Latest: Fisher says 'no chance' of CCFC playing at Ricoh (3 Viewers)

[James Smith]

And therein lies the difference between the mentality of our supporters and those of other clubs.

Every other club that has sought to dispute the rent charged in a council run/owned facility have had the full backing of their supporters. Ipswich fans united behind the club and the council backed down and stopped court proceedings.

So the fact that Ipswich Town agreed to pay the backdated increased rent over a 6 year rather than the 4 years originally suggested had nothing to do with the ending of any proceedings.http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-suffolk-16997055

Doncaster council gifted their stadium to the football club

No they didn't they signed a long lease with the club and the club are now responsible for the losses made by the Stadium.

The Keepmoat management company was losing ~£300k a year and that was with the tenants all paying their rent and getting all the extra revenue a stadium generates. So Doncaster Rovers have signed up for a long lease and are paying £100k per year rent plus have got £400k from the council for refurbishment plus money from the naming rights.

However if you add up the annual loss the stadium management company (SMC) was making and add that to the amount Rovers were paying in rent to the SMC it's roughly £600k. Even if Rovers have reduced the losses it would still be costing them as RP Hunt says in this post £400k a year for a stadium with a lower capacity than ours. So that council cheque for £400k would only just cover the costs for a year and it was for repairs and refurbishment. Now the often mentioned naming rights were already included in the losses incurred by the SMC, if you read the council scrutiny document https://www.doncaster.gov.uk/db/cham...c update.doc it shows that money as being included. So it doesn't matter if they are getting £90k for that, it doesn't offset the losses that Rovers will have to cover as they lease the stadium. So saying Doncaster Rovers were gifted the stadium is possibly slightly wide of the mark.

The legal and moral case went out of the window in those instances because the owners (and fans) of those clubs argued successfully that the club was worth much more to the local community and economy that the proceeds from rent - rents that were seen to be holding those clubs back. Just read some of the comments from the council leader in Swansea when it was suggested Swansea City should pay more. The difference in attitude is utterly staggering. If only we had a council leader with that sort of foresight.

I understand that things were slightly different here in that we had owners nobody liked or trusted. Fine, but I'm not going to stand by and say nothing in reply to some of the utterly pathetic comments earlier in this thread and on others today suggesting that those who sided with the club in the rent dispute and who didn't start protesting against SISU early last season are somehow culpable for the mess we are now in. Absolute tosh.

It seems to me that the people culpable for the mess we are in now is SISU and Tim Fisher.

 

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[DaleM]

F&B's make about £100k profit per annum not £280, and 25%(?) would go to Compass.

I was being generous with the figures. So basically its an even worse drop in the ocean then.

 

[Danceswithhorses]

I wonder how long it will take before SISU threaten us with their 'nuclear option' ? ie if we don't give them what they want, they WILL liquidate us.
As they have no loyalty to the city, the football club and the supporters, they would of course have no problem doing this.
Unfortunately for them, it's got so bad, that we might actually see it as a relief, bringing an end to their farcical ownership of our club.

 

[wingy]

I wonder how long it will take before SISU threaten us with their 'nuclear option' ? ie if we don't give them what they want, they WILL liquidate us.
As they have no loyalty to the city, the football club and the supporters, they would of course have no problem doing this.
Unfortunately for them, it's got so bad, that we might actually see it as a relief, bringing an end to their farcical ownership of our club.

What the other side hinted at around May last year.

Did'nt the cheeky chubby dog owner from T'up north hint at this also around 3 months ago "Catastrophic Insolvency"

 

[swanageskyblue]

Not sure if this fits into this thread, but do not know how to start another one anyway, so...

My Sunday morning was just disturbed by a phone call from Tim Fisher! I'm sure he has made many of these but I was still taken aback. He said that over 1500 fans have already signed up to attend fans forums over the next 2 weeks and he wanted me to come to a small group forum at Ryton next week, as I made some interesting comments in that questionnaire they sent out.

He asserted that this situation was all about a sustainable business model which was impossible to achieve at the Ricoh and he quoted some statistics to support his argument. He does talk well and has clearly said the same things many times, so I cannot claim to have hit him with many convincing counter-arguments!

I did manage to make the point that SISU's credibility was so low, and he was so closely associated with them, that I did not believe anything that he said. His counter to my statement that moving away from the Ricoh would destroy the club as very few fans would follow us to a borrowed ground was that SISU have committed to support these losses for 3 years until a new stadium is ready. I really don't believe that would prove to be true.

I declined his offer to attend the forum, as I live so far away and I have so little belief in anything he says, which he said was hard for him to take.

It was a civil conversation - I see no value in being abusive to anyone - but it did not alter my view on things - I'm still firmly in the NOT A PENNY MORE camp!

 

[BrisbaneBronco]

Not sure if this fits into this thread, but do not know how to start another one anyway, so...

My Sunday morning was just disturbed by a phone call from Tim Fisher! I'm sure he has made many of these but I was still taken aback. He said that over 1500 fans have already signed up to attend fans forums over the next 2 weeks and he wanted me to come to a small group forum at Ryton next week, as I made some interesting comments in that questionnaire they sent out.

He asserted that this situation was all about a sustainable business model which was impossible to achieve at the Ricoh and he quoted some statistics to support his argument. He does talk well and has clearly said the same things many times, so I cannot claim to have hit him with many convincing counter-arguments!

I did manage to make the point that SISU's credibility was so low, and he was so closely associated with them, that I did not believe anything that he said. His counter to my statement that moving away from the Ricoh would destroy the club as very few fans would follow us to a borrowed ground was that SISU have committed to support these losses for 3 years until a new stadium is ready. I really don't believe that would prove to be true.

I declined his offer to attend the forum, as I live so far away and I have so little belief in anything he says, which he said was hard for him to take.

It was a civil conversation - I see no value in being abusive to anyone - but it did not alter my view on things - I'm still firmly in the NOT A PENNY MORE camp!

The problem is that nobody believes a word that comes out of his mouth, so he is on a hiding to nothing.

He needs to answer questions such as

Has any appropriate land been found
When will they purchase this
How much will the land cost
Are plans drawn up
What size stadium
If it is small can it be extended should we get back to the premier league
How much will the stadium cost.
Finally, Have ACL/CCC at any time offered SISU the opportunity of purchasing half of the Ricoh arena and if so what was the price. and how does this compare with the cost of relocating and building a new stadium.

 

[Noggin]

anyone that receives a call from him should ask, your most recent statement says you only do business is good faith always, yet your documents to the court state you tried to distress ACL how do you reconcile these statements especially with all the negotiating you did, you dragged it out as long as possible in order to distress them further, how can you believe this is good faith business?

When he tells you about sisu supporting the losses while a new stadium is built, ask how they are going to manage with ffp with only a few thousand fans a game, they will almost certainly get us relegated again over the 3 years and mention there is almost no hope of you managing it in 3 years too and mention how hard will be to get back to the amount of fans we have now when 80% of them will have gotten out of the habit of coming.

Of course its easy to think of things to say when you don't have the pressure of being on the line with someone who is very good at spin, im not sure id fair any better.

 

[Grendel]

So the fact that Ipswich Town agreed to pay the backdated increased rent over a 6 year rather than the 4 years originally suggested had nothing to do with the ending of any proceedings.http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-suffolk-16997055
No they didn't they signed a long lease with the club and the club are now responsible for the losses made by the Stadium.

The Keepmoat management company was losing ~£300k a year and that was with the tenants all paying their rent and getting all the extra revenue a stadium generates. So Doncaster Rovers have signed up for a long lease and are paying £100k per year rent plus have got £400k from the council for refurbishment plus money from the naming rights.

However if you add up the annual loss the stadium management company (SMC) was making and add that to the amount Rovers were paying in rent to the SMC it's roughly £600k. Even if Rovers have reduced the losses it would still be costing them as RP Hunt says in this post £400k a year for a stadium with a lower capacity than ours. So that council cheque for £400k would only just cover the costs for a year and it was for repairs and refurbishment. Now the often mentioned naming rights were already included in the losses incurred by the SMC, if you read the council scrutiny document https://www.doncaster.gov.uk/db/cham...c update.doc it shows that money as being included. So it doesn't matter if they are getting £90k for that, it doesn't offset the losses that Rovers will have to cover as they lease the stadium. So saying Doncaster Rovers were gifted the stadium is possibly slightly wide of the mark.

It seems to me that the people culpable for the mess we are in now is SISU and Tim Fisher.

Why do you keep persisting with the smokescreen regarding Doncaster? The club have already stated the rent of £400,000 is fair. That's not an issue and you know it.

I can't go screw latest accounts from the management company for the last financial year. Are they still losing the same money? More importantly what is the turnover?

 

[SkyBlueSwiss]

It's funny how all those who say things like 'we need to fight, no way pompey fans would have been so indifferent etc....' fail to point out that there is not a chance in hell that pompey fans would have allowed their local council to fleece their club so brazenly for so long. Not a fucking chance. Where were you rabble-rousers then? Nowhere. We should all fight for our football club of course - but its also funny that many of those saying we need to start direct action are also the ones calling for there to be a breakaway club.

So, you care about the club THAT much that your first instinct when things go tits up is to start a NEW club? Absolute jokers.

Why do you so conveniently ignore the fact that the club were offered a sliding scale of rent depending on league position and that was turned down by the club in favour of the current fixed rent agreement?
Why do you conveniently forget that a far better deal was offered, was said by Tim Fisher to be acceptable, and was then turned down by the club?
Why do you conveniently forget that SISU/CCFC could have bought the Higgs share from the word go and they didn't?

Your memory is being exceedingly selective to make such unsubstantiated and untrue statements about the council "brazenly fleecing" the club. Why do you and others ignore these self-evident truths in your arguments. That the rent was too high, that we all agree. How it got there is because of the clubs actions over many years, not because of the actions of the council or ACL.

 

[bigfatronssba]

Ferret, grendel, covmark, inside track, can one of please explain how acl are responsible for £69m of debt?

 

[Grendel]

Ferret, grendel, covmark, inside track, can one of please explain how acl are responsible for £69m of debt?

Glad your lumping us all into one big happy family.

They are not. Can you explain why supporters are happy to have been paying £900,000 a year rent above the average for nearly a decade and were happy with it and continue to be happy with a deal which still in FPP terms means the club has one arm tied behind its back.

Another question. Do you think any other club would give a stuff about a separate management company and given the choice of bankrupting it and taking it over wouldn't grab it with both hands (as they are now not tied behind their back?)

 

[ccfcway]

Can you explain why supporters are happy to have been paying £900,000 a year rent above the average for nearly a decade and were happy with it and continue to be happy with a deal which still in FPP terms means the club has one arm tied behind its back.

Try not paying your mortgage for 9 months and see if the bank and its stakeholders are happy with you !

 

[Broken Hearted Sky Blue]

Ferret, grendel, covmark, inside track, can one of please explain how acl are responsible for £69m of debt?

Come on now even I cant argue with them its obvious

1.2million rent x 5 years = 69 million if I can see it why cant you?

All figures supplied by Sisu School of economics.
The above are all degree hoders of that esteemed establishment

 

[bigfatronssba]

Glad your lumping us all into one big happy family.

They are not. Can you explain why supporters are happy to have been paying £900,000 a year rent above the average for nearly a decade and were happy with it and continue to be happy with a deal which still in FPP terms means the club has one arm tied behind its back.

Another question. Do you think any other club would give a stuff about a separate management company and given the choice of bankrupting it and taking it over wouldn't grab it with both hands (as they are now not tied behind their back?)

I'm sure everyone would like a lower rent, but acl has a £14m mortgage to pay, how else will that get paid?

I doubt that most clubs would try and bankrupt their landlord (do you think nuneaton are happy about being potentially homeless?), but let's assume they did, that still doesn't make it right.

Glad you agree with me about acl not being the cause of the debt though, I mean the rent is insignificant compared to that.

 

[Grendel]

I'm sure everyone would like a lower rent, but acl has a £14m mortgage to pay, how else will that get paid?

I doubt that most clubs would try and bankrupt their landlord (do you think nuneaton are happy about being potentially homeless?), but let's assume they did, that still doesn't make it right.

Glad you agree with me about acl not being the cause of the debt though, I mean the rent is insignificant compared to that.

Your answer does show why we are in the mess we are in and why most other supporters laugh at us. We deserve all we get. If ACL went bankrupt and everyone lost their jobs as long as that meant I sat in my seat in August at the Ricoh I wouldn't care less. Would you?

 

[wingy]

Not sure if this fits into this thread, but do not know how to start another one anyway, so...

My Sunday morning was just disturbed by a phone call from Tim Fisher! I'm sure he has made many of these but I was still taken aback. He said that over 1500 fans have already signed up to attend fans forums over the next 2 weeks and he wanted me to come to a small group forum at Ryton next week, as I made some interesting comments in that questionnaire they sent out.

He asserted that this situation was all about a sustainable business model which was impossible to achieve at the Ricoh and he quoted some statistics to support his argument. He does talk well and has clearly said the same things many times, so I cannot claim to have hit him with many convincing counter-arguments!

I did manage to make the point that SISU's credibility was so low, and he was so closely associated with them, that I did not believe anything that he said. His counter to my statement that moving away from the Ricoh would destroy the club as very few fans would follow us to a borrowed ground was that SISU have committed to support these losses for 3 years until a new stadium is ready. I really don't believe that would prove to be true.

I declined his offer to attend the forum, as I live so far away and I have so little belief in anything he says, which he said was hard for him to take.

It was a civil conversation - I see no value in being abusive to anyone - but it did not alter my view on things - I'm still firmly in the NOT A PENNY MORE camp!

I think you may have had a lucky escape ,smacks of Moony style indoctrination .

 

[bigfatronssba]

Your answer does show why we are in the mess we are in and why most other supporters laugh at us. We deserve all we get. If ACL went bankrupt and everyone lost their jobs as long as that meant I sat in my seat in August at the Ricoh I wouldn't care less. Would you?

For a start Yorkshire bank would have most probably took over and all rent negotiations would have been called off, and secondly, I would care if people lost their jobs employed by a company that had done no wrong. Do you have a conscience?

 

[Broken Hearted Sky Blue]

Your answer does show why we are in the mess we are in and why most other supporters laugh at us. We deserve all we get. If ACL went bankrupt and everyone lost their jobs as long as that meant I sat in my seat in August at the Ricoh I wouldn't care less. Would you?

To be honest I dont care what you do you still cant see so theres no point in you exsisting when Sisu leave whenever that is with CCFC being a distant memory thats you done.

 

[Broken Hearted Sky Blue]

Your answer does show why we are in the mess we are in and why most other supporters laugh at us. We deserve all we get. If ACL went bankrupt and everyone lost their jobs as long as that meant I sat in my seat in August at the Ricoh I wouldn't care less. Would you?

By the way we are in a mess because of SISU nobody else

 

[SkyblueBazza]

Your answer does show why we are in the mess we are in and why most other supporters laugh at us. We deserve all we get. If ACL went bankrupt and everyone lost their jobs as long as that meant I sat in my seat in August at the Ricoh I wouldn't care less. Would you?

That is the crooks of the whole issue. As fans we cannot have it all ways. SISU force ACL out of business &/or buy the Ricoh at knock-down price - or move out to pastures new where the club can try to flourish simply via success on the pitch. Win games, crowds & revenue increase, investment for future success & profit for the owners. Sharing the Ricoh dilutes all of that. Renting the Ricoh at the former price puts us into a nose-dive.
I disapprove of many of the tactics employed this far & would find it hard to negotiate a fair deal from either side's perspective given the history.
Both parties need to think of the best & most amicable way out. Then put the bloody lot up for sale so ANY organisation can bid for both...pretty much start again!

 

[Deleted member 5849]

That is the crooks of the whole issue.

Freudian slip?

 

[SkyblueBazza]

By the way we are in a mess because of SISU nobody else

That's not true. There is a catalogue of self serving, mis-managing, egotists stretching well back.

 

[SkyblueBazza]

Freudian slip?

Sorry your Honour ;-)

 

[Broken Hearted Sky Blue]

That's not true. There is a catalogue of self serving, mis-managing, egotists stretching well back.

Yes it is they have had 5 or 6 years to sort it out have they NO and they are the turnaround experts:facepalm:
We are 69,30,20 million in debt which is it? Its anything they want it to be numerous companies,funds identities tangled finances breaking promises,agreements playing hardball,softball anything but FOOTBALL. Relegation to third division appointing managers every five minutes great ideas of subs by text,directors sitting on the bench,mascot going on a diet. We are debt free no we're not yes weare no we're not etc. They have engineered this situation they are SOLELY responsible for this have I missed anything?????

 

[SkyblueBazza]

Yes it is they have had 5 or 6 years to sort it out have they NO and they are the turnaround experts:facepalm:
We are 69,30,20 million in debt which is it? Its anything they want it to be numerous companies,funds identities tangled finances breaking promises,agreements playing hardball,softball anything but FOOTBALL. Relegation to third division appointing managers every five minutes great ideas of subs by text,directors sitting on the bench,mascot going on a diet. We are debt free no we're not yes weare no we're not etc. They have engineered this situation they are SOLELY responsible for this have I missed anything?????

Didn't read all of your post...Gotta go out...but the essence of paragraph two seems to concur with my thoughts. Your opening sentence does vindicate my post though - we were already in a mess when SISU showed up. Their efforts to get us out of the said mess have or haven't worked to one degree or another depending on what & how you look at things.

 

[torchomatic]

By the way we are in a mess because of SISU nobody else

Rubbish. SISU have just made a bad situation a hell of a lot worse. Five simple letters of the alphabet explain the mess we are in:

C H I O R

(in alphabetical order for you).

Sent from my GT-S5830 using Tapatalk 2

 

[Deleted member 5849]

Rubbish. SISU have just made a bad situation a hell of a lot worse. Five simple letters of the alphabet explain the mess we are in:

C H I O R

(in alphabetical order for you).

Blaming poor Gregor for everything is harsh!

 

[Broken Hearted Sky Blue]

Rubbish. SISU have just made a bad situation a hell of a lot worse. Five simple letters of the alphabet explain the mess we are in:

C H I O R

(in alphabetical order for you).

Sent from my GT-S5830 using Tapatalk 2

Of course its rubbish because it doesn't agree with you.
If you think I'm going to spend time thinking about stupid codes that you you think make you look clever think again

 

[wingy]

Rubbish. SISU have just made a bad situation a hell of a lot worse. Five simple letters of the alphabet explain the mess we are in:

C H I O R

(in alphabetical order for you).

Sent from my GT-S5830 using Tapatalk 2

VENUE would be better ,RICOH really should'nt cop for this .

 

[savosdad]

This man is a total disgrace should have been disposed of months ago doesnt even dress as a executive just a c**t

 

[torchomatic]

It's weird - or maybe not - that Fisher seemed like he was on CWR every morning on the way to work saying something or other. You would have thought that with something as - potentially - big as this, he would be back on there. Seems mouthy through statements but not so forthcoming to be questioned live on air any more. :thinking about:

 

[James Smith]

Why do you keep persisting with the smokescreen regarding Doncaster?

What smokescreen is that? If people are under the illusion that Doncaster Council decided hand over an asset for nothing, they should be aware of the facts that lead up to this decision.

The club have already stated the rent of £400,000 is fair.

Wait, when have Doncaster Rovers ever come out and said that there was a rent at the Keepmoat of £400,000? We merely speculated on here that if they had reduced the losses then the stadium could be costing them £400k but as I said we've no evidence of this - See below.

That's not an issue and you know it.

I know the facts behind the decision by the council to give Rovers a long lease, but apparently the other person does not jusging by their comments.

I can't go screw latest accounts from the management company for the last financial year. Are they still losing the same money? More importantly what is the turnover?

We don't know, this is becuase their financial year end is 31/05 so there are no accounts for the season just gone which is the first one that they played whilst in control of the Stadium Management Company. Weren't we offered a rent deal circa £400,000 for our 32,000 seater stadium plus 100% cross invoice of the F&B revenues?

 

[James Smith]

Come on now even I cant argue with them its obvious

1.2million rent x 5 years = 69 million if I can see it why cant you?

All figures supplied by Sisu School of economics.
The above are all degree hoders of that esteemed establishment

I must have their accountant do my tax return!:facepalm:

 

[CJ_covblaze]

I must have their accountant do my tax return!:facepalm:

Once you're done I'll borrow him too