Do you want to discuss boring politics? (23 Viewers)

[MalcSB]

I had to go and look at some datasets

Median population growth 1945 - 2023 is 0.41% per year

Median population growth projected from 2023 to 2047 is 0.41% per year

What an amazing coincidence. Projection based on previous growth shows the same growth.

Of course, 0,41% of current population is a lot more people that 0.41% of 1945 population.

 

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[Earlsdon_Skyblue1]

You could give me maybe one specific example? I promise I'm not playing dumb!

Take the Benidorm example and layer it on the UK. Full of Lineker's bar type places. Places to grab a full English etc. In the UK we have more Polskie Sklepy, Turkish Barbers, Curry houses. You hear less English being spoken in the street (in Benidorm you hear more English being spoken in the street) in general. I'm not suggesting these are all bad, but I've been away for some time now, and the difference is clear to me.

 

[MalcSB]

Take the Benidorm example and layer it on the UK. Full of Lineker's bar type places. Places to grab a full English etc. In the UK we have more Polskie Sklepy, Turkish Barbers, Curry houses. You hear less English being spoken in the street (in Benidorm you hear more English being spoken in the street) in general. I'm not suggesting these are all bad, but I've been away for some time now, and the difference is clear to me.

We noticed a significant change in demographics when we came back after two years in France. As well as reduced compliance with traffic light regulations.

 

[SBT]

Take the Benidorm example and layer it on the UK. Full of Lineker's bar type places. Places to grab a full English etc. In the UK we have more Polskie Sklepy, Turkish Barbers, Curry houses. You hear less English being spoken in the street (in Benidorm you hear more English being spoken in the street) in general. I'm not suggesting these are all bad, but I've been away for some time now, and the difference is clear to me.

I don't really see it as the erasure of British culture though (anymore than Benidorm can be said to have erased Spanish culture). These enclaves for foreigners have always existed, they serve a certain purpose for small groups (usually visitors and first generation immigrants), but they don't represent a genuine attempt to supplant the native culture. Immigrants and (especially) their children generally realise there is more long-term prosperity to be had by venturing outside their enclaves, learning the local language and assimilating, bringing some elements of their culture with them and leaving others behind. And it's the people of the host nation that generally decide which elements are which.

 

[MalcSB]

I don't really see it as the erasure of British culture though (anymore than Benidorm can be said to have erased Spanish culture). These enclaves for foreigners have always existed, they serve a certain purpose for small groups (usually visitors and first generation immigrants), but they don't represent a genuine attempt to supplant the native culture. Immigrants and (especially) their children generally realise there is more long-term prosperity to be had by venturing outside their enclaves, learning the local language and assimilating, bringing some elements of their culture with them and leaving others behind. And it's the people of the host nation that generally decide which elements are which.

NHS spends a fortune on interpreters so the learning the local language isn’t going all that well I’m afraid. I thought it mildly amusing that 89 trusts pay for translation services in French. In France, you want an interpreter you pay for one yourself. UHCW spent £1,344,014.49 in the three financial years starting in 2019 and ending 2022. The NHS as a whole is estimated to have spent £174,228,629 over the same period. That is a lot of money.

There has been much wailing and gnashing of teeth in respect of insufficient funding of services. Whilst sums such as this wouldn’t bridge the entire gap, they would make some contribution to it.

in terms of bringing elements of cultures, Im not entirely convinced that the host nation decide which elements are which. The general public might say we aren’t all that keen on arranged marriages or honour killings, but that doesn’t necessarily stop them happening. I’m trying to imagine what would happen if the building of a mosque or Gurdwara were opposed. Labours new planning regime will presumably make such opposition more difficult and even less likely to succeed, so I won’t waste too much time imagining.

If people from the 1950”s arrived today, they would be astonished at the cultural changes. The mosques, Gurdwaras, Leamington’s Happy Diwali lights ( I havent seen a happy Christmas light there for years. - if they do have then up at some point I would be impressed and somewhat mollfied.

So, @SBT a nice argument which is more hypothetical than in operation.

 

[dadgad]

Social disparities have never been higher and the gulf between rich and poor getting wider. Fascists like Farage and Trump will target immigration in order to protect billionaires. It ain’t difficult.
Things will continue to get worse all the while people scapegoat people who have nothing whilst non dom tax evaders milk us dry.

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

NHS spends a fortune on interpreters so the learning the local language isn’t going all that well I’m afraid. I thought it mildly amusing that 89 trusts pay for translation services in French. In France, you want an interpreter you pay for one yourself. UHCW spent £1,344,014.49 in the three financial years starting in 2019 and ending 2022. The NHS as a whole is estimated to have spent £174,228,629 over the same period. That is a lot of money.

There has been much wailing and gnashing of teeth in respect of insufficient funding of services. Whilst sums such as this wouldn’t bridge the entire gap, they would make some contribution to it.

in terms of bringing elements of cultures, Im not entirely convinced that the host nation decide which elements are which. The general public might say we aren’t all that keen on arranged marriages or honour killings, but that doesn’t necessarily stop them happening. I’m trying to imagine what would happen if the building of a mosque or Gurdwara were opposed. Labours new planning regime will presumably make such opposition more difficult and even less likely to succeed, so I won’t waste too much time imagining.

If people from the 1950”s arrived today, they would be astonished at the cultural changes. The mosques, Gurdwaras, Leamington’s Happy Diwali lights ( I havent seen a happy Christmas light there for years. - if they do have then up at some point I would be impressed and somewhat mollfied.

So, @SBT a nice argument which is more hypothetical than in operation.

And that’s just so people can understand the doctors . I jest
I do feel that this is a nice to have and over a year or so you could try and make sure that people knew if they couldn’t understand English they would need to bring a family member

 

[shmmeee]

NHS spends a fortune on interpreters so the learning the local language isn’t going all that well I’m afraid. I thought it mildly amusing that 89 trusts pay for translation services in French. In France, you want an interpreter you pay for one yourself. UHCW spent £1,344,014.49 in the three financial years starting in 2019 and ending 2022. The NHS as a whole is estimated to have spent £174,228,629 over the same period. That is a lot of money.

There has been much wailing and gnashing of teeth in respect of insufficient funding of services. Whilst sums such as this wouldn’t bridge the entire gap, they would make some contribution to it.

in terms of bringing elements of cultures, Im not entirely convinced that the host nation decide which elements are which. The general public might say we aren’t all that keen on arranged marriages or honour killings, but that doesn’t necessarily stop them happening. I’m trying to imagine what would happen if the building of a mosque or Gurdwara were opposed. Labours new planning regime will presumably make such opposition more difficult and even less likely to succeed, so I won’t waste too much time imagining.

If people from the 1950”s arrived today, they would be astonished at the cultural changes. The mosques, Gurdwaras, Leamington’s Happy Diwali lights ( I havent seen a happy Christmas light there for years. - if they do have then up at some point I would be impressed and somewhat mollfied.

So, @SBT a nice argument which is more hypothetical than in operation.

£43m/year, if your figures are correct, is a tiny amount of money. We spent 1.2tn a year and £181bn a year on the NHS alone. Probably far less than the wage cost of extra hours spent on patients misunderstanding staff. You’re often conveying complex medical terms that need to be precisely understood and are often beyond conversational English.

Stopping funding interpreters doesn’t stop people without perfect English existing.

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

£43m/year, if your figures are correct, is a tiny amount of money. We spent 1.2tn a year and £181bn a year on the NHS alone. Probably far less than the wage cost of extra hours spent on patients misunderstanding staff. You’re often conveying complex medical terms that need to be precisely understood and are often beyond conversational English.

Stopping funding interpreters doesn’t stop people without perfect English existing.

Yep like many of our school friends

 

[shmmeee]

Yep like many of our school friends

The nice thing about schools is non English speaking parents usually come with an English speaking translator (their kid). I can remember one kid who I taught in ten years who couldn’t understand English. That was a German girl who for six months said she needed her mate to translate for her. Then we found out for at least three months she’d been fully fluent and just pretending to get out of classwork

 

[SBT]

NHS spends a fortune on interpreters so the learning the local language isn’t going all that well I’m afraid. I thought it mildly amusing that 89 trusts pay for translation services in French. In France, you want an interpreter you pay for one yourself. UHCW spent £1,344,014.49 in the three financial years starting in 2019 and ending 2022. The NHS as a whole is estimated to have spent £174,228,629 over the same period. That is a lot of money.

There has been much wailing and gnashing of teeth in respect of insufficient funding of services. Whilst sums such as this wouldn’t bridge the entire gap, they would make some contribution to it.

in terms of bringing elements of cultures, Im not entirely convinced that the host nation decide which elements are which. The general public might say we aren’t all that keen on arranged marriages or honour killings, but that doesn’t necessarily stop them happening. I’m trying to imagine what would happen if the building of a mosque or Gurdwara were opposed. Labours new planning regime will presumably make such opposition more difficult and even less likely to succeed, so I won’t waste too much time imagining.

If people from the 1950”s arrived today, they would be astonished at the cultural changes. The mosques, Gurdwaras, Leamington’s Happy Diwali lights ( I havent seen a happy Christmas light there for years. - if they do have then up at some point I would be impressed and somewhat mollfied.

So, @SBT a nice argument which is more hypothetical than in operation.

Personally I support measures that help people get the level of healthcare they’re entitled to; I assume you disagree. But when talking about its impact on British culture - how does the existence of NHS interpreters contribute to the erasure of British culture?

You cite the example of 1950s Britain - that was 75 years ago. 1950s Britain was also “astonishing” to someone from the 1870s, which was “astonishing” to someone from 1795 etc etc. I know the rate of change is accelerating, and you and I would no doubt be astonished at what passes for British culture in 2100, but that’s how culture works isn’t it?

 

[MalcSB]

Personally I support measures that help people get the level of healthcare they’re entitled to; I assume you disagree. But when talking about its impact on British culture - how does the existence of NHS interpreters contribute to the erasure of British culture?

You cite the example of 1950s Britain - that was 75 years ago. 1950s Britain was also “astonishing” to someone from the 1870s, which was “astonishing” to someone from 1795 etc etc. I know the rate of change is accelerating, and you and I would no doubt be astonished at what passes for British culture in 2100, but that’s how culture works isn’t it?

And that’s just so people can understand the doctors . I jest
I do feel that this is a nice to have and over a year or so you could try and make sure that people knew if they couldn’t understand English they would need to bring a family member

There are lots of things that are nice to haves. Can they be justified at over £115,000,000 per annum across the NHS?

It should’t take a year to get people that can’t speak English to bring someone with them. Just include that on the appointment letter.

£43m/year, if your figures are correct, is a tiny amount of money. We spent 1.2tn a year and £181bn a year on the NHS alone. Probably far less than the wage cost of extra hours spent on patients misunderstanding staff. You’re often conveying complex medical terms that need to be precisely understood and are often beyond conversational English.

Stopping funding interpreters doesn’t stop people without perfect English existing.

I’m really not sure how you have done that maths. £43m a year for 3 years is £129m, not £174m. Annually it is £58m.

The amount spent on interpreters would fund approximately 12,000 hip replacements.

 

[MalcSB]

Personally I support measures that help people get the level of healthcare they’re entitled to; I assume you disagree. But when talking about its impact on British culture - how does the existence of NHS interpreters contribute to the erasure of British culture?

You cite the example of 1950s Britain - that was 75 years ago. 1950s Britain was also “astonishing” to someone from the 1870s, which was “astonishing” to someone from 1795 etc etc. I know the rate of change is accelerating, and you and I would no doubt be astonished at what passes for British culture in 2100, but that’s how culture works isn’t it?

The points you were making about assimilation included learning the language. If you were correct, why the need for the NHS to pay for interpreter services?

You are wrong, and also wrong about elements of culture brought to this country generally being decided by the people of the host nation. Certain politicians chasing votes maybe, but that isn’t “ the people of the host nation”.

 

[MalcSB]

That Saul Stainforth bloke seems to be utterly consumed by Starmer and the Labour Party.

Is it any wonder?

 

[MalcSB]

There is no population plan. Every country is trying including a lot of quite authoritarian ones trying things Brits wouldn’t be comfortable with. As income goes up the opportunity cost of children goes up with it and people have fewer kids. It’s happening everywhere peoples incomes have gone up across the board. Short of returning to mass poverty there’s nothing that can force people to have kids they don’t want because it’ll harm their careers.

I’m shocked! People’s incomes have increased! Surely not during 14 years of Tory misrule.

 

[shmmeee]

There are lots of things that are nice to haves. Can they be justified at over £115,000,000 per annum across the NHS?

It should’t take a year to get people that can’t speak English to bring someone with them. Just include that on the appointment letter.

I’m really not sure how you have done that maths. £43m a year for 3 years is £129m, not £174m. Annually it is £58m.

The amount spent on interpreters would fund approximately 12,000 hip replacements.

Look id just woken up allow me some bad mental maths

 

[shmmeee]

I’m shocked! People’s incomes have increased! Surely not during 14 years of Tory misrule.

The birth rate didn’t start dropping under the Tories. We’re actually doing better than a lot of western nations I believe but it’s been a while since I checked the stats.

 

[MalcSB]

Personally I support measures that help people get the level of healthcare they’re entitled to; I assume you disagree. But when talking about its impact on British culture - how does the existence of NHS interpreters contribute to the erasure of British culture?

You cite the example of 1950s Britain - that was 75 years ago. 1950s Britain was also “astonishing” to someone from the 1870s, which was “astonishing” to someone from 1795 etc etc. I know the rate of change is accelerating, and you and I would no doubt be astonished at what passes for British culture in 2100, but that’s how culture works isn’t it?

The rate of change is accelerating. Isn’t that a major part of the problem ? The pace is getting beyond what some people are comfortable with.

I take your points about previous eras. I should have said 1990s rather than 1950s. If you showed someone from the 50s a modern film using cgi for the gory bits, they would be terrified on the basis that the camera never lies. Except for var at Wembley, obviously.

 

[MalcSB]

Look id just woken up allow me some bad mental maths

To be fair shmmeee, I have been as guilty of that as anyone

 

[shmmeee]

I do think having English as the world language is a double edged sword here. Firstly it means here is going to be first choice for a lot of immigrants who couldn’t get to America or Australia (so most immigrants), but it also means most people speak our language. My GFs parents get really annoyed at people who live in the Netherlands and don’t speak Dutch at all because they can get by on English alone. At least most people across the world speak some level of English thanks to the yanks cultural domination. Even other languages (not French) randomly insert English words in (see Japanese media for example). Speaking English is seen by youths across the world as a gateway to global culture. So we could be a non English speaking country having immigrants speaking two languages ahead of ours.

 

[PVA]

NHS spends a fortune on interpreters so the learning the local language isn’t going all that well I’m afraid. I thought it mildly amusing that 89 trusts pay for translation services in French. In France, you want an interpreter you pay for one yourself. UHCW spent £1,344,014.49 in the three financial years starting in 2019 and ending 2022. The NHS as a whole is estimated to have spent £174,228,629 over the same period. That is a lot of money.

So £175m to help thousands of sick people = bad use of money

£300m to send four people to Rwanda = good use of money


Is that where we're at?

 

[chiefdave]

There's something rather humorous about people complaining about there being too many foreigners in the country. A thing they have noticed when returning from living in another country

 

[SBT]

The points you were making about assimilation included learning the language. If you were correct, why the need for the NHS to pay for interpreter services?

You are wrong, and also wrong about elements of culture brought to this country generally being decided by the people of the host nation. Certain politicians chasing votes maybe, but that isn’t “ the people of the host nation”.

You pay for interpreters to encourage people to access the health care they’re entitled to (I’d argue an immigrant’s good health will help them integrate too). As I said, any immigrant will soon realise that their earnings potential/mating potential/education potential will increase exponentially if they learn the language and assimilate etc (which may be why you see so many hard-working second generation kids).

And of course the host nation generally gets to decide. Why do you think Bangladeshi food is more popular here than Bangladeshi music? Or Italian fashion more popular than Italian Catholicism? For the same reasons listed above re: language.

 

[chiefdave]

Social disparities have never been higher and the gulf between rich and poor getting wider. Fascists like Farage and Trump will target immigration in order to protect billionaires. It ain’t difficult.
Things will continue to get worse all the while people scapegoat people who have nothing whilst non dom tax evaders milk us dry.

There was a documentary about immigration recently on the BBC. Interestingly they head ex-PMs and people like Farage all quite openly admitting that they didn't find immigration an issue but an easy way to get votes.

They had people saying that in public members of the government would be enthusiastic about limiting immigration and settings targets but the second the cameras were off they would be lobbying for exemptions because they knew whatever section of government they were involved in would be fucked without immigrants.

 

[shmmeee]

You pay for interpreters to encourage people to access the health care they’re entitled to (I’d argue an immigrant’s good health will help them integrate too). As I said, any immigrant will soon realise that their earnings potential/mating potential/education potential will increase exponentially if they learn the language and assimilate etc (which may be why you see so many hard-working second generation kids).

And of course the host nation generally gets to decide. Why do you think Bangladeshi food is more popular here than Bangladeshi music? Or Italian fashion more popular than Italian Catholicism? For the same reasons listed above re: language.

I do think in some cultures this idea doesn’t work where for example women are expected not to work and exist almost entirely in their local communities. It tended to be Asian women who couldn’t speak English in my experience because they were SAHM and their husband did all the interacting with wider society.

But this is only ever for first generation immigrants. When someone is a kid they almost always get integrated. Though I do have concerns about Free Schools for this reason, same as I’ve got issue with private schools. Education is the most powerful integration mechanism we have and allowing people to opt out of it because of culture or wealth prevents that. I saw some research which said the least integrated community are the very wealthy who use their wealth to rarely interact with the rest of society.

 

[chiefdave]

What is British culture though? Thanks in no small part to the empire a huge chunk of what we consider 'ours' has been imported from elsewhere.

Are we just picking an arbitrary date and saying anything before that is OK but nothing new from this point forward?

 

[shmmeee]

What is British culture though? Thanks in no small part to the empire a huge chunk of what we consider 'ours' has been imported from elsewhere.

Are we just picking an arbitrary date and saying anything before that is OK but nothing new from this point forward?

Let’s not do this. Every country has a culture. You might not recognise it because you exist within it but it’s very obvious to people moving here there are thousands of unspoken rules and customs. We can joke about drinking tea but it’s a whole load of little things. Queuing, not bartering, not being blunt, that people coming in often struggle with at first.

A silly one my Dutch GF said threw her was the British tendency not to ask for what they want. Say there’s a plate of biscuits going around with one left it’s very British to refuse to take it but the Dutch would think this is ridiculous and if they want the biscuit take it.

 

[chiefdave]

Let’s not do this. Every country has a culture. You might not recognise it because you exist within it but it’s very obvious to people moving here there are thousands of unspoken rules and customs. We can joke about drinking tea but it’s a whole load of little things. Queuing, not bartering, not being blunt, that people coming in often struggle with at first.

A silly one my Dutch GF said threw her was the British tendency not to ask for what they want. Say there’s a plate of biscuits going around with one left it’s very British to refuse to take it but the Dutch would think this is ridiculous and if they want the biscuit take it.

Lets not do what? If people are saying that British culture is being overwritten with foreign influence then we need to establish what they think is at threat and what is acceptable foreign influence and what isn't.

Which of these thousands of unspoken rules and customs you refer to are on the verge of being wiped out?

 

[SBT]

I do think in some cultures this idea doesn’t work where for example women are expected not to work and exist almost entirely in their local communities.

You're basically describing the magic 1950s British culture that Malc was referring to!

 

[shmmeee]

You're basically describing the magic 1950s British culture that Malc was referring to!

Yeah when I posted the tea graph I almost posted church attendance too, and again that’s something recent immigrants tend to be propping up as native brits move away from it.

 

[wingy]

Something occurred to me last night, there's this fascination with Rwanda,well the neighbouring country seems to have a civil war or something,and the group Something 28 ,it was suggested that they are partially or fully can't remember but by Rwanda, I wonder if the last government new that while they were shipping hundreds of millions over there, make's you wonder doesn't it.

 

[shmmeee]

Lets not do what? If people are saying that British culture is being overwritten with foreign influence then we need to establish what they think is at threat and what is acceptable foreign influence and what isn't.

Which of these thousands of unspoken rules and customs you refer to are on the verge of being wiped out?

I just find it tiresome when people usually on the left pretend British culture doesn’t exist but every other country’s does. Then do what you’re doing and demand an itemised list they can shoot down one by one to prove their point.

Every group of people has a culture. Go on a local Facebook forum and you’ll see the culture of your local area, England, UK, Europe, all have cultures of various levels.

 

[SBT]

I just find it tiresome when people usually on the left pretend British culture doesn’t exist but every other country’s does. Then do what you’re doing and demand an itemised list they can shoot down one by one to prove their point.

Every group of people has a culture. Go on a local Facebook forum and you’ll see the culture of your local area, England, UK, Europe, all have cultures of various levels.

I don't think anyone is denying that Britain has a culture, but if you're going to claim that British culture is being erased then you do at least have to be able to define what exactly is being lost.

 

[shmmeee]

I don't think anyone is denying that Britain has a culture, but if you're going to claim that British culture is being erased then you do at least have to be able to define what exactly is being lost.

Why? Culture is hard to define concretely. I could give you a million examples like the four I already have, the point is that in aggregate a set of unspoken rules about how we interact with each other makes interacting easier and less stressful.

Take the example of language, at its face someone speaking Urdu or Dutch on the bus means nothing. But it’s unsettling in the same way whispering in public is. It makes people wonder if they’re being spoken about behind their back even when they’re not. It’s a minor annoyance but minor annoyances add up. So having a shared language gives everyone a bit of comfort, it also means they know if a problem arises they should be able to resolve it with language.

I’ve used this example before but in Romania laws around rubbish are different which leads to a view of rubbish as communal and fair game for others to take stuff if they want it. Here that’s not done and someone going through your bins raises suspicion that they’re up to something. I had this living in foleshill with worried older British women and my Romanian neighbours (who were lovely).

Moving away from foreigners teenagers who wear face coverings often scare older people even if they’re not up to no good because we have an unwritten rule that generally you don’t cover your face unless you’re hiding something probably criminal. This bleed over into distrust of niqabs.

Your answer will be “people need to just chill out” but any solution to social problems that starts “people need to” is doomed to fail, people never “just”. Humans are social animals that rightly or wrongly are more comfortable where they know the rules and can easily apply them to stay safe.

 

[SBT]

Why? Culture is hard to define concretely. I could give you a million examples like the four I already have, the point is that in aggregate a set of unspoken rules about how we interact with each other makes interacting easier and less stressful.

Take the example of language, at its face someone speaking Urdu or Dutch on the bus means nothing. But it’s unsettling in the same way whispering in public is. It makes people wonder if they’re being spoken about behind their back even when they’re not. It’s a minor annoyance but minor annoyances add up. So having a shared language gives everyone a bit of comfort, it also means they know if a problem arises they should be able to resolve it with language.

What you're describing is social anxiety and cultural misunderstandings, which are inevitable, but how does that erase British culture? Does a part of the Union Jack lose its colour Dorian Gray-style every time a couple of Dutch guys have a conversation on a bus?