Implications of ACL rejecting CVA (2 Viewers)

BrisbaneBronco

Well-Known Member
Does anyone know for sure what happens next should ACL reject CVA

Does Limited continue in admin under Appleton
If so can he do deal to play at Ricoh
Does Limited get liquidated, if so by who
At what point do we get a further points deduction
Who gets issued GS if the place of origin ie Limited is liquidated
Understand that GS not transferable
Can rejection of CVA stop or slow down sale to Otium
Can staying in admin stop ground share

Answers greatly received as it would help me understand whether there would be any benefit to CCFC should ACL reject CVA:confused:
 

Otis

Well-Known Member
I can hearing differing stories.

Would be great it someone could give a definitive answer.






If there is one.
 

Astute

Well-Known Member
Liquidation is a last resort.

I am sure that if more of the debts would be paid by another takeover than liquidation then that would be the way to go. We don't have much in the way of anything of value. Appleton seems to be a bitch of SISU though.

The problem we have is that SISU have made such a tangled web of our club. Who would make a serious bid not knowing what they are bidding for? But there again ACL have been quiet. Do they know of a buyer if it gets that far? How much would need to be bid to cover more than liquidation? Could they be sure it would happen?

If we were saved they would get the golden share. It don't belong to SISU. The only problem is that every answer uncovers even more questions :(
 

BrisbaneBronco

Well-Known Member
If ACL reject it, then it's the end of our Club!

IMHO!

Then my next question would be

If a new club is set up, what would be the entry point in FL ladder.

There must be common sense here. Liquidation would not be the result of league debts/Inland Revenue debts etc, just a petty rent issue.
 

rupert_bear

Well-Known Member
Not sure what the implications could be, is liquidation the end ? I am certain I have heard liquidated companies have carried on trading albeit in a different name. Also if sisu went that way what will they do about the Holdings employees which includes the players, there are contracts to honour. The players union may get involved then. But yes it would be nice to get an expert view point.

As I see it at the moment rejecting the cva is our last throw of the dice
 

Sisued

New Member
Didnt the FL say that the golden share resides within ltd and that it couldnt be transfered?
Otium have bid for the 'assets' contained within Ltd but not the company itself?

Its even more confusing than before.

Just bear in mind that this is what SISU specalise in. Researching SISu finds very little other than court actions with companies heading into insolvency. I'm not sure if there would be a potential case for the fraud squad to investigate though if it could be proven that the SISU owned copmpanies involved deliberately manipulated events in order to get out of paying their debts. After all by buying their own company they are saying they have access to the funds to pay the debts.....


ahhh i just read the fraud thread...i should have posted there
 
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lifelongcityfan

Well-Known Member
I was told that SISU fear liquidation the most, as it would involve a more detailed review of the accounts etc and seriously expose Fisher.
I understand that ACL are seriosly considering this.... personally I support it
 

Mucca Mad Boys

Well-Known Member
It is also a stick Mr Fisher has waved on two occasions now.

So have ACL - see PHWK's quote.


Then my next question would be

If a new club is set up, what would be the entry point in FL ladder.

There must be common sense here. Liquidation would not be the result of league debts/Inland Revenue debts etc, just a petty rent issue.

Exactly, that's why our club won't cease to exist.

Btw, if we were to go down that route, a Phoenix club would start several leagues below Non-League and would take a decade of straight promotions to get to where we are now - is it worth it? Hell no, SISU won't be there for that long.
 
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CCFC_GT

New Member
Posts yesterday by PWKH regarding the Option by SISU to purchase the Higgs half share of the Ricoh:-

"The Option is in CCFC Ltd. It has been shown in the accounts of other entities owned by Sisu and linked to CCFC. It has not been transferred out of CCFC Ltd: for it to be assigned it requires the agreement of the Trustees. This agreement has not been sought by Sisu or by the Administrator. Sisu did not trigger the Option last summer. At present the Option is in the hands of the Administrator. It cannot be triggered if CCFC Ltd owe any money to ACL."

"As I understand it, (and the Trustees have not yet taken advice because the parts are still moving and there is no point in spending any money on lawyers until they stop moving) if the CVA is accepted Ltd can continue or it can be liquidated. If it is liquidated the Option dies. What will not happen, it seems, is that Ltd will be sold to Otium. Appleton has accepted an offer from Otium for whatever the assets are, not for the company itself. If Otium bought Ltd they would be buying the lease and licence at the Ricoh...
As I say, the parts are still moving around and what is today's situation may well not be tomorrow's."
 

Mucca Mad Boys

Well-Known Member
Must have missed that. Do you have a link?

"The Board of ACL has already issued a Statutory Demand for payment, the deadline for which has long since passed, and is now looking at its legal options. These legal options include petitioning the courts to grant an order to wind up CCFC and starting off the process of placing the Club into compulsory liquidation."

http://www.coventrycity-mad.co.uk/news/tmnw/even_more_stability_for_acl__knatchbullhugessen_779242/index.shtml

The context doesn't matter, it's the fact that he said it, like Fisher, yet people ignore this. Both sides are guilty for this mess - the sooner the fans realise, the better, as it's only us who will ever lose.
 

Sky Blues

Active Member
Posts yesterday by PWKH regarding the Option by SISU to purchase the Higgs half share of the Ricoh:-

"The Option is in CCFC Ltd. It has been shown in the accounts of other entities owned by Sisu and linked to CCFC. It has not been transferred out of CCFC Ltd: for it to be assigned it requires the agreement of the Trustees. This agreement has not been sought by Sisu or by the Administrator. Sisu did not trigger the Option last summer. At present the Option is in the hands of the Administrator. It cannot be triggered if CCFC Ltd owe any money to ACL."

"As I understand it, (and the Trustees have not yet taken advice because the parts are still moving and there is no point in spending any money on lawyers until they stop moving) if the CVA is accepted Ltd can continue or it can be liquidated. If it is liquidated the Option dies. What will not happen, it seems, is that Ltd will be sold to Otium. Appleton has accepted an offer from Otium for whatever the assets are, not for the company itself. If Otium bought Ltd they would be buying the lease and licence at the Ricoh...
As I say, the parts are still moving around and what is today's situation may well not be tomorrow's."

Thanks GT. I'm not sure I read that as a clear threat by ACL to liquidate the club.
 
8 Leagues below where we are

Not necessarily... When my club Chester City was liquidated, we appealed
the decision to demote us 8 leagues. The F.A upon hearing our appeal
overturned the orignal rule and we were demoted three divisions. Since
reforming as a fan owned club, we have achieved 3 promotions in our first
3 seasons and will start life this season in the Football Conference... the
league we were in orignally when the club was liquidated.
 

Mucca Mad Boys

Well-Known Member
Did Rangers drop to the bottom ?
I don't think they did so I guess L1

It's completely different, Rangers are the biggest club in Scotland (well, most successful domestic team, I dislike the SPL, but I prefer Celtic to Rangers for the record), so they had to take that into consideration, CCFC are merely a mediocre football club - I hate to say it, but it's true, 1 major trophy and no top 6 finish for 43 odd years?

Also, the Scottish system is different to ours, they don't have a pyramid system like ours, so Scottish Div 3 was probably the lowest they could send Rangers.
 

rupert_bear

Well-Known Member
Posts yesterday by PWKH regarding the Option by SISU to purchase the Higgs half share of the Ricoh:-

"The Option is in CCFC Ltd. It has been shown in the accounts of other entities owned by Sisu and linked to CCFC. It has not been transferred out of CCFC Ltd: for it to be assigned it requires the agreement of the Trustees. This agreement has not been sought by Sisu or by the Administrator. Sisu did not trigger the Option last summer. At present the Option is in the hands of the Administrator. It cannot be triggered if CCFC Ltd owe any money to ACL."

"As I understand it, (and the Trustees have not yet taken advice because the parts are still moving and there is no point in spending any money on lawyers until they stop moving) if the CVA is accepted Ltd can continue or it can be liquidated. If it is liquidated the Option dies. What will not happen, it seems, is that Ltd will be sold to Otium. Appleton has accepted an offer from Otium for whatever the assets are, not for the company itself. If Otium bought Ltd they would be buying the lease and licence at the Ricoh...
As I say, the parts are still moving around and what is today's situation may well not be tomorrow's."
Have read the above, twice but still not clear. In simple terms and in your opinion is rejecting the cva a viable option and is it dangerous to our long term or even short term future
 

Sky Blues

Active Member
"The Board of ACL has already issued a Statutory Demand for payment, the deadline for which has long since passed, and is now looking at its legal options. These legal options include petitioning the courts to grant an order to wind up CCFC and starting off the process of placing the Club into compulsory liquidation."

http://www.coventrycity-mad.co.uk/news/tmnw/even_more_stability_for_acl__knatchbullhugessen_779242/index.shtml

The context doesn't matter, it's the fact that he said it, like Fisher, yet people ignore this. Both sides are guilty for this mess - the sooner the fans realise, the better, as it's only us who will ever lose.

He does list it as a legal option open to them if Sisu continue not to pay the rent, but says nobody wants it. I'll include the context so people can make up their own mind:

Even More Stability For ACL - Knatchbull-Hugessen
16 Jan 2013

The Higgs Charity View
Peter Knatchbull-Hugessen, clerk to the Trustees of the Alan Edward Higgs Charity, feels that the £14m bail out of the Ricoh Arena by Coventry City Council has given Arena Coventry Limited even more stability.
Mr Knatchbull-Hugessen posted on Sky Blues Talk:
"It has been difficult keeping quiet, having information and not being able to share it. The Coventry Telegraph will have more I am sure about what has happened this afternoon.

"We have been working hard to do what any business should do when faced with such a serious challenge as ACL has faced with Sisu’s rent strike. I am sure that many of you will have heard the news that Coventry City Council has made an agreement with Yorkshire Bank for the Council to pay off the debt Arena Coventry Limited previously owed to the Bank. The Council will now make a loan to ACL of £14.4m, which will make repayments to the Council at an interest rate much more affordable for ACL as a business. You will have other questions about how much, how long, what rate of interest etc, at the moment I am unable to answer as they remain under commercial confidentiality.

"The agreement gives ACL’s already strong business even more stability. It means that the Board of Directors can plan for the long term with more confidence than ever. The people of Coventry will also benefit as the interest on the repayments made by ACL will be available to the Council to spend on goods and services. This is a decisive move by the Council to secure the long-term future of the Ricoh Arena as an asset for the City of Coventry and a decision which ought to be welcomed and applauded by everyone posting on this forum.I am already receiving calls and messages asking me what this means with regard to the situation with Coventry City Football Club. The short answer is that nothing has changed. CCFC, under the ownership of Joy Seppala and her Sisu staff including Tim Fisher, has a legal obligation to pay its stadium rent. The Board of ACL has already issued a Statutory Demand for payment, the deadline for which has long since passed, and is now looking at its legal options. These legal options include petitioning the courts to grant an order to wind up CCFC and starting off the process of placing the Club into compulsory liquidation. Nobody wants this to be the outcome, but the clock is ticking and now is the time when Joy Seppala and her colleagues need finally to take responsibility for their actions, pay the rent which is lawfully owed, and come to the table with the Board of ACL to present a realistic business and financing plan which will safeguard the future of CCFC.

"And why wouldn’t they want to do this? The City Council has just presented them with an opportunity to build a better business relationship with an outstanding business which is in an enviable and sustainable financial position. Everyone at ACL is absolutely committed to seeing the Sky Blues play at the Ricoh Arena for many years to come. My appeal to Sisu is therefore a simple one; please come and have a sensible conversation. And please stop trying to blame all the Club’s financial problems on the stadium rent, while drawing misleading and inaccurate comparisons between the rent paid by CCFC and that paid by other Football League One clubs, none of whom enjoy the benefits of a facility comparable to the Ricoh Arena.From the Higgs Charity’s perspective as a shareholder, we are completely in support of the Council’s move today. I am sure there will be speculation also about the Charity’s intentions in relation to holding on to its stake holding in ACL. Some of you may even feel that this would be a sensible time for Sisu to make a realistic offer to assume the Charity’s share.Again our position is unchanged. The trustees are proud to be part of ACL and we’re committed to the Arena for as long as it takes. We won’t be bullied or harassed by anyone trying to take our share in the business for less than its true value. But, if any third party makes a sensible and realistic offer, then we will of course give it the consideration it merits. Once again I apologise for the length of this update. I would of course have preferred to share this sooner but I am bound by the obligations of the law and of confidentiality on this hugely sensitive matter. As ever, I am happy to answer questions where I am able to do so."
 

Sky Blue Pete

Well-Known Member
"The Board of ACL has already issued a Statutory Demand for payment, the deadline for which has long since passed, and is now looking at its legal options. These legal options include petitioning the courts to grant an order to wind up CCFC and starting off the process of placing the Club into compulsory liquidation."

http://www.coventrycity-mad.co.uk/news/tmnw/even_more_stability_for_acl__knatchbullhugessen_779242/index.shtml

The context doesn't matter, it's the fact that he said it, like Fisher, yet people ignore this. Both sides are guilty for this mess - the sooner the fans realise, the better, as it's only us who will ever lose.

Mate-there is blame to be apportioned but it is not equal. Just accepting that would make you seem more credible
 

jimmyhillsfanclub

Well-Known Member
I've asked the following question several times, but as yet, no-one has been able to answer it.

If ACL reject the CVA.....Then initially CCFC remain in Admin.

The FL can then "make CCFC an offer" to exit Admin.....but with additional penalties such as further points deductions etc.

My question: At this point, can CCFC refuse this "offer" from the FL & continue to operate in Admin or is it an "offer they can't refuse"?

Anyone any idea??
 

Sky Blues

Active Member
No ACL went for administration so as to stop the threat of liquidation by SISU

That's what PWKH said and it makes sense as an explanation when you think about the rules trustees, directors etc have to operate under.

I was wondering if Taylor might be getting mixed up with the administration-because-of-Fisher's-threat-of-liquidation business, but the quote a post or two above does demonstrate he was not.
 

ashbyjan

Well-Known Member
I think there are two threads getting mixed up here. PWKH is saying that the option is in Ltd and when Otium having secured CCFC Ltd (as we all suspect they will) liquidate CCFC Ltd the option to buy the Higgs shares dies with that liquidation.

As I understand it the rejection of a CVA does not mean the death of CCFC it would mean a 15 pt or so (at FL discretion) penalty for exiting administration without a CVA. As things stand the golden share is likely to be given to Otium as they have bought CCFC Ltd from administrator.
 

letsallsingtogether

Well-Known Member
Yes but we are still too big to drop down that far, as teams would not be able to accommodate us they probably only get about 50 supported every week just look at Rustun and diamonds they have restarted and they have by far the biggest away support in there league.


It's completely different, Rangers are the biggest club in Scotland (well, most successful domestic team, I dislike the SPL, but I prefer Celtic to Rangers for the record), so they had to take that into consideration, CCFC are merely a mediocre football club - I hate to say it, but it's true, 1 major trophy and no top 6 finish for 43 odd years?

Also, the Scottish system is different to ours, they don't have a pyramid system like ours, so Scottish Div 3 was probably the lowest they could send Rangers.
 

RegTheDonk

Well-Known Member
Not necessarily... When my club Chester City was liquidated, we appealed
the decision to demote us 8 leagues. The F.A upon hearing our appeal
overturned the orignal rule and we were demoted three divisions. Since
reforming as a fan owned club, we have achieved 3 promotions in our first
3 seasons and will start life this season in the Football Conference... the
league we were in orignally when the club was liquidated.

Thanks for the insight Chester. Unfortunately, that just shows the FL make it up as they go along. They've ignored a few of their own rules during this take over.

IF the club is liquidated, the fans would obviously lose CCFC, but surely SISU would be the ultimate losers with the amount of money they have alledgedly put in? ACL would lose a million or so back rent, but Coventry would have some club to support, be it the Sphynx or United - or a brand new Phoenix club.

If they played at the Ricoh, doubtless they would get a few thousand come and watch. SISU, on the other hand, can't exactly start a brand new club at Northampton or wherever and expect a fan base in league godknowshowlow.
 

Sky Blues

Active Member
I think there are two threads getting mixed up here. PWKH is saying that the option is in Ltd and when Otium having secured CCFC Ltd (as we all suspect they will) liquidate CCFC Ltd the option to buy the Higgs shares dies with that liquidation.

As I understand it the rejection of a CVA does not mean the death of CCFC it would mean a 15 pt or so (at FL discretion) penalty for exiting administration without a CVA. As things stand the golden share is likely to be given to Otium as they have bought CCFC Ltd from administrator.

From memory, my understanding of what Mr Fisher told Shane O'Connor yesterday was that they (Sisu) would liquidate it if the CVA was not agreed. I think I noted this on the "here comes fisher thread" and someone else concurred with my understanding - though I am happy to hear other interpretations.
 
Rangers do not exist any more they died - They cheated many in Scottish football for years and got their just desserts, their web was very tangled non payment of tax, side contracts for players they couldn't afford ect...

btw when THE RANGERS win a European Cup...they can talk of being successful, at this moment in time they have won one league title...and if we liquidate we lose our history too, but I would rather that than stay with shitsu!!


It's completely different, Rangers are the biggest club in Scotland (well, most successful domestic team, I dislike the SPL, but I prefer Celtic to Rangers for the record), so they had to take that into consideration, CCFC are merely a mediocre football club - I hate to say it, but it's true, 1 major trophy and no top 6 finish for 43 odd years?

Also, the Scottish system is different to ours, they don't have a pyramid system like ours, so Scottish Div 3 was probably the lowest they could send Rangers.
 

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