Southport Stabbing (24 Viewers)

[rob9872]

Ok simple then
Why did the government release no information about the person but allowed the press a picture when he was an 11 year old boy and told the press to publish that he used to sing in the choir ?

OK simple then.

Because they were worried, with good reason, about reprisals. Unfortunately they went so far in the opposite direction that they made themselves look silly and it had the reverse effect. There was that photo, he wasn't muslim, he sang in a choir, he was Welsh, we didnt know about him, he didnt arrive illegally and so it went on.

 

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[Sky Blue Pete]

Again a Prevent referral does not out someone on the governments radar. They are assessed and then go to Channel panel and even then might just have a local intervention.

Only 9% of referrals are adopted at Channrl panel. Here’s the stats:

Individuals referred to and supported through the Prevent Programme, April 2022 to March 2023

www.gov.uk

So it was starmer and coopers fault ah gotya moment for the government

 

[Nick]

It’s probably a good thing that most are known to the authorities
It means our police and security services do an amazing job
Suppose we could pretend that the tories and tax reducing reform will increase the police and security numbers and spending and it will be better
I’m very happy we can focus on what went wrong with the prevent process and the risk management to end up with this horrific attack
That’s a sensible question
It’s not where reform musk and the reform voters are at

Why are you going on about bringing down Starmer and now Musk and reform voters when nobody is actually saying anything about them in this conversation?

I don't think anybody is saying somebody said "Oh Axel is going out today to kill people, let's sit back and see what kicks off". It's more that when it happened there were plenty who knew him, went to school with him and said what he was really like but the image of him chosen was that he was a young BBC star, Welsh, Choirboy etc.

Can you not see why it will have pissed people off?

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

OK simple then.

Because they were worried, with good reason, about reprisals. Unfortunately they went so far in the opposite direction that they made themselves look silly and it had the reverse effect. There was that photo, he wasn't muslim, he sang in a choir, he was Welsh, we didnt know about him, he didnt arrive illegally and so it went on.

So which of that is false and this is the nub and this is already further than any Twitter discussion I’ve had so thank you and it’s really useful

photo was accurate it was just not recent - who released it? Government????
I didn’t see anything saying he wasn’t a Muslim it just wasn’t Muslim attacks kids but you think it would have helped if this info was known to have said we believe he’s a Muslim convert from a Christian home? I think I can agree with that. That would have been useful if it was known
He did sing in a choir
He was welsh
He didn’t arrive illegally he was born in wales

 

[Nick]

OK simple then.

Because they were worried, with good reason, about reprisals. Unfortunately they went so far in the opposite direction that they made themselves look silly and it had the reverse effect. There was that photo, he wasn't muslim, he sang in a choir, he was Welsh, we didnt know about him, he didnt arrive illegally and so it went on.

When in reality, they knew all about him and would have known everything about him within minutes of it happening (if not sooner).

Obviously they aren't going to release everything while things are being investigated but they knew full well how different the image of him that was being pushed was completely different to the person who had committed the crime.

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

Why are you going on about bringing down Starmer and now Musk and reform voters when nobody is actually saying anything about them in this conversation?

I don't think anybody is saying somebody said "Oh Axel is going out today to kill people, let's sit back and see what kicks off". It's more that when it happened there were plenty who knew him, went to school with him and said what he was really like but the image of him chosen was that he was a young BBC star, Welsh, Choirboy etc.

Can you not see why it will have pissed people off?

Yes
But you and Rob are saying this was what the government chose?
also actually Rob has suggested why and actually if that was the case it’s not bad but I’d have stuck with the truth as we know it
He also didn’t add his family were helped to stay by starmer and his dad was a war lord and wanted for genocide in Rwanda

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

When in reality, they knew all about him and would have known everything about him within minutes of it happening (if not sooner).

Obviously they aren't going to release everything while things are being investigated but they knew full well how different the image of him that was being pushed was completely different to the person who had committed the crime.

Can you share government statements that were misleading?
does anyone say he’s not a muslim
I remember the debates on here.

 

[Nick]

So which of that is false and this is the nub and this is already further than any Twitter discussion I’ve had so thank you and it’s really useful

photo was accurate it was just not recent - who released it? Government????
I didn’t see anything saying he wasn’t a Muslim it just wasn’t Muslim attacks kids but you think it would have helped if this info was known to have said we believe he’s a Muslim convert from a Christian home? I think I can agree with that. That would have been useful if it was known
He did sing in a choir
He was welsh
He didn’t arrive illegally he was born in wales

I'm not sure if you can try any harder to miss his point.

He had Ricin, he was obsessed with mass killings, he was taking knives into school, he attacked people with a hockey stick, and people who dealt with him wanted police to be present. He was being named on social media and things like this were being said but it was labelled "misinformation" :



I'm sure most killers did some nice things when they were little kids but I'm not sure it's that relevant if we found out that Ian Huntley once starred in his nativity or if Peter Sutcliffe was close to his nan.

It's also being said that he did want to go to a high school a week earlier but his dad talked him out of it, what did his dad know?

 

[Nick]

Can you share government statements that were misleading?
does anyone say he’s not a muslim
I remember the debates on here.

So you really can't see the picture that was painted of him compared to the reality?

 

[shmmeee]

So it was starmer and coopers fault ah gotya moment for the government

2015 Counter Terrorism and Security Act.

Sorry I mean it was the lizard people controlling the media.

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

I'm not sure if you can try any harder to miss his point.

He had Ricin, he was obsessed with mass killings, he was taking knives into school, he attacked people with a hockey stick, and people who dealt with him wanted police to be present.

I'm sure most killers did some nice things when they were little kids but I'm not sure it's that relevant if we found out that Ian Huntley once starred in his nativity or if Peter Sutcliffe was close to his nan.

It's also being said that he did want to go to a high school a week earlier but his dad talked him out of it, what did his dad know?

Sorry what is the point I am missing
Is it again that he should have been stopped before committing the crime?
or that the government should have shared the information as soon as they had it to inflame sensitivities and chances of a riot or are you agreeing it was sensible to try and avoid it or something else

 

[rob9872]

So which of that is false and this is the nub and this is already further than any Twitter discussion I’ve had so thank you and it’s really useful

photo was accurate it was just not recent - who released it? Government????
I didn’t see anything saying he wasn’t a Muslim it just wasn’t Muslim attacks kids but you think it would have helped if this info was known to have said we believe he’s a Muslim convert from a Christian home? I think I can agree with that. That would have been useful if it was known
He did sing in a choir
He was welsh
He didn’t arrive illegally he was born in wales

It was more that that they were so desperate to spread that narrative. I'm sure you will have read about his parents and the Starmer link, he wasn't a Christian. I also know that a lot of people I know who are UK to born to eg Indian heritage, refer to themselves as British Indian rather than British or Indian, he was listed as only Welsh. It's not so much wrong as trying to sell a story and they were clearly trying too hard, bearing in mind the atrocities that he'd just carried out.

 

[shmmeee]

It was more that that they were so desperate to spread that narrative. I'm sure you will have read about his parents and the Starmer link, he wasn't a Christian. I also know that a lot of people I know who are UK to born to eg Indian heritage, refer to themselves as British Indian rather than British or Indian, he was listed as only Welsh. It's not so much wrong as trying to sell a story and they were clearly trying too hard, bearing in mind the atrocities that he'd just carried out.

Who is “they” in your first sentence?

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

So you really can't see the picture that was painted of him compared to the reality?

Where do you start
Hideous murder takes place
Police arrest the killer
Charge him with murder and investigate
Social media goes mental with misinformation some of which happens to be accurate not because it was known to be but because there’s an m o
I think that’s ok to say
Now Rob’s suggestion then makes perfect sense and it’s in the delivery the mistakes happened but they were defending things at that point
You would look to minimise tensions wouldn’t you?
Are you suggesting that the sun express and mail were in the governments pocket!

 

[Nick]

Sorry what is the point I am missing
Is it again that he should have been stopped before committing the crime?
or that the government should have shared the information as soon as they had it to inflame sensitivities and chances of a riot or are you agreeing it was sensible to try and avoid it or something else

The point is they didn't try and avoid it, it was all in on the choirboy rhetoric. Now I will mention Starmer, what he did was inflame the situation even more by coming out called everybody right wing if they disagreed or had concerns. He pouted fuel all over it and if anything, drove people towards the people making Telegram groups. Starmer would have known everything at that time as well.

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

It was more that that they were so desperate to spread that narrative. I'm sure you will have read about his parents and the Starmer link, he wasn't a Christian. I also know that a lot of people I know who are UK to born to eg Indian heritage, refer to themselves as British Indian rather than British or Indian, he was listed as only Welsh. It's not so much wrong as trying to sell a story and they were clearly trying too hard, bearing in mind the atrocities that he'd just carried out.

Who was trying to sell a story? The police and security and the government?

I think I agree with you that the subsequent government public announcements were about seeking to reduce tension but because truth was lacking and because some social media parties were looking to take advantage this backfired significantly

 

[Nick]

Where do you start
Hideous murder takes place
Police arrest the killer
Charge him with murder and investigate
Social media goes mental with misinformation some of which happens to be accurate not because it was known to be but because there’s an m o
I think that’s ok to say
Now Rob’s suggestion then makes perfect sense and it’s in the delivery the mistakes happened but they were defending things at that point
You would look to minimise tensions wouldn’t you?
Are you suggesting that the sun express and mail were in the governments pocket!

How did it work out with minimising tensions?

It turns out that a fair bit of the "misinformation" that was being said was actually true, of course there was a lot of nonsense also being said but the core points were actually true.

I have posted a screenshot of what was played down at the time, which turns out is actually true.

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

The point is they didn't try and avoid it, it was all in on the choirboy rhetoric. Now I will mention Starmer, what he did was inflame the situation even more by coming out called everybody right wing if they disagreed or had concerns. He pouted fuel all over it and if anything, drove people towards the people making Telegram groups. Starmer would have known everything at that time as well.

The press gave the choir boy line
What would you want a responsible government to come out and say??
Both of us would probably need to listen to the announcement as I’m pretty sure he didn’t say anyone who disagrees or has concerns is far right I think it was those who were seeking to act violently or encourage violence were far right but I’m not certain

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

How did it work out with minimising tensions?

It turns out that a fair bit of the "misinformation" that was being said was actually true, of course there was a lot of nonsense also being said but the core points were actually true.

I have posted a screenshot of what was played down at the time, which turns out is actually true.

On here today or before?
I think it’s important to be specific about stuff and recognise the nuance

 

[Nick]

On here today or before?
I think it’s important to be specific about stuff and recognise the nuance

Specific about what? I don't think you can get as specific as somebody saying "He was in my class, he was expelled for bringing in a knife to school".

Yeah, it could have been fake. It turns out that it's much closer to the reality of things than him being a Welsh Choirboy called Gethin.

 

[shmmeee]

Good thread on the misconceptions on Prevent (by a Tory if that helps you digest it)

Sunder Katwala (sundersays) (@sundersays.bsky.social)

Prevent references in 2019 (aged 13) + 2021 (aged 15). The news reports suggest was deemed to have a fascination with violence but not an extreme ideology. Prevent is a voluntary deradicalisation programme (on extreme ideologies that could lead to terrorism)...

bsky.app

 

[shmmeee]

The press gave the choir boy line
What would you want a responsible government to come out and say??
Both of us would probably need to listen to the announcement as I’m pretty sure he didn’t say anyone who disagrees or has concerns is far right I think it was those who were seeking to act violently or encourage violence were far right but I’m not certain

It’s standard tabloid fare “Oh look at this angel turned devil - what could possibly have happened”. They do it with everyone.

 

[Grendel]

Where do you start
Hideous murder takes place
Police arrest the killer
Charge him with murder and investigate
Social media goes mental with misinformation some of which happens to be accurate not because it was known to be but because there’s an m o
I think that’s ok to say
Now Rob’s suggestion then makes perfect sense and it’s in the delivery the mistakes happened but they were defending things at that point
You would look to minimise tensions wouldn’t you?
Are you suggesting that the sun express and mail were in the governments pocket!

You are sounding as deranged as Schmeee

 

[Nick]

They do it with everyone.

Do they?

Damn I missed seeing Harold Shipman doing keepups with his U7's team.

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

Specific about what? I don't think you can get as specific as somebody saying "He was in my class, he was expelled for bringing in a knife to school".

Yeah, it could have been fake. It turns out that it's much closer to the reality of things than him being a Welsh Choirboy called Gethin.

Sorry the document you shared on here

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

You are sounding as deranged as Schmeee

Thank you

 

[Nick]

Sorry the document you shared on here

It was a post that was around at the time it happened that was widely labelled as misinformation.

There were a fair few at the time who said they knew him / of him and what he was like.

 

[shmmeee]

Do they?

Damn I missed seeing Harold Shipman doing keepups with his U7's team.

Happy to help

Inside the mind of Britain's most prolific serial killer - 20 years on

Two decades have passed since Shipman killed himself, but disturbing questions remain about the case and about how the medical profession deals with misconduct or even criminality by its members.

www.dailymail.co.uk

 

[Grendel]

Thank you

I don't understand what point you are trying to make.

He was clearly a dangerous and disturbed individual. Misinformation occurs when the actual facts are suppressed.

 

[Gynnsthetonic]

Investigate them, give them a course on not being a terrorist. It doesn’t mean you get your own personal spook 24/7

A course will they get tea and biscuits same as the speed awareness one and key ring to say I'm no longer a terrorist

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

You are sounding as deranged as Schmeee

I don't understand what point you are trying to make.

He was clearly a dangerous and disturbed individual. Misinformation occurs when the actual facts are suppressed.

What misinformation grendel?
Or is it omission?

 

[shmmeee]

A course will they get tea and biscuits same as the speed awareness one and key ring to say I'm no longer a terrorist

It’s literally a voluntary course. Thats what Prevent is. Im so bored of repeating myself.

 

[Gynnsthetonic]

It’s literally a voluntary course. Thats what Prevent is. Im so bored of repeating myself.

How many potential murderers and terrorists will volunteer I wonder?

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

so one of the dads who kid was there had posted this.
View attachment 37164

assume he’s a c**t aswell then?

This one Nick?

 

[shmmeee]

How many potential murderers and terrorists will volunteer I wonder?

Well quite.

The problem here is lone wolf attackers radicalising themselves on YouTube on their toilet are very hard to spot. And 99% of people who sound like nutters aren’t nutters they’ve just spent too long on social media *cough* half this forum *cough*.

Pursue, the part of the CONTEST anti terrorist strategy after Prevent is about actually stopping attacks and relies on informants and old fashioned undercover work, which obviously don’t apply to lone wolf attacks.

But that’s not as fun as pretending you’re waging a one man war against the forces of evil so whatever I guess.