Trump is my favourite comedian of the year already (40 Viewers)

[Grendel]

Good straw man work as always. I'm not going to get into it with you - we see things fundamentally differently and I cba - but my point was about which of the options would be better. If you actually think they'd have stronger human rights with Russia owning chunks of it, and Russia being enabled by the US to influence what's left, that's confusing.

No I don’t but it’s irrelevant. Ukraine has reserves that are of use - the big powers don’t and never have - cared about Ukraine.

 

---

[Grendel]

a bit like your willingness to have two senile pseudo / wannabe fascist dictators carve up a sovereign nation.

Thats life in the big playground. You could I suppose lobby Europe and Starmer to continue supporting Ukraine which renders trumps intervention useless.

Good luck

 

[fernandopartridge]

But we've been told for the last 3 years that Biden was only supporting Ukraine for US economic gain.

Just a coincidence that a new market for LNG exports was created as a result of this conflict

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Yes it is, from both of the super powers discussing its future

Well it certainly is now with Trump proposing more draconian terms than the Versailles Treaty to settle a war Ukraine did not start.

Someone made a very interesting point that Putin could in fact just undercut Trump’s offer and insist on say 30-40% of natural resource wealth rather than 50. So he gets all the benefits of Ukraine capitulating while actually appearing more merciful than the Americans.

 

[PVA]

Why do you think he was supporting them - altruism?

So Biden was only in it for economic gain and Trump is a genius for ending it to...save money.

Incredible train of thought.

It's almost as if you make it up as you go along to suit your agenda at the time.

 

[PVA]

Yes it is, from both of the super powers discussing its future

This is absolutely mental.

People have lost their fucking minds trying to defend this.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

This is absolutely mental.

People have lost their fucking minds trying to defend this.

Well right now he’s right because the US under Trump are trying to colonise it economically. Elon’s swastika armbands won’t pay for themselves.

 

[PVA]

Well right now he’s right because the US under Trump are trying to colonise it economically. Elon’s swastika armbands won’t pay for themselves.

Yeah they haven't been a victim of the US but they're certainly about to be.

 

[Grendel]

So Biden was only in it for economic gain and Trump is a genius for ending it to...save money.

Incredible train of thought.

It's almost as if you make it up as you go along to suit your agenda at the time.

 

[Grendel]

This is absolutely mental.

People have lost their fucking minds trying to defend this.

He isn’t defending just stating an obvious fact

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

He isn’t defending just stating an obvious fact

Well it’s obvious now with Agent Orange treating Ukraine more harshly than Nazi Germany

 

[PVA]

Another amazingly constructed response along with a silly GIF

Daft twat.

 

[Grendel]

Well it’s obvious now with Agent Orange treating Ukraine more harshly than Nazi Germany

You come across as a petulant 5 year old

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

You come across as a petulant 5 year old

Just stating an objective fact. And the ad homs come out because you can’t dispute the truth.

 

[Grendel]

Well it’s obvious now with Agent Orange treating Ukraine more harshly than Nazi Germany

An objective fact

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

An objective fact

More punitive terms than Versailles.

 

[Mucca Mad Boys]

More punitive terms than Versailles.

You’ve not seen the peace agreement so that’s impossible to make that judgement.

It’s posturing from the Trump administration, JD Vance said in tweet that the US has leverage on both sides.

Wake up and smell the coffee. The Biden administration could’ve put Ukraine in a much stronger position to change the tide of war and backed down at every critical juncture. Had Trump inherited a situation where Ukraine was making progress, then things would’ve played out differently. The conflict is now in a zombified state where Ukraine has just enough to not collapse but cannot push Russia out.

The European nations have been neglecting defence for far too long and if Russia wins this conflict, it’s the rude awakening Europe needs. For all its posturing, the European nations do not have the equipment nor manufacturing base to step up our defence capabilities because of our complete neglect. It’s quite telling that Poland is arguably Europe’s strongest military ‘pound for pound’.

 

[PVA]

You’ve not seen the peace agreement so that’s impossible to make that judgement.

But some people have. Granted it's a first 'offer' and not the signed deal. But the fact that is the opening offer says it all.

I totally agree with your final paragraph though

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

You’ve not seen the peace agreement so that’s impossible to make that judgement.

It’s posturing from the Trump administration, JD Vance said in tweet that the US has leverage on both sides.

Wake up and smell the coffee. The Biden administration could’ve put Ukraine in a much stronger position to change the tide of war and backed down at every critical juncture. Had Trump inherited a situation where Ukraine was making progress, then things would’ve played out differently. The conflict is now in a zombified state where Ukraine has just enough to not collapse but cannot push Russia out.

The European nations have been neglecting defence for far too long and if Russia wins this conflict, it’s the rude awakening Europe needs. For all its posturing, the European nations do not have the equipment nor manufacturing base to step up our defence capabilities because of our complete neglect. It’s quite telling that Poland is arguably Europe’s strongest military ‘pound for pound’.

The Biden administration could have done that, but you had some of the same people now demanding Ukrainian surrender at any price not wanting to further 'escalate' just after the invasion. Your views on this are a mess to be honest.

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

It’s insane how zelensky is being treated

 

[Mucca Mad Boys]

The Biden administration could have done that, but you had some of the same people now demanding Ukrainian surrender at any price not wanting to further 'escalate' just after the invasion. Your views on this are a mess to be honest.

That’s simply not true. One of the biggest things Ukraine wanted to do was to use US weapons for offensive purposes (I.e. in Russia) from the get go and particularly before the counter offensive in 2023. Biden delayed allowing this until after the 2024 election. Likewise, Germany also blocked other countries from exporting German-made tech and there were significant delays in the delivery of said kit. Pretending Ukraine is only being hung out to dry is just not an accurate statement. Allowing the conflict to become frozen was the worst outcome for Ukraine.

Europe can pretend to be outraged at Trump’s approach but they continued to effectively bankroll the Russian war effort in the first year or two because they didn’t have the conviction to cut off Russian energy, partly because of a misguided energy policy. Again, Biden’s overall policy was to tie one of Ukraine’s hand behind its back.

Without direct intervention in the war by NATO member states, this conflict is completely frozen.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

That’s simply not true. One of the biggest things Ukraine wanted to do was to use US weapons for offensive purposes (I.e. in Russia) from the get go and particularly before the counter offensive in 2023. Biden delayed allowing this until after the 2024 election. Likewise, Germany also blocked other countries from exporting German-made tech and there were significant delays in the delivery of said kit. Pretending Ukraine is only being hung out to dry is just not an accurate statement. Allowing the conflict to become frozen was the worst outcome for Ukraine.

Europe can pretend to be outraged at Trump’s approach but they continued to effectively bankroll the Russian war effort in the first year or two because they didn’t have the conviction to cut off Russian energy, partly because of a misguided energy policy. Again, Biden’s overall policy was to tie one of Ukraine’s hand behind its back.

Without direct intervention in the war by NATO member states, this conflict is completely frozen.

You're ignoring the point. There were plenty of people wanting to go further in helping Ukraine defeat the invasion outright, they were shouted down for risking Putin dropping the nukes.

 

[Grendel]

You're ignoring the point. There were plenty of people wanting to go further in helping Ukraine defeat the invasion outright, they were shouted down for risking Putin dropping the nukes.

Which people in power said that?

 

[Mucca Mad Boys]

You're ignoring the point. There were plenty of people wanting to go further in helping Ukraine defeat the invasion outright, they were shouted down for risking Putin dropping the nukes.

Disagreed because the governments in Germany and USA, in particular, were anxious about giving Putin ‘an off ramp’ and hesitated in giving the Ukrainians what they needed to turn the tide of war precisely because the Russians sabre-rattled. Specifically, the EU nations were concerned about Russia cutting Europe off from its gas and oil imports. They did not have the political will to endure the hardships of cutting itself from Russian gas and oil. Therefore, to reiterate: it bankrolled an invasion it denounced. It’s the definition of cakeism.

Ukraine is in the position it finds itself because of cowardly governments in the USA and Europe. That predated Trump taking office.

 

[SkyBlueCharlie9]

What have I said that's stupid, exactly? That Ukraine is also corrupt and he will be looking after number 1 like the others.

Some weird fuckers on here, sat winnie the poohing in a Ukraine shirt probably as well.

Like I said, some weirdos need to go outside and get some actual friends. (Not just people in their Labour Facebook Groups who send them protest signs for their bedrooms).

Nick that's an abysmally immature post. Also what evidence do you have that Ukraine is very corrupt?... Just sounds suspiciously like you are a Putin apologist.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Disagreed because the governments in Germany and USA, in particular, were anxious about giving Putin ‘an off ramp’ and hesitated in giving the Ukrainians what they needed to turn the tide of war precisely because the Russians sabre-rattled. Specifically, the EU nations were concerned about Russia cutting Europe off from its gas and oil imports. They did not have the political will to endure the hardships of cutting itself from Russian gas and oil. Therefore, to reiterate: it bankrolled an invasion it denounced. It’s the definition of cakeism.

Ukraine is in the position it finds itself because of cowardly governments in the USA and Europe. That predated Trump taking office.

So your conclusion is that Ukraine has been invaded and blown to smithereens not because Putin wanted a land grab, but because of Joe Biden and Europe?

What a dreadful excuse of a take.

 

[Sick Boy]

Nick that's an abysmally immature post. Also what evidence do you have that Ukraine is very corrupt?... Just sounds suspiciously like you are a Putin apologist.

It’s notorious for corruption. It’s improved since the war started because it’s had to but it’s still a major issue.

 

[Skybluekyle]

What have I said that's stupid, exactly? That Ukraine is also corrupt and he will be looking after number 1 like the others.

Some weird fuckers on here, sat winnie the poohing in a Ukraine shirt probably as well.

Like I said, some weirdos need to go outside and get some actual friends. (Not just people in their Labour Facebook Groups who send them protest signs for their bedrooms).

Surely this works to your advantage?

Nick "Increased job satisfaction and family togetherness are a poison for a purveyor of mind-numbing football forums such as myself"

 

[duffer]

What have I said that's stupid, exactly? That Ukraine is also corrupt and he will be looking after number 1 like the others.

Some weird fuckers on here, sat winnie the poohing in a Ukraine shirt probably as well.

Like I said, some weirdos need to go outside and get some actual friends. (Not just people in their Labour Facebook Groups who send them protest signs for their bedrooms).

Seriously, before telling people to go outside and get some mates, you ought to think about how much time you spend on here. Cut the personal shit, eh, it's totally unnecessary. If you want to debate the point, debate it.

Where's your evidence that Zelenskyy is corrupt or worse is motivated by corruption to keep the war going?

Let's have some links from independent news sources rather than Trump and Musk, or accept that you're going to be called out on a personal opinion that you can't support with evidence.

 

[duffer]

It’s notorious for corruption. It’s improved since the war started because it’s had to but it’s still a major issue.

And we've been here before, are you really saying that corruption justified Russia's invasion?

Of course you're not, it's another, really poor argument that is used by the Putin apologists. You're not that thick, why keep trotting it out?

 

[Sick Boy]

And we've been here before, are you really saying that corruption justified Russia's invasion?

Of course you're not, it's another, really poor argument that is used by the Putin apologists. You're not that thick, why keep trotting it out?

What? I've said nothing of the sort; I was replying to this question. I live in a country that has major issues with corruption and don't think it means it deserves to be invaded.

Also what evidence do you have that Ukraine is very corrupt?

 

[shmmeee]

It’s notorious for corruption. It’s improved since the war started because it’s had to but it’s still a major issue.

So give it to Russia who are a paragon of transparent government?

 

[shmmeee]

For someone who constantly claims everyone is making things up Nick sure does like to invent stories about people.

 

[Nick]

Nick that's an abysmally immature post. Also what evidence do you have that Ukraine is very corrupt?... Just sounds suspiciously like you are a Putin apologist.

Just sounds suspiciously like you're making things up, the same as when you call everybody racist for no reason.

 

[Nick]

For someone who constantly claims everyone is making things up Nick sure does like to invent stories about people.

What's been invented?