Acl back on cwr again (3 Viewers)

[jesus-wept]

It seems everyone missed it. If ACL do not sign the CVA then ltd is liquidated and still CCFC are retained under holdings as the share has been agreed in principal to be transferred.

Given that ACL must consider its shareholders (as we are always told) I cannot see any conclusion that means they will not agree to it.

Not absolutely true, but can be an option. All parties at that creditors meeting can request a 28 day what they call cooling off period. That will take us passed the Bristol match, the FL won't sanction any ground share while we are in administration, so that's when the fun begins probably from the 23rd of July. There are battles on a number of fronts in this issue, at the moment the crucial one is not going to Sixfields, what a bloody nose that will be for Mr Fisher.

 

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[Godiva]

Any talk about an interim deal to play at the RA will start from scratch - they will not just pick up where they left half a year ago.
So forget all previous figures and addons, they are not relevant.

 

[James Smith]

Any talk about an interim deal to play at the RA will start from scratch - they will not just pick up where they left half a year ago.
So forget all previous figures and addons, they are not relevant.

But Young Timothy reportedly said could all be OK if ACL go back to the terms agreed in August 2012 at the CCLSG. I assume that position has now changed, and if ACL did go back to these terms it would still be no deal?

 

[Godiva]

But Young Timothy reportedly said could all be OK if ACL go back to the terms agreed in August 2012 at the CCLSG. I assume that position has now changed, and if ACL did go back to these terms it would still be no deal?

Look at it through the eyes of ACL. Do you honestly think they will offer a cheap deal on a three year contract? Why would they?
If any negotiation actually happens the foundation would be a fixed rent cost per match. Sisu would suggest they pay similar to what they will pay in Northampton - ACL will say they need a little more as there will be more supporters through the gates of RA than of Sixfields. Sisu will say they need to compensate Northampton - ACL will say thats your problem, the fans want you here not 30miles away.
And so on. Where they would end up Heaven knows.

Anyway, there the CVA to overcome first. If ACL do not sign, any talks are dead before they start.

 

[Mary_Mungo_Midge]

I wonder in what context and with what authority Fisher has signed the agreement with regards the use of Sixfields in any case? Until we exit administration, which currently we haven't, then surely it's all in the hands of the administrator? Whilst in administration, a club can't ground-share in any case.

Optium's balance sheet is worth nothing, so presumably Northampton would have sought a PCG from SISU against he value of the contract. Or at least the cancellation value.

And if ACL veto the CVA exit; what value any agreement with Northampton then?

 

[stupot07]

That is errant nonsense old bean, the club have already been offered ACL's cut of matchday F&B, which is 77% thereof.. Compass only get 23%

No they haven't, they have offered a mechanism of cross invoicing which would allow the club to put the income on paper towards ffp but ACL get the actual money.

 

[mark82]

I wouldn't even grace that with an answer now

Grace what with an answer? I remembered him saying he had done some work for, I thought, ACL. I was wrong - it was Higgs. I wasn't that far off. I was purely asking to gauge whether OSB had any inside knowledge of what was going on. He confirmed it was a one off so obviously not. Not exactly an accusation.

 

[Mary_Mungo_Midge]

No they haven't, they have offered a mechanism of cross invoicing which would allow the club to put the income on paper towards ffp but ACL get the actual money.

The cross invoicing was for the total income to assist turnover and FFP.

ACL also offered a meeting with the Compass JV to look at income splitting, which Fishet didn't take up

 

[dongonzalos]

Grace what with an answer? I remembered him saying he had done some work for, I thought, ACL. I was wrong - it was Higgs. I wasn't that far off. I was purely asking to gauge whether OSB had any inside knowledge of what was going on. He confirmed it was a one off so obviously not. Not exactly an accusation.

If it was genuine apologies

You may have missed all the bull on the forum about this yesterday.

 

[stupot07]

The cross invoicing was for the total income to assist turnover and FFP.

ACL also offered a meeting with the Compass JV to look at income splitting, which Fishet didn't take up

Yes turnover and ffp, but we wouldn't see a penny. Saying acl offered ccfc their share of F&b's is slightly disingenuous.

 

[Mary_Mungo_Midge]

Yes turnover and ffp, but we wouldn't see a penny. Saying acl offered ccfc their share of F&b's is slightly disingenuous.

No. They offered cross invoicing in its totality to augment turnover and help with FFP.

They also, desperate issue, agreed to share the proceeds of their margin so that SISU would genuinely earn cash, not just turnover credit. They offered to establish a meeting with the Compass JV to negotiate what this could be.

Fisher refused. It's recorded on one of the forums. I'm sure he mentioned a figure of 10%, which he considered negligible. I think he said something like 'why bother?' to Linnel. The point is, he never even looked at what it could be.

Nothing disingenuous with either this, or my previous statement

 

[shmmeee]

No. They offered cross invoicing in its totality to augment turnover and help with FFP.

They also, desperate issue, agreed to share the proceeds of their margin so that SISU would genuinely earn cash, not just turnover credit. They offered to establish a meeting with the Compass JV to negotiate what this could be.

Fisher refused. It's recorded on one of the forums. I'm sure he mentioned a figure of 10%, which he considered negligible. I think he said something like 'why bother?' to Linnel. The point is, he never even looked at what it could be.

Nothing disingenuous with either this, or my previous statement

Thanks. Saved me a post.

Fisher was entirely dismissive at the forum of this deal yet it was everything they claim they need. Add in the flat out refusal to talk to ACL, the blatant lies to the FL (exposed by ACL) and the refusal to consider Hoffmans deal and it all adds up to irrefutable evidence that Sisu are not moving to Northampton for the clubs benefit.

Ill leave the question of why they are moving open. Because I haven't a fcking clue. They're certainly never going to get the Ricoh after all this malarkey.

 

[stupot07]

No. They offered cross invoicing in its totality to augment turnover and help with FFP.

They also, desperate issue, agreed to share the proceeds of their margin so that SISU would genuinely earn cash, not just turnover credit. They offered to establish a meeting with the Compass JV to negotiate what this could be.

Fisher refused. It's recorded on one of the forums. I'm sure he mentioned a figure of 10%, which he considered negligible. I think he said something like 'why bother?' to Linnel. The point is, he never even looked at what it could be.

Nothing disingenuous with either this, or my previous statement

I refer back to Jack's post to with I originally quoted/responded to:

That is errant nonsense old bean, the club have already been offered ACL's cut of matchday F&B, which is 77% thereof.. Compass only get 23%

As I said, no they haven't and to say they have is disingenuous. Whether or not they offered a meeting with compass is a different argument....I would question whether ACL and compass know what they are doing, given that they only made £100k profit against £1m spent on f&B's.

 

[James Smith]

I refer back to Jack's post to with I originally quoted/responded to:



As I said, no they haven't and to say they have is disingenuous. Whether or not they offered a meeting with compass is a different argument....I would question whether ACL and compass know what they are doing, given that they only made £100k profit against £1m spent on f&B's.

Just done a search and found this which seems to say ACL were offering F&B revenues or at least some of them in this thread http://www.skybluestalk.co.uk/threa...mp-A-email?p=377297&highlight=FOOD#post377297

The Club still has the right to gain access to the revenues at the Ricoh. This comes with ownership of shares in ACL. This was agreed from the start. When they sold their shares to the Higgs Charity they got the money they needed to avoid administration and start the next season along with the right to buy back their shares. Nobody has told them they couldn’t buy back those shares: they have chosen not to.
Back in 2008 and 2009 I had two meetings with Onye Igwe when he told me that the Charity had to sell their shares to the Club and he would tell me how much they would pay. He also told me of the Club’s exciting plans to expand the supporter base in Nigeria and China. It was an odd way to approach the matter but I said nothing but waited for him to come back with a price. He was, I suspect, ignoring the option which gave the Club the right to buy for a fixed sum. I heard nothing more and then he was removed. Ken Dulieu then appeared and I met him in London for him also to say that the Club was going to buy the shares. Nothing happened and he disappeared.
Tim Fisher talks about the need to increase the revenues of the Club. He suggests that the Club has a right to them. He is correct. They have a right to buy them back. Only the Club has an Option to buy them.
The Charity paid the Club for those shares. The Charity must hope to make a return, either through an increase in value or through an income, from those shares. There has, of course, been no income at all from those shares yet. Tim Fisher now wants some of that income simply to be given to the Club because it needs it. It is clear that the Club needs more income and ACL had offered to give up some income: the food and beverage revenues everyone refers to.
I fear that just as that offer is now withdrawn the possibility of the Club now buying back into ACL has receded.
To make the businesses at the Ricoh work efficiently they have to work together in harmony and with trust. That began to happen under Ray Ranson and the Club was able to make savings and increase its income. Perhaps if his influence had been strong enough to stop the Club being distracted by ideas of business expansion in Nigeria and China and he had kept the owners concentrated on buying back into ACL we would not all be locked into this destructive spiral.

http://www.skybluestalk.co.uk/threads/27281-Tom-Fisher-Q-amp-A-email?p=377297&viewfull=1#post377297

 

[dongonzalos]

Yes turnover and ffp, but we wouldn't see a penny. Saying acl offered ccfc their share of F&b's is slightly disingenuous.

I thought we only needed it due to FFP

 

[stupot07]

Just done a search and found this which seems to say ACL were offering F&B revenues or at least some of them in this thread http://www.skybluestalk.co.uk/threa...mp-A-email?p=377297&highlight=FOOD#post377297



http://www.skybluestalk.co.uk/threads/27281-Tom-Fisher-Q-amp-A-email?p=377297&viewfull=1#post377297

Yet, in the Q and A with the trust, their official answer was:

ACL would be willing to give CCFC full details of the F & B accounts and were prepared to go open book and even allow CCFC to use the revenue figures in the clubs FFP calculations

 

[stupot07]

I thought we only needed it due to FFP

You're right, we don't have financial losses pretty much every season. We don't need any actual profit to feed back into the business.

 

[SkyblueBazza]

No they haven't, they have offered a mechanism of cross invoicing which would allow the club to put the income on paper towards ffp but ACL get the actual money.

Isn't that the way SISU like to operate their accounts?

 

[deanocity3]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s5gc3bGFmrw
yesterdays interview with pkh
then the listen again from today 18/07/13
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p01c6hmm on after 1 hour 20mins

 

[James Smith]

Yet, in the Q and A with the trust, their official answer was:

ACL would be willing to give CCFC full details of the F & B accounts and were prepared to go open book and even allow CCFC to use the revenue figures in the clubs FFP calculations

I may be wrong but I read points 11 and 12 from the Q&A together.

11: Have there been detailed discussions regarding match day income and what revenues CCFC want access to?
ACL: Yes
CCFC: Yes


12: £100,000 has been publicised as the value of food and beverage income – is this 50% of the profits i.e. ACL’s half from the EIC joint venture?ACL: In principle – we have all accepted that more work is needed on the detail of this, and it needs to be agreed with ACL’s contracted partner Compass, so it is not simply in ACL’s gift. Of course match-day income is also influenced by attendances, these we have seen drop from an average of 13,126 in 11/12 to a current year to date average of 9,259Match-day F&B Turnover in 11/12 season was £1,010,992, with Nett Profit of £119,903.ACL would be willing to give CCFC full details of the F & B accounts and were prepared to go open book and even allow CCFC to use the revenue figures in the clubs FFP calculations?CCFC: CCFC would have to negotiate with ACL partner Compass but if after 3 months Compass would not agree access to this level of revenue indicated by ACL, we would ask that the rent be reduced by £100k​

And assumed that the fact they are willing to go open book, is just to prove that ACL aren't trying to get one over on SISU by being 'inaccurate' with the F&B figures in relation to those matchday revenues that ACL were willing to cede to SISU/CCFC that were under discussion in the negotiations. I may be totally wrong on this but that was my interpretation based on the Q&A and what PWKH posted,

It is clear that the Club needs more income and ACL had offered to give up some income: the food and beverage revenues everyone refers to.

Happy to be proved wrong and corrected though.

 

[stupot07]

I may be wrong but I read points 11 and 12 from the Q&A together.


And assumed that the fact they are willing to go open book, is just to prove that ACL aren't trying to get one over on SISU by being 'inaccurate' with the F&B figures in relation to those matchday revenues that ACL were willing to cede to SISU/CCFC that were under discussion in the negotiations. I may be totally wrong on this but that was my interpretation based on the Q&A and what PWKH posted,



Happy to be proved wrong and corrected though.

Fair enough,

 

[Jack Griffin]

Just wanted to clear up something

TF went on about Compass owning the catering rights and having paid 4m for them

THE ACTUAL SITUATION IS

ACL own 77% of a company called IEC Experience Limited which operates the stadium for ACL. ACL sold the other 23% to Compass for 4m.

So ACL because it owns more than 75% of IEC is deemed to control that company and its operations. Yes ACL would talk to its fellow shareholder about a change in operations (say to let CCFC have a share of the income, declare the sales as CCFC 's but be reinvoiced etc) but ACL has outright control and could sanction a deal.

The FFP figure btw was not going to be 100k it was going to be somewhere over £800k which would be the F& B turnover on match days. CCFC would take a commission/profit of £100k on the deal, all costs of supply being met by IEC

just as an aside the lease provides the club with 900 car park spaces and a potential income of £207k

Found this as well..

 

[James Smith]

Found this as well..

Just wanted to clear up something

TF went on about Compass owning the catering rights and having paid 4m for them

THE ACTUAL SITUATION IS

ACL own 77% of a company called IEC Experience Limited which operates the stadium for ACL. ACL sold the other 23% to Compass for 4m.

So ACL because it owns more than 75% of IEC is deemed to control that company and its operations. Yes ACL would talk to its fellow shareholder about a change in operations (say to let CCFC have a share of the income, declare the sales as CCFC 's but be reinvoiced etc) but ACL has outright control and could sanction a deal.

The FFP figure btw was not going to be 100k it was going to be somewhere over £800k which would be the F& B turnover on match days. CCFC would take a commission/profit of £100k on the deal, all costs of supply being met by IEC

just as an aside the lease provides the club with 900 car park spaces and a potential income of £207k

But we're getting a better deal at NTFC so that's all right then. :facepalm:

:blue:

 

[Nonleagueherewecome]

You can't call someone crooked without proof. A judge did make some damning remarks about the woman who runs SISU (the lovely Joy) but you can't say someone is a crook without proof. I would suggest in strong terms that you alter your post.

I am very comfortable with my definition of the term in the context it was applied and would more than welcome the exposure of certain behaviours that a court case would bring.

 

[James Smith]

I am very comfortable with my definition of the term in the context it was applied and would more than welcome the exposure of certain behaviours that a court case would bring.

That's fine for you then but they could drag Nick into it as Publisher of the site which is less good.

 

[Nonleagueherewecome]

That's fine for you then but they could drag Nick into it as Publisher of the site which is less good.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/crooked

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/crooked



I think "dishonest or unscrupulous" and "not straightforward;dishonest" is them to a tee, tbh. Bit surprised there isn't a photo of Joy on that page...oh yeah, forgot, she doesn't do photo's.

 

[Grendel]

That's fine for you then but they could drag Nick into it as Publisher of the site which is less good.

To be fair to you at least you are consistent. I think NLHWC has made potentially defamatory statements and those posts should be removed preferably with a statement of retraction from him.

 

[shmmeee]

Look at it through the eyes of ACL. Do you honestly think they will offer a cheap deal on a three year contract? Why would they?

Really?

Because something is better than nothing. Allowing City to pay only costs would increase F&B and the surrounding areas.

What's the serious alternative if CCFC go elsewhere.

It was often stated that ACL and CCFC needed each other. This hasn't changed, this whole thing is nothing more than hardball tactics.

Why no tickets yet? Because they still want to drive the cost down at the Ricoh. It makes no financial sense to move to Sixfields in the interim for either CCFC or ACL. The only motivations plausible are spite and underhandedness, neither are values I wish in my football club.

 

[Nonleagueherewecome]

To be fair to you at least you are consistent. I think NLHWC has made potentially defamatory statements and those posts should be removed preferably with a statement of retraction from him.

Read the definition of crooked, prick.

 

[dongonzalos]

You're right, we don't have financial losses pretty much every season. We don't need any actual profit to feed back into the business.

Mr Fisher is right

 

[Grendel]

Read the definition of crooked, prick.

Defamatory.

 

[pugwash]

Read the definition of crooked prick.

I googled "crooked prick", mostly got images though.

 

[Nonleagueherewecome]

There was a crooked man, and he walked a crooked mile.
He found a crooked sixpence against a crooked stile.
He bought a crooked cat, which caught a crooked mouse,
And they all lived together in a little crooked house.

So it's Sixpence rather than Sixfield's and a cat not a dog, but I think it's obvious who that's written about