Brighton Sky Blue
Well-Known Member
Wrong, people weren’t complaining as much about the personnel as they were about the instructions players had clearly been given by an over cautious manager.
England - Lee Carsley Era (15 Viewers)
- Thread starter Evo1883
- Start date
Mucca Mad Boys
Well-Known Member
It can be both you know!
Go through the Euros thread and have a look at many of the poster’s teams. A lot of these suggested XI’s had Palmer, Foden, Saka and Bellingham all in the team.
rob9872
Well-Known Member
Otis
Well-Known Member
I am pretty certain that not one single person called for the likes of a line-up that included Palmer and Saka and Gordon and Foden and Bellingham, all together in the same lineup and without a recognised striker.
Completely unbalanced. I am certain no-one called for that.
I would say that, that was an experiment that was most certainly not worth trying.
Mucca Mad Boys
Well-Known Member
Plenty of people said that they’d have played a midfield 3 of Rice, Foden and Bellingham and a front 3 of Palmer, Saka and Kane.
Bellingham playing as a false 9 wasn’t a terrible idea ‘in theory’ and it’s concerning that without Kane we look bereft of ideas. I wasn’t enamoured with Watkins or Solanke when they came on but the same was true as Cov games; no clear cut chances!
I’m over it now, it was a good day out and as long as we win the group, it’ll be forgotten about down the line.
Evo1883
Well-Known Member
To be fair , rice and bellingham should be able to play next to eachother with foden in a 10? you could even swap palmer and foden around I don't see an issue at all , also Bellingham is a central midfielder
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Mucca Mad Boys
Well-Known Member
I don’t think it would work, we played something similar under Southgate and it looked underwhelming. Bellingham has played as a false 9 for most of Real Madrid’s games last year so it wasn’t a terrible idea on paper.
Looking at the bench yesterday, there wasn’t many game changers on it because we stacked the team with too much talent.
For both of Greece’s goals, it was just elementary defending and if you’ve got Foden and/or Palmer trying to make the last tackle, it’s probably not going to end well.
Last night, we most likely win this comfortably under Southgate, albeit unspectacularly.
Brighton Sky Blue
Well-Known Member
We lost 4-0 against Hungary under Southgate in this competition.
Mucca Mad Boys
Well-Known Member
I do recall that game v well, unfortunately.
Carsley got caught out being too attacking on this occasion. I wouldn’t mind him taking the job still if we go on to win the Group. It’s a transitional phase for him and the team and one bad performance and result doesn’t make you a bad manager.
StrettoBoy
Well-Known Member
Lots of attacking/creative midfielders but not a single specialist striker in the starting lineup and a lack of proper defenders.
It's just weird.
skybluecam
Well-Known Member
Get Carsley out and an actual manager in.
The front 4 were all over the place, absolutely no cohesion.
The front 4 were all over the place, absolutely no cohesion.
Mucca Mad Boys
Well-Known Member
There’s still a lot of goals in that team, Watkins hasn’t always looked great for England when we’re ball-dominant.
The defence was similar to Finland and it went well. I do agree that we lacked balance because in attack we had only the two CBs back. In attack a lot of teams will merge into a 3-2-5 shape and last night it felt like 2-2-6. Too many of the attacking players were in each other’s way, for example, whenever Palmer cut in Foden or Bellingham were in his channels.
It’s a lesson learnt and perhaps this is a classic case of ‘less is more’. I liked the balance the defence had v Ireland and we looked more potent with (on paper) less attacking threat in the last international break.
It is concerning that with a ‘weakened’ side in the last international break we looked far better than we brought in the superstars. It just looked over cooked but there were too many poor performances individually. Palmer should’ve put us 1-0 up and he uncharacteristically struggled on the ball and he wasn’t the only superstar who struggled.
Otis
Well-Known Member
I don't think Carsley got caught out with being too attacking, he got caught out playing too many attacking players and no front man.
I think the false nine was a terrible idea and I don't think you can play Palmer and Foden and Saka and Gordon and Bellingham all together at the same time.
As Stupot said, they were fighting for the same space on the pitch.
You can still play attacking football by playing fewer attacking players than last night
If Mainoo had been available, I think it would have most certainly been a different game entirely.
Otis
Well-Known Member
Yup. Bizarre.
stupot07
Well-Known Member
At Real Madrid he had Vinicius Junior and Rodrygo bombing past him, and now had Mbappe. All of our wingers and number 10s want the ball deeper to run at people or do give and goes. You have to have width and a threat in behind with you play a false 9
SkyBlue_Bear83
Well-Known Member
Rice and Bellingham were great at the 2022 World Cup playing as central midfielders in a three man midfield so not sure what you on about it wouldn't work.
Wasn't a success in the end at that tournament but arguably the best we've looked under Southgate and an unfortunate loss to France, miles better than what we saw in the Euros jus gone.
SkyBlue_Bear83
Well-Known Member
Go watch goals 1 and 2 of England v Senegal in the World Cup, it's play like that that made Bellingham one of the best young players in the world and earned his move to Real Madrid. Not pratting about 20 yards away from goal, receiving the ball in tight areas and trying to do something spectacular every time he receives the ball.
He has a great engine and physicality to dominate the midfield battles and you actually lose some of the best parts of his game by trying to pigeon hole him as a 10 or false nine.
I reckon if a young Gerrard game came though in the modern game he'd be ruined by everyone trying to tell him he's got to be a number 10.
He has a great engine and physicality to dominate the midfield battles and you actually lose some of the best parts of his game by trying to pigeon hole him as a 10 or false nine.
I reckon if a young Gerrard game came though in the modern game he'd be ruined by everyone trying to tell him he's got to be a number 10.
Mucca Mad Boys
Well-Known Member
Does Anthony Gordon not have that profile? He’s obviously not to the standard Vini.
We tried something new and it didn’t pay off, it’s not too dissimilar to what other great teams have done before like Man City (Foden and KDB being false 9s) and Real Madrid with Bellingham. Or even some of the Spain teams in 2014 to 2020 on the international stage.
It didn’t work and highly doubt we’ll try this again. Imagine if it did work and we blew Greece away, we’d be talking about that line up being one to go into the 2026 World Cup and/or 2028 Euros.
Watkins and Solanke are good players but neither are amazing strikers that you would be confident in leading us to a major trophy. Both players are 27 and 28 so not exactly the future either.
I spoke to a few people before the game and everyone was excited at the prospect of having such an attacking line up - ‘I’d have like it had we done this at the Euros’ was said too. Hindsight is 20:20 and on this occasion, the result was a disaster. It was not enjoyable skipping my judo session to watch Greece put the ball in the net 5 times and another cleared off the line!
Otis
Well-Known Member
"Everyone was excited at the prospect of having such an attacking line-up?"Does Anthony Gordon not have that profile? He’s obviously not to the standard Vini.
We tried something new and it didn’t pay off, it’s not too dissimilar to what other great teams have done before like Man City (Foden and KDB being false 9s) and Real Madrid with Bellingham. Or even some of the Spain teams in 2014 to 2020 on the international stage.
It didn’t work and highly doubt we’ll try this again. Imagine if it did work and we blew Greece away, we’d be talking about that line up being one to go into the 2026 World Cup and/or 2028 Euros.
Watkins and Solanke are good players but neither are amazing strikers that you would be confident in leading us to a major trophy. Both players are 27 and 28 so not exactly the future either.
I spoke to a few people before the game and everyone was excited at the prospect of having such an attacking line up - ‘I’d have like it had we done this at the Euros’ was said too. Hindsight is 20:20 and on this occasion, the result was a disaster. It was not enjoyable skipping my judo session to watch Greece put the ball in the net 5 times and another cleared off the line!
We must move in different circles.
Looked completely disjointed to me and a complete overload on attacking midfielders.
When I saw the lineup, my first thought was "what the hell!"
Mucca Mad Boys
Well-Known Member
We played 4-2-3-1 in every game and Bellingham was a 10.
Bellingham at CM in a 4-3-3 should work, but who plays with them? There needs to be an anchor to let those players operate which leads to one of Mainoo or Angel Gomes - both of whom did well v ROI and Finaland. Who then is dropped out of Palmer, Foden, Gordon and Saka? All top players and it’s not easy to fit them in and Kane.
Mucca Mad Boys
Well-Known Member
What would your team be for Sunday Otis?"Everyone was excited at the prospect of having such an attacking line-up?"
We must move in different circles.
Looked completely disjointed to me and a complete overload on attacking midfielders.
When I saw the lineup, my first thought was "what the hell!"
SkyBlue_Bear83
Well-Known Member
Bellingham was definitely not a number 10, Rice was an anchor and it was Mount/Henderson and Bellingham playing as two box to box to midfielders in a midfield 3.
Go look at the goals I mentioned v Senegal and you will see they came from Bellingham starting from central midfield and breaking forward.
Otis
Well-Known Member
Depends on who's fit
Is Mainoo now out of the picture completely, or was he just missing for last night?
I would drop Foden, for one, and I am a huge fan of his, but it's just not working out right now at England level.
Is Kane fit now? I am not very sure on who's fit or available.
Even though I thought he had a poor game, I think I would give Palmer another chance. I would look for Saka or Gordon to make way.
I wouldn't play Lewis either. I think he struggled at times last night.
Mucca Mad Boys
Well-Known Member
You are probably right actually - 2022 was his breakthrough and then started to play further forward for England. The original point is that Bellingham has not played with Rice together in a midfield two to great affect so the midfield needs someone like Mainoo or Gomes besides Rice to allow Foden/Bellingham to play in there.
The only issue is that one of our stars is going to find their minutes cut and it's a difficult conundrum to solve.
Mainoo pulled out the squad and Kane is supposed to be fit for Sunday.
I agree the team was too unbalanced but it's an experiment worth having.
The midfield was obviously a problem because you had Rice as an anchor with Palmer and Foden. No one was in a natural role here. This weakness was compounded by the defence too, Trent and Lewis playing and being really high up was too attacking - you needed either Walker or Colwill to play RB/LB to give a flat 3 in possession. We needed someone to spearhead the attack.
Personally, for Finland I’d like to see something like:
Pickford
Walker Stones Guehi Trent
Rice Gomes Bellingham
Palmer Kane Foden
Some selections take rotation into account and the team probably lacks runners so Gordon for Palmer/Foden.
I think don’t think it’s wise to give up on getting 3 of Bellingham-Palmer-Foden-Saka in the same team yet. This 2024-2026 cycle we need really figure out how to get Foden/Palmer and Bellingham in the same team and playing well. It will require a lot of experimentation.
stupot07
Well-Known Member
Problem is Foden will drift inside, Trent will have his free role and spent most of the game playing centre midfield and we will have nothing on the left at all. At least on the right when Palmer drifts in Walker will overlap. You can't play inverted wingers and inverted full backs.
Mucca Mad Boys
Well-Known Member
Taking Carsley’s principles from the U21s, that’s fine because it’s designed to attack space which we did to great affect in the 2 prior games.
The problems we have will require creative solutions and Carsley is right when he said we have to open to putting players in different positions.
If we went with that lineup I’d expect Walker to function similarly to how he does when we play 3-4-3.
Without a standout LB likely to emerge between now and 2026, the future England backline will look something like:
Trent-Stones-Guehi-Colwill
That allows us to have a natural 3-2-5 shape in possession that is in fashion atm.
stupot07
Well-Known Member
Yeah it will be fine we're playing teams ranked 62 and 64 in the world. We'd get hammered against a decent side. You need width, you need to make the pitch as big as possible to create space, look at Spain, Yamal and Williams virtually hug the touchline, when they do drift in the fullbacks produce the width.
Mucca Mad Boys
Well-Known Member
Both of Spain’s wingers you mentioned also invert because they both play on the opposite side of the dominant foot.
Yesterday we just didn’t have a focal point upfront and it was far too easy for Greece to counter attack when we lost the ball as we decided to play 3 defensively minded players.
The game has been and gone now so what’s important is that the team take the disappointment and
There’s only so many international games between now and 2026 World Cup to test out a best team and tactical style. If you experiment, you run the risk of getting caught with your pants down which happened last night. It would’ve been easier for Carsley to coast through the Nations League making no changes to Southgate’s status quo and getting the job that way.
He got it fundamentally wrong last night and it’s up to him to right those wrongs if he still wants the job.
Ian1779
Well-Known Member
Watkins scored the winner after 3 mins of being on in the Euro Semi-Final. What is not to like about him?
Mucca Mad Boys
Well-Known Member
His performances in qualification weren’t great.
I like Watkins and that moment in the Euros was one of the best footballing moments I’ve experienced at a game. That said, I don’t think he’ll ever be a first choice because he’s not young enough to be a Kane successor per se. It wasn’t inherently a terrible idea to play with a false 9 because both Foden and Bellingham have done it for their clubs. On this occasion, it just didn’t work. We ended the match playing 4-4-2 and Watkins missed a good opportunity.
This is an interesting video for anyone who fancies it - the author is very much pro-Carsley as a disclaimer.
Otis
Well-Known Member
Very good breakdown of how the game was planned out and it all went wrong.
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alexccfc99
Well-Known Member
Thomas Tuchel 'in talks to become next England manager'
He has been touted as a potential replacement for Erik ten Hag at Manchester United during that time but reportd in Germany claim he's now edging towards the England job.
Please...