Another City Fan Arrested On Racism Charges (14 Viewers)
- Thread starter jon92
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coundonskyblue
New Member
There hasn't been a Communist revolution in an industrialised country because there hasn't been any need for one.
Karl Marx predicted (c. 1850) that the rich would carry on getting richer, and the poor would carry on getting poorer. By about 1900 it become clear that it hadn't happened and the working class were starting to become richer.
Capitalism has improved the lives of millions of working people. It is a system that is far from perfect, but regulated capitalism is the best system going.
Linking this back to the original thread, far right Nazis descriminate on race, far left Communists discriminate on class. Both as evil as each other, both discriminate against peoples because of their background.
Brighton Sky Blue
Well-Known Member
This doesn't link back at all. Either get back on topic or let's get this debate moved...
cloughie
Well-Known Member
I think we can all see that you have an opinion but you just can't except that someone else might just be right sometimes.
that is known as a know it all
As for name calling I think that is your forte with your wanker signs so often displayed
Don't think I called torch a know it all .............but he knows more than you
And guess what I don't always agree with him
'must be all that worldly wisdom and life experience he has learnt in school'.............. obviously went straight over your head
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Mucca Mad Boys
Well-Known Member
Did the 'free market' come to the rescue of belligerent nations in WW1 and WW2? No, the war economies relied on economic planning and centralisation, the USA ran a war economy from WW2 past the 60's which established them as the world power, obviously here, private companies were given contracts etc. but they were told what to make etc.
You say Marx was wrong in saying 'the rich will get richer whilst the poor will get poorer', but, although the poorer are getting 'richer', yet, the divide is increasing, in this respect Marx is correct.
Capitalism has very unstable foundations, it is a system that relies on the exploitation of workers, yes, in some countries, workers' lives have improved, with unions, min wage, welfare state, but the system relies on cheap labour, Nike, Apple, Primark (I don't need to carry on) all have made use of cheap labour in countries like India, China (ironically) and Brazil (plus many more countries) and when these countries reform, these corporations are fucked when they have no workforce to exploit. Tell the people who work in sweatshops how much capitalism has improved their lives...
Why hasn't there been a revolution in industrialised countries? Well, Lenin argued the proletariat can only develop a 'Trade Union conscience' not a revolutionary one, and if the proletariat develops this 'trade union conscience' it becomes a settled proletariat. In Russia and China, there were no such things because of the ruthlessness of the regimes before the revolutions so the workers' could only be revolutionary. Which appears to be true tbf to Lenin.
Discrimination against the ruling class is not evil, it is fighting against those who have exploited your 'comrades' to make themselves rich.
I'm also pretty sure the Tories discriminate against class, they launch an attack on people on benefits and the working class by attempting to privatise the NHS, whilst their millionaire/billionaire paymasters get tax breaks.
Capitalism has lasted so long because of pressure from 'socialism'/'communism', it is a reactionary system, look at the Liberal reforms at the turn of the 20th century, pure reaction. The welfare state? Pure reaction from pressure from 'lefties'. NHS? Pure reaction from lefties. Free education? Reaction from lefties. You get the point. Communism will either be: the natural successor of capitalism OR the greatest pressure group that has ever existed. Remember, Capitalism was being touted as system from possibly as early as the 14th Century, and capitalism only really developed after the industrial revolution which was the 18th Century (?) so there is hope for the revolutionary left.
Your definitely a Tory from the 'Bablake' region of Coventry, definitely.
Because being abusive to a French person is still referring to a white European - i.e., the majority of people and, as such will be considered abusive and not racist.
There, I've explained it twice now and you probably STILL don't get it. Oh well.
You're not "that sort" are you?
imp:Brighton Sky Blue
Well-Known Member
For crying out loud SBT let it go. I went to Henry's and have always voted Labour.
Grendel
Well-Known Member
SBT your not supposed to be using this forum to assist your revision. Incidentally I secured a "B" in history A level specialising in Russian politics 1917 to 1945. From a failing school it was well regarded.
Now as long as you remember the Russian capital that's a you need to get an A* so just chill out.
Now as long as you remember the Russian capital that's a you need to get an A* so just chill out.
Mucca Mad Boys
Well-Known Member
It's called a debate Cloughie, each person believes they are right, did Obama in the debates say, "Mitt, you're right, your 5 point plan will get America back on track, I am wrong." No, because he has different views on the economy, socially and foreign policy so puts forward his opinions. I think you struggle to understand this.
My forte might be the :jerkit: ... So what? Your forte is getting personal, which is first signs of losing an argument. If someone disagrees with you, you get personal, and you're supposed to be some 'hot-shot' who is a mature adult!? :laugh:
I don't know why you had to make that immature comment regarding torch and I, it was needless and an immature attempt to get me to say 'I'm smarter than torch', turning us against each other, divide and rule tactics...
What did you want me to say back to that comment, I took it in, I understand it. You want me to get personal? I wouldn't stoop to your level.
Changeyourface
New Member
Because being abusive to a French person is still referring to a white European - i.e., the majority of people and, as such will be considered abusive and not racist.
There, I've explained it twice now and you probably STILL don't get it. Oh well.
You're not "that sort" are you?
Race and racism are not just about the colour of skin but also a person's nationality, culture etc. So being abusive towards someone because of their nationality is just as racist as being abusive towards someone because of their skin colour.
Brighton Sky Blue
Well-Known Member
Do find that a touch insulting since I only took mine 5 years ago.
Mucca Mad Boys
Well-Known Member
THERE'S TOO MANY CAPITAL NAMES FOR RUSSIA IN THIS PERIOD!?!?!?!?
Is Petrograd and St. Petersburg the same place? What about Moscow
Joking, I got that nailed down.
Fair play for getting a good grade from a failing school. What school did you go?
Mucca Mad Boys
Well-Known Member
What? That wasn't aimed at you
I know you went to a private school and it's clear you have socialist tendencies... No surprises here.
Brighton Sky Blue
Well-Known Member
What? That wasn't aimed at you
I know you went to a private school and it's clear you have socialist tendencies... No surprises here.
I'm more wound up by the academic debate this thread has become!
Grendel
Well-Known Member
I'm only joking. You'd need to know what continent it's in as well (could be tricky that one).
hill83
Well-Known Member
Maybe technically, but in practice that just isn't the case.
It really really isn't the case.
Being abused for the colour of your skin hurts a lot more than your nationality.
This is a fact. Like I said before, call me an English c*nt, I wouldn't be bothered.
Brighton Sky Blue
Well-Known Member
Chemistry A level was similar. Whoever was last to drink the acid got an A, whoever drank the most got a B and if you did both you got into Oxford.
Grendel
Well-Known Member
Changeyourface I suspect is from the Bernard Manning school of multi culturism. You are wasting your time.
Slightly off subject and a genuine question for a person of mixed race. ( no agenda just interest) have you suffered prejudice from white and black people. I know a mate of mine did back in the day
LastGarrison
Well-Known Member
I m pretty sure manning didn't go to any school of multi culturism, nor comedy for that matter
coundonskyblue
New Member
Did the 'free market' come to the rescue of belligerent nations in WW1 and WW2? No, the war economies relied on economic planning and centralisation, the USA ran a war economy from WW2 past the 60's which established them as the world power, obviously here, private companies were given contracts etc. but they were told what to make etc. This was a time of great shortages, a common theme amongst planned economies.
You say Marx was wrong in saying 'the rich will get richer whilst the poor will get poorer', but, although the poorer are getting 'richer', yet, the divide is increasing, in this respect Marx is correct. So what if the divide is increasing? Surely its your own circumstances that matter and that the living standards of the poor increase? Politics of envy coming into it here?
Capitalism has very unstable foundations, it is a system that relies on the exploitation of workers, yes, in some countries, workers' lives have improved, with unions, min wage, welfare state, but the system relies on cheap labour, Nike, Apple, Primark (I don't need to carry on) all have made use of cheap labour in countries like India, China (ironically) and Brazil (plus many more countries) and when these countries reform, these corporations are fucked when they have no workforce to exploit. Tell the people who work in sweatshops how much capitalism has improved their lives... Whilst I don't condone how workers are treated in those countries, surely they are better off than without a job at all? Would you prefer it if those companies closed up and moved their factories back to the west?
Why hasn't there been a revolution in industrialised countries? Well, Lenin argued the proletariat can only develop a 'Trade Union conscience' not a revolutionary one, and if the proletariat develops this 'trade union conscience' it becomes a settled proletariat. In Russia and China, there were no such things because of the ruthlessness of the regimes before the revolutions so the workers' could only be revolutionary. Which appears to be true tbf to Lenin. I am not familar with Chinese history so I will not comment on that, but in pre revolution Russia the peasants were treated with total contempt. The Tsar's dictitorial manor also contributed to the revolution. Most working people just wanted to be listened to and have some food, not create a new world order.
Discrimination against the ruling class is not evil, it is fighting against those who have exploited your 'comrades' to make themselves rich. A child born in 1945 Romania whose parents had been wealthy before the Communist government took over would be prevented from having a full education, purely on the basis that their parents were classed as wealthy. This doesn't seem evil to you?
I'm also pretty sure the Tories discriminate against class, they launch an attack on people on benefits and the working class by attempting to privatise the NHS, whilst their millionaire/billionaire paymasters get tax breaks. The Conservative party also oversaw the largest Council house building program in British History, introduced the Factory Act which was the first step in abolishing child labour, the public health act which created a proper sewer system for urban areas, and allowed working people to own their own homes through the right to buy scheme.
As for the NHS, as long as its free at the point of use, and remains a high standard, then what does it matter?
Capitalism has lasted so long because of pressure from 'socialism'/'communism', it is a reactionary system, look at the Liberal reforms at the turn of the 20th century, pure reaction. The welfare state? Pure reaction from pressure from 'lefties'. NHS? Pure reaction from lefties. Free education? Reaction from lefties. You get the point. Communism will either be: the natural successor of capitalism OR the greatest pressure group that has ever existed. Remember, Capitalism was being touted as system from possibly as early as the 14th Century, and capitalism only really developed after the industrial revolution which was the 18th Century (?) so there is hope for the revolutionary left. But we have never had a full Captilalist state, and I would not want to live in one. Free healthcare and free education fit perfectly into a regulated capitalist model as both help the economy. The country would be in a mess if everyone was either stupid or dead. It seems to be forgotten that a capitalist society introduced free education and the police.
Your definitely a Tory from the 'Bablake' region of Coventry, definitely. Sherbourne area actually. Is calling me a Tory meant to be an insult? I have voted Tory in the past, just as at one time I voted Labour, and I am yet undecided if I shall vote in the next election.
You say Marx was wrong in saying 'the rich will get richer whilst the poor will get poorer', but, although the poorer are getting 'richer', yet, the divide is increasing, in this respect Marx is correct. So what if the divide is increasing? Surely its your own circumstances that matter and that the living standards of the poor increase? Politics of envy coming into it here?
Capitalism has very unstable foundations, it is a system that relies on the exploitation of workers, yes, in some countries, workers' lives have improved, with unions, min wage, welfare state, but the system relies on cheap labour, Nike, Apple, Primark (I don't need to carry on) all have made use of cheap labour in countries like India, China (ironically) and Brazil (plus many more countries) and when these countries reform, these corporations are fucked when they have no workforce to exploit. Tell the people who work in sweatshops how much capitalism has improved their lives... Whilst I don't condone how workers are treated in those countries, surely they are better off than without a job at all? Would you prefer it if those companies closed up and moved their factories back to the west?
Why hasn't there been a revolution in industrialised countries? Well, Lenin argued the proletariat can only develop a 'Trade Union conscience' not a revolutionary one, and if the proletariat develops this 'trade union conscience' it becomes a settled proletariat. In Russia and China, there were no such things because of the ruthlessness of the regimes before the revolutions so the workers' could only be revolutionary. Which appears to be true tbf to Lenin. I am not familar with Chinese history so I will not comment on that, but in pre revolution Russia the peasants were treated with total contempt. The Tsar's dictitorial manor also contributed to the revolution. Most working people just wanted to be listened to and have some food, not create a new world order.
Discrimination against the ruling class is not evil, it is fighting against those who have exploited your 'comrades' to make themselves rich. A child born in 1945 Romania whose parents had been wealthy before the Communist government took over would be prevented from having a full education, purely on the basis that their parents were classed as wealthy. This doesn't seem evil to you?
I'm also pretty sure the Tories discriminate against class, they launch an attack on people on benefits and the working class by attempting to privatise the NHS, whilst their millionaire/billionaire paymasters get tax breaks. The Conservative party also oversaw the largest Council house building program in British History, introduced the Factory Act which was the first step in abolishing child labour, the public health act which created a proper sewer system for urban areas, and allowed working people to own their own homes through the right to buy scheme.
As for the NHS, as long as its free at the point of use, and remains a high standard, then what does it matter?
Capitalism has lasted so long because of pressure from 'socialism'/'communism', it is a reactionary system, look at the Liberal reforms at the turn of the 20th century, pure reaction. The welfare state? Pure reaction from pressure from 'lefties'. NHS? Pure reaction from lefties. Free education? Reaction from lefties. You get the point. Communism will either be: the natural successor of capitalism OR the greatest pressure group that has ever existed. Remember, Capitalism was being touted as system from possibly as early as the 14th Century, and capitalism only really developed after the industrial revolution which was the 18th Century (?) so there is hope for the revolutionary left. But we have never had a full Captilalist state, and I would not want to live in one. Free healthcare and free education fit perfectly into a regulated capitalist model as both help the economy. The country would be in a mess if everyone was either stupid or dead. It seems to be forgotten that a capitalist society introduced free education and the police.
Your definitely a Tory from the 'Bablake' region of Coventry, definitely. Sherbourne area actually. Is calling me a Tory meant to be an insult? I have voted Tory in the past, just as at one time I voted Labour, and I am yet undecided if I shall vote in the next election.
Plenty of acid was taken at our school.
What did E stand for on the periodic table circa 1992?!
coundonskyblue
New Member
But surely your talking from a personal point of view? How do you know how a French person would feel being called that?
Changeyourface
New Member
Hardly, I just think people seem to see one type of racism as worse than another.
Plenty of acid was taken at our school.
We just used to open the gas taps and suck it in and go giddy ,used to volunteer to clean the glass cabinets where all the volatile stuff ;Ie radioactive materials were stored so i could have a fag in the techy room between the biology and physics labs .:facepalm:
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hill83
Well-Known Member
Without going into too much detail I pretty much look white, you wouldn't know I was part black until I tell you, think Ryan Giggs
So yeah, both sides. Never met my great grandparents on my dads (white) side of the family as they refused to see me.
Got it a scuffle with a middle aged black guy for hanging around with a black woman (my mum) who in all honestly looks about 10 years older than me. I think he was jealous.
But in all honesty, not that often. I surround myself with good people. Usually at Cov home and away games!
It's not really than much of a problem in my life I just like talking about it on forums.
Them were the days!
hill83
Well-Known Member
True, but my half French mate always laughs it off. People generally don't take it as seriously.
Without going into too much detail I pretty much look white, you wouldn't know I was part black until I tell you, think Ryan Giggs
So yeah, both sides. Never met my great grandparents on my dads (white) side of the family as they refused to see me.
Got it a scuffle with a middle aged black guy for hanging around with a black woman (my mum) who in all honestly looks about 10 years older than me. I think he was jealous.
But in all honesty, not that often. I surround myself with good people. Usually at Cov home and away games!
It's not really than much of a problem in my life I just like talking about it on forums.
I think the problem I have when debating with someone younger on the subject is that at 40 I remember the bad old days and it seems relatively much much better. Not if course that because something has improved it makes anything happening now any more acceptable. Honestly you could sit next to someone who would be calling someone a black c**t all game and there was barely any reaction. Unbelievable now.
hill83
Well-Known Member
I understand totally. I know my Granddad and then my mum went through some tough times in the 60s/70s etc. I presume it's a lot better now.
You are only 10 years older than me to be fair!
I think with insults you have to know the person will not take offence. My group of mates when I was younger was so stereotypical. Chubby one, short arse, slaphead, lanky one. We ripped the piss out of each other all the time. But if I met someone overweight on a course at work I'd unlikely after a few hours to say " you want a biscuit fatty"
hill83
Well-Known Member
It probably sounds hypocritical but me and my mates take the piss out of eachother all the time, fat this, bald this etc, but never Black this, white that. It's just a unwritten rule of respect.
I can't say I ve never thought something that could be considered racist. I ve watched the news and seen Asian guys ranting about our society and slagging off the country and thought " how about you take the next plane to a radical Islamic country" so I m hardly whiter than white. If you excuse the awful pun
skybluehugh
New Member
Sorry, I'm no racist, but I will lose no sleep when that woman goes. And her followers are doing just the same to the country as she did. PS I'm no leftie either