as I know, in the days of James Watt wind, solar, tidal and nuclear energy didn’t exist and global warming wasn’t a consideration. So to excuse India and China continuing increase in emissions on the basis that “the west did it “ is stupid.

I totally agree with your comments about the export of carbon footprint and, believe it or not, I have tried to avoid stuff overtly made in China. It is almost impossible to do so though, as you have said

The worst polluter per capita is Palau, whose total co2 production is so small as to register as 0% on the table I have seen. Excusing countries on the per capita basis is also lazy.

It can't be surely?
We can't pull up the drawbridge now it's simply not equitable is it really,world Gov't here we come?

 

[MalcSB]

It can't be surely?
We can't pull up the drawbridge now it's simply not equitable is it really,world Gov't here we come?

What do you want? Equity or existence?

There are alternatives to fossil fuels which Ed Milliband assures us are both cheaper and “more secure”. Why aren’t India and China exclusively installing these as their new power plants?

UK getting to absolute net zero takes away 341,000,000 tons of CO2 Per year.
Two years at India’s increase will add 350,000,000 tons per year, meaning an additional 2 billion tons being produced by 2030.

What is the point of the UK taking a lead. We don’t have any influence in the world any more (and same goes f9r the justification for billions in foreign aid).

 

[chiefdave]

What do you want? Equity or existence?

There are alternatives to fossil fuels which Ed Milliband assures us are both cheaper and “more secure”. Why aren’t India and China exclusively installing these as their new power plants?

UK getting to absolute net zero takes away 341,000,000 tons of CO2 Per year.
Two years at India’s increase will add 350,000,000 tons per year, meaning an additional 2 billion tons being produced by 2030.

What is the point of the UK taking a lead. We don’t have any influence in the world any more (and same goes f9r the justification for billions in foreign aid).

How much of the output from China & India is from countries like the UK moving their manufacturing requirements there?

https://globalenergymonitor.org/report/china-continues-to-lead-the-world-in-wind-and-solar-with-twice-as-much-capacity-under-construction-as-the-rest-of-the-world-combined/

https://unfccc.int/news/china-and-india-lead-global-renewable-energy-transition

India’s lead role in the new wave of energy sector growth

The Indian government is rolling out “big bang” clean energy policies and reforms including the green hydrogen and green ammonia policy, production-linked incentive schemes in solar module and battery manufacturing, market based economic dispatch, general network access, green energy corridor...

ieefa.org

 

[MalcSB]

How much of the output from China & India is from countries like the UK moving their manufacturing requirements there?

https://globalenergymonitor.org/report/china-continues-to-lead-the-world-in-wind-and-solar-with-twice-as-much-capacity-under-construction-as-the-rest-of-the-world-combined/

https://unfccc.int/news/china-and-india-lead-global-renewable-energy-transition

India’s lead role in the new wave of energy sector growth

The Indian government is rolling out “big bang” clean energy policies and reforms including the green hydrogen and green ammonia policy, production-linked incentive schemes in solar module and battery manufacturing, market based economic dispatch, general network access, green energy corridor...

ieefa.org

Fantastic, should see some huge reductions in global CO2 then without the UK needing to incur huge costs.

Totally agree about the shift in production.

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

I’ve done a 180 on this is the last 5-6 years.

The emergency of solar + battery changes everything and I fully expect us to beat decarbonisation targets long term now.

And overpopulation and the damage already done? No major surgery required?

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

Also Africas birth rate is already dropping like everywhere else. The world average is down to 2.3 children per couple, only just above the replacement rate. Overpopulation really isn’t a concern.

How?

 

[MalcSB]

Yeah normal working class people hate a freebie

Don't you mean working people?

About 20 years ago, when I was working, I refused the offer of tickets to Twickenham from a company with whom I had agreed a several million pound deal as I didn’t want to be accused of any corruption. I think I was normal back then.

 

[shmmeee]

How?

No that’s native Americans.

 

[shmmeee]

Don't you mean working people?

About 20 years ago, when I was working, I refused the offer of tickets to Twickenham from a company with whom I had agreed a several million pound deal as I didn’t want to be accused of any corruption. I think I was normal back then.

I mean what Nick said which was that working class people wouldn’t take a freebie if offered at work.

You’re talking about someone you’ve given millions of pounds of business to and likening it to a party donor donating to the party. Come on you’re brighter than this.

 

[Marty]

Don't they expect the worlds population to hit about 10 billion before it dramatically drops?

 

[shmmeee]

And overpopulation and the damage already done? No major surgery required?

Work to do, but we’re quite good at restoring biodiversity when we want to and TBH my concern has never been nature, that will always persevere. My concern was humanity. But we’ll be fine. Unless it really is aliens on the way 10 light years away.

 

[shmmeee]

Don't they expect the worlds population to hit about 10 billion before it dramatically drops?

Think so yeah. Not sure what those projections are based on though. Birth rate seems to be dropping a lot quicker than anyone predicted.

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

Work to do, but we’re quite good at restoring biodiversity when we want to and TBH my concern has never been nature, that will always persevere. My concern was humanity. But we’ll be fine. Unless it really is aliens on the way 10 light years away.

How can you be so sure when all the data suggests were fucked

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

Work to do, but we’re quite good at restoring biodiversity when we want to and TBH my concern has never been nature, that will always persevere. My concern was humanity. But we’ll be fine. Unless it really is aliens on the way 10 light years away.

And yep mine is humanity

 

[shmmeee]

How can you be so sure when all the data suggests were fucked

Change happens quickly. We aren’t relying on government so much to get their act together, tech is taking care of energy and I fully expect CO2 scrubbing to be next, probably nuclear powered. Population issues are easing. Developing nations performing better than we expected.

I’m positive. Everyone thought London would be swimming in horse shit until the car was invented. I think places like India China and Africa will leapfrog the west and go straight to clean decentralised power and transport.

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

Change happens quickly. We aren’t relying on government so much to get their act together, tech is taking care of energy and I fully expect CO2 scrubbing to be next, probably nuclear powered. Population issues are easing. Developing nations performing better than we expected.

I’m positive. Everyone thought London would be swimming in horse shit until the car was invented. I think places like India China and Africa will leapfrog the west and go straight to clean decentralised power and transport.

Do you have any reading you can share
I think it’s called a life crisis I’m currently experiencing and like to educate myself

 

[MalcSB]

How much of the output from China & India is from countries like the UK moving their manufacturing requirements there?

https://globalenergymonitor.org/report/china-continues-to-lead-the-world-in-wind-and-solar-with-twice-as-much-capacity-under-construction-as-the-rest-of-the-world-combined/

https://unfccc.int/news/china-and-india-lead-global-renewable-energy-transition

India’s lead role in the new wave of energy sector growth

The Indian government is rolling out “big bang” clean energy policies and reforms including the green hydrogen and green ammonia policy, production-linked incentive schemes in solar module and battery manufacturing, market based economic dispatch, general network access, green energy corridor...

ieefa.org

I’m a bit concerned that China’s renewables are sufficient to power South Korea. Are they trying to tell us something.

 

[MalcSB]

Are millionaires’ children attending state primary schools going to get free breakfasts?

 

[wingy]

Fantastic, should see some huge reductions in global CO2 then without the UK needing to incur huge costs.

Totally agree about the shift in production.

Sorry this is closed thinking they do it so we don't have to?

 

[shmmeee]

Do you have any reading you can share
I think it’s called a life crisis I’m currently experiencing and like to educate myself

Not in one place. I was where you are when I was hanging about with XR, but I think a lot of their concerns are overblown and my experience was they’re unrealistic and want to return to medieval times basically (a common issue in green circles).

Just watching solar and nuclear prices and what’s happening with EVs gives me hope. Along with the population stats. Things are turning in the right direction I feel. A few years ago with Trump in power destroying the US’s efforts and tech seemingly coming in too late things looked a lot worse. I think Harris will win and continue Biden excellent work. China I think will be fine, I’ve always thought that TBF. India is a bit of a worry but like Africa I expect that to be taken out of the hands of the politicians.

 

[fernandopartridge]

And that is the argument used. It is ok for India and China to accelerate the crisis because we did it 150 years ago, despite the graph showing we have seen the error of our ways and are addressing it.

That is stupidity.

Surely they should have been encouraged / supported to learn from history and use all these wonderful new sources of energy. It just reinforces how pointless what the UK does in the grand scheme of things.

We have not addressed it at all, we have outsourced it.