Fisher & Compass (4 Viewers)

[Noggin]

Charltons gates were very significantly higher than ours, no doubt the reason Fisher chose them. about 6 or 7k higher on average. So thats why there sales were much higher.

That whole segment was pure spin, he was saying compass only make 20% margin and charlton made 40% margin (lets assume he was telling the truth as rare an event as that is) so why would we buy into that? why not buy into it and improve the efficency yourselves?

Edit - beaten too it by jack, I wrote the post 20 mins ago and then got a phone call.

 

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[RPHunt]

Charltons F&B alleged £1.8M turnover with 40% margin was achieved with crowds averaging over 15,600 and at London prices (no doubt the staff there are paid no more than minimum wage so the profit potential is greater). The basic information is here, http://swissramble.blogspot.co.uk/2011/11/charlton-athletic-into-valley.html

City's crowds in D3 were 10,700, the sales were c. £0.8M, so even if the margin was doubled the total profit would be £320K... but the loss of 1000 tickets on the gate at £20 for 24 matches is worth over £500K.

Good find Jack.

I wonder how much of this comes from non match day sales - The Valley is used for conferences, weddings, parties etc, the University of Greenwich has a college attached and there is a fitness club, crèche, croupiers school, etc. A mini Ricoh!

 

[Jack Griffin]

Now lets do a calculation based on the losses on ticket sales for moving to a venue outside Coventry for 3 years.

By TF's own admission Dan Walker is putting together some packages including an element for travel.
TF also said that one scenario is that the team do well and the crowds would be c.7000 (utter nonsense of course the crowds will be more like 2000 if that, but lets go with it as a basis for calculation)

So lose 3300 crowd for 3 years multiplied by £20 per ticket and times 24 matches that is £4.7M and add to that the 7000 at (lets say £3/ticket lower than at the Ricoh, due to additional travel costs & lower attractiveness that is another £1.5M ... how many years of owned F&B operation are required to make up for that total loss of £6.2M? And that is Mr Fishers optimistic scenario...

Lets redo that sum with a more realistic estimate of crowd, 3000... loss of 7700 ticket sales at £20 is about £11M, then loss on value of tickets sold about another £0.6M.. a grand total exceeding £11.5M for that move..

So now we have losses of £70M going north of £80M and nothing has so far been spent for building the proposed new ground..

 

[oldskyblue58]

I am not sure it is even that Noggin...... I think TF implied the £100k as a 10% margin on the F&B sales, it isnt it is slice that would have been made available to CCFC at no cost....... IEC/Compass would take a margin too.

If you did a normal Sales less purchases (and wages at min wage levels) I bet the margin is much higher. CCFC are not equipped to run it themselves so would need to bring in staff to operate and manage it themselves if they didnt have someone like Compass to do it.

Isnt TF suggesting that the stadium should be run by stadium specialists ? how would that work? would it be any different to now ? Compass run a lot of other venues does that not make them specialists?

http://www.compass-group.co.uk/Key-facts.htm

 

[grego_gee]

Have you found it yet grego-gee...I was just wondering....?

note 15 ACL accounts to 31/05/12

I was going to say
"Thanks ob,
I was worried for a minute!"

but when I looked it up i got this



Which does show your comment (but its buried pretty deep and I'm surprised you dug it out! or even noticed it)

I was more concerned about this cash flow,



I'm no accountant but to me it seems to be saying ACL lost £1m in the previous year (2011) and would have lost £1.3m the current year (2012) if not for the exceptional income of £4m for the creation of IEC....

but then I suppose that is consistent with YB calling in the mortgage,

Then again it doesn't really seem consistent with ACL saying they are not dependent on CCFC does it?

imp:

 

[grego_gee]

no i think you have that wrong.. and i think you've misunderstood the OP here too.. as your saying completly the oppsoite

As the original post said..

"The FFP figure btw was not going to be 100k it was going to be somewhere over £800k which would be the F& B turnover on match days. CCFC would take a commission/profit of £100k on the deal, all costs of supply being met by IEC"

so we would be able to include the full turnover of 800k for FFP benefit.. FFP is based on turnover, not net profit ( as i understand it ).. and the 100K would have then been the actual monetary "kick back" that ACL would give the club as a sweetener towards reducing the level of rent charged.. this a totally separate amount & different issue to the level of FFP benefit built into the deal.

I think you are right, I stand corrected!
it should be turnover for FFP perhaps that should be re-put to TF.

imp:

 

[James Smith]

I was going to say
"Thanks ob,
I was worried for a minute!"

but when I looked it up i got this

View attachment 2081

Which does show your comment (but its buried pretty deep and I'm surprised you dug it out! or even noticed it)

I was more concerned about this cash flow,

View attachment 2082

I'm no accountant but to me it seems to be saying ACL lost £1m in the previous year (2011) and would have lost £1.3m the current year (2012) if not for the exceptional income of £4m for the creation of IEC....

but then I suppose that is consistent with YB calling in the mortgage,

Then again it doesn't really seem consistent with ACL saying they are not dependent on CCFC does it?

imp:

OSB did a write up of the accounts here

Just some brief details from the accounts with a little commentary(in italics). Make of it what you will.

- The accounts are not qualified by the auditors, nor do they have an emphasis of matter detailing going concern issues. That implies the auditors had no issues on going concern of ACL as at 27th February 2013 (date they signed off) The directors detail in the notes what they considered to produce on a going concern basis - the auditors concurred

- Principal risk factor to ACL business was identified as CCFC, but aim of ACL is to be independent from the volatility of football industry - no surprise there then

- Directors report includes details that ACL benefited from £1m of Olympic related infra structure im provements (roads and access work i guess). ACL themselves spent £609k on new fixed assets.

- Turnover up from £6.66m to £7.78m (1.3m in both years from ccfc i assume = 16.7% in 2012)...... total costs up from £6.2m to £6.7m

- net assets (the difference between total assets and total liabilities) improved from £1.5m to £6.6m. Profit and loss reserves improved from -£2m to + £2.2m. No new shares issued in ACL - shares are £3516112 split 50:50 between council and charity. No dividend has been paid by ACL to its stakeholders

- *edit Group total liabilities have fallen from 26.4m in 2011 to 23.4m in 2012 a reduction in total debt of £3m which is more than the capital payments on the bank loan (cica 600k)............would be interesting to see the movement on the SBS&L Group for the same period

- New subsidiary IEC Experience limited formed 20/04/12. Owned 77% by ACL and 23% by Compass. Compass paid £4m premium on the shares. IEC bought a licence of hospitality, catering and FM rights at the Ricoh from ACL for next 15 years, ACL is using that money to finance improvements to conferencing and hotel rooms

- staff costs up from £1.01 m to £1.43m. Directors pay 256K (highest paid director £202k) NO payments made to the directors appointed by Council or Charity.

- At 31/05/12 ACL owed Yorkshire bank £15.6m which was repaid with the £14.4m loan via the Council (stakeholder funding borrowings - that is no different to CCFC)

- The rent deposit scheme (escrow) stood at 315218 at 31/05/12 previous year it was 536558. ACL can not draw any of this down until CCFC defaults on the rent clearly CCFC doesnt seem to have paid rent April & May 2012

- ACL have capital commitments at 31/05/12 for improvements to the site of £1.8m

- cash at bank and in hand £3,876,141 at 31/05/12 (was 1,210,382 year before)


Clearly there could be difficult times ahead for ACL if CCFC fold or leave - however none of the above indicates "a failing business" as we have been led to believe

Going forward to 2013 accounts those will include earnings from the Olympics, the remaining draw down on the Rent deposit account 315k, match day cost contributions £300k, savings on the interest payable on the loans say 200K, wages savings due to functions transferred to IEC say £500k and a potential bad debt of £1.3m because of CCFC. just my guess obviously and assuming similar turnover but looks like ACL will be profitable in 2013 also

I am sure everyone will draw their own conclusions in a way that suits them

Italic's replaced by Bolding

http://www.skybluestalk.co.uk/threads/27773-ACL-Group-2012-accounts/page3