Moff
Well-Known Member
Yep, its ground hog day again..................................... :facepalm:
fisher on CWR now (16 Viewers)
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Yep, its ground hog day again..................................... :facepalm:
stupot07
Well-Known Member
Not really, those who were labelled pro sisu were labelled because they question ACL's role in this debacle.
Question ACL = pro sisu
Why did ACL reject the CVA and liquidate us when they claimed to apply for admin to prevent liquidation? It's ok only another 7 points to 0.
No. The fact that some refrain from the more vitriolic, foaming at the mouth anti-SISU rhetoric has more to do with the fact that they do not posses the somewhat crude two-tone view of the world that you seem to suffer from; an unfortunate affliction that renders the sufferer prone to uncontrollable hyperbolic episodes and the inability to think rationally. Four legs good, two legs bad hey comrade?
Somewhat inevitably, it is very difficult for the blackandwhitists to comprehend the reasoned arguments put forward regarding culpability for this mess by those able to see in shades of grey (or even colour); and so resort to their base instincts and start name calling. A bit like the chimps at Twycross Zoo who hurl shit at onlookers. The mob mentality on here is a living example of evolution in reverse.
Mary_Mungo_Midge
Well-Known Member
They are one and the same - not diametrically opposite. The first was the Directors exercising their fiduciary responsibilities in the best interests of the business they are charged with running, and the second was the Directors exercising their fiduciary responsibilities in the best interests of the business they are charged with running
covcity4life
Well-Known Member
he wont be able to answer
probably just call you tim fisher and move on to the next thread.
Mary_Mungo_Midge
Well-Known Member
It looks as if you decide to type that to look clever without actually reading, or absorbing the words that gave rise to your response.
You accuse me of being binary. Didn't I state 'And is not such leaning - either large or small - 'pro''? Isn't the 'large or small' bit discussing a range of views, and therefore not the digital stance you now claim I have?
Nonleagueherewecome
Well-Known Member
Most of them are labelled it because they either never criticize SISU or because they regularly defend and justify their actions.
D
Deleted member 5849
Guest
Can't get enough of it myself.
But then EVERYTHING you type is seemingly done in an effort to make yourself look clever.
I am actually disappointed that you failed to pick up that I was deliberately trying to mimic that pompous, all-knowing, pseudo-intellectual tone that permeates just about everything you post. I failed clearly. Maybe I would be more at home with those shit-hurling chimps.
And sorry, but your final point is a rather poor attempt at wriggling out of what you said. Your point was, when referring to "those who don't take as harsh a stance in judging their actions as might be expected..", that they are, by definition, 'pro' regardless as to the extent of their leaning. That is nonsense. It is like suggesting that those people who choose not to wave copies of Socialist Worker in the faces of shoppers on a Saturday are somehow pro-Tory as they are not as critical of the Government as they might be. I fear I may just have dipped my toe in the river of crap analogies that runs torrent-like through this website, but I think it stands up.
dongonzalos
Well-Known Member
If I could stick my tongue out at you right now I would
Nonleagueherewecome
Well-Known Member
That's a crap smiley, isn't it? What's he meant to be doing exactly? Doesn't even have a tongue as such, just a gaping maw. Just sort of drooling like a fool who is smug but doesn't really have any reason to be. Must be what Fisher sees in the mirror every morning
There won't be a new ground though, not in the Coventry conurbation, the Kenilworth Road, the market or the fecking Rose and Crown car park, it's all bullshit !
Nonleagueherewecome
Well-Known Member
Hi, Ian Calvert! :wave::wave:
Join the fun and post!
Join the fun and post!
Moff
Well-Known Member
That's a crap smiley, isn't it? What's he meant to be doing exactly? Doesn't even have a tongue as such, just a gaping maw. Just sort of drooling like a fool who is smug but doesn't really have any reason to be. Must be what Fisher sees in the mirror every morning
Well that and his self imagined halo!
Nonleagueherewecome
Well-Known Member
I bet he's so blinded by his Holy Light that he has to play Blinded By The Light to do justice to the mood every morning when he grooms himself in the mirror.
Mary_Mungo_Midge
Well-Known Member
Everything I write is in an effort to get my point of view across. My primary objective is to clearly state my case. If you read that as me trying to look clever, then I can only conclude that you see some worth in what I offer. Some strange psychology you've got going on there.
Let me state my case again. The club is in a worse situation than it's been for many a generation. Financial farce. Crowds one tenth of that which prevailed when SISU arrived, watching games in a different town at a fourth tier venue. I could add annual embargoes, threats of liquidation, uin fact I could carry on all day. But I shan't.
People should be up in arms over this travesty. I mean incandescent with rage. I know I am, and I make no excuses for such.
But there are those who still find mitigation for SISU's actions. Who jump on here if the receptionist at ACL wears the wrong coloured blouse; but who listen to Fisher's cringe-worthy, juvenile and ill-judged 'when ACL give us our 10 points back' on radio this morning, yet remain silent. I'm sorry - but that's leaning by default.
Some people think that who's good for SISU is good for the club. That incomes need to be unified to achieve a better tomorrow. I agree with the notion. Those are the people I think could be marginally supportive of SISU's actions; but with a view to an ultimate goal of selling on to a better owner. But that - like it or not - does give them a pro-SISU leaning. Even if it's caveatted with ther ultimate disappearance. That's what I stated. It's a matter of fact that some people do have a pro-SISU stance. To a greater or lesser extent.
Me? I want what's good for the club. I don't agree wholeheartedly with ACL's actions over the term. However, it was obvious that the Fisher/SISU hardline would get us exactly where it has. Which is why I've been so critical of it.
It gives me no pleasure to see the disastrous results which now sit before us today, reflecting the doomsday predictions many of us made months ago. That's why I was, and remain, so critical of Fisher. He's got it so very, very wrong.
ACL have been vindicated twice now in an independent court of law. I personally see more right in ACL's position than SISU's. So, in many ways, I'd have to say that on many issues I am pro-ACL; as much as anything as they've generally acted properly and lawfully - which for me is behaviour that's most liable to bring about agreement - and that's what I want. Step outside the law, and play foot-loose with the very existence of the club, and there's a mess waiting to happen. Which is where we've ended up
hopesprings
Well-Known Member
No at this stage we must not give up the idea of getting the football league to reconsider their decision. WE MUST keep asking the question HOW did the FL come to this decision. The statement Clark gave was it was with regret and that they had insisted on a £1million to return to the CITY OF COVENTRY now Fisher has categorically stated that this will not be the case the league have a duty and indeed an excuse to re address their initial decision and make them play at the RICOH or take away their right to run a football team in their league!! We must keep on that theme!!
Angry? We're all angry - the only difference is how we choose to channel that anger, and in which direction.
Let's be clear, there is FAR more criticism channeled at SISU on these forums, and that is both understandable and right. I have not seen the same sort of vitriol directed at any ACL or council representative that I have TF, JS or any of the previous SISU stooges. I doubt any ACL representative will be requiring private protection anytime soon.
Do I lay some blame at the door of ACL and CCC? Damn right, and I refer back to events last December.
SISU withheld rent payments while at the same time opening talks about acquiring a 50% stake in ACL. They should not have withheld payments, but their argument at time was that they had real intentions of buying in, and were of the opinion that while that deal went through ACL could draw on the monies in the ESCROW account to cover any shortfall. Not an entirely unreasonable position, and it was never the intention that the dispute would spill into the new year and beyond.
People say they were trying to 'distress' ACL, but the deal on the table at that time was, on the face of it, a decent one. Under the terms of that deal, the council would retain ownership of the freehold and a 50% stake in the management company, and SISU would also have paid off the mortgage, and additionally would bring in external management to better run the events management side of things. What was so bad about the deal? Well, it was agreed to, by all sides, but then the council reneged at the 11th hour. Huge mistake in my opinion. Had that deal gone through, we would not be having this conversation. We would be playing at the Ricoh, there would not have been a transfer embargo, there would have been no administration, no points deductions and Mark Robins might conceivably still be manager. I fail to understand how anybody can argue how that council decision was in the interests of the football club, either short term or long term.
More recently, I have been critical of ACL for refusing to sign the CVA. Nobody has adequately explained how they can possibly benefit from making that decision, and the damage it has caused to the football club in the form of yet another points deduction is clear for all to see.
Two examples of how ACL/CCC have contributed to the ever-worsening situation at this car crash of a football club.
But then, all this has been done to death, and nobody really shifts their position. For most, SISU are entirely to blame, and any attempt to apportion some of the blame elsewhere is met with the usual derision and cries of 'rent-boy' or 'apologist'.
We now have reached a position where the only way forward is that SISU sell up. Let's hope that happens sooner rather than later so that all this nonsense can stop.
Skybluepiglet
New Member
Can't see that happening..and I also see it as our only hope.
It really is starting to feel FINAL....
duffer
Well-Known Member
I don't think anyone right-minded has suggested that TF should be physically attacked. But maybe the hatred of SISU stems from the fact that it's their actions that have led us to Northampton. They've been able to step back from the brink a number of times, and negotiate honestly - but they've refused. Fisher's interview today shows that they they'd rather lose money at Northampton than bring the club to the Ricoh, even on a deal that would make them more money. Why would they do that, unless it's just about breaking ACL?
Actually - that wasn't their argument at that time at all. Their argument at that time was that the rent was too high.
Then, when they got to a negotiated rent of £400k, they moved their position and it became about access to income streams.
Now, when the rent offer apparently stands at £150k, it's about owning the freehold.
How can you tell what their 'intention' ever was?
It seems that at the same time that they were discussing the rent they were busy shifting assets away from CCFC Ltd, whilst at the same time loading it with debt.
If you take those shifting negotiation positions along with the asset transfer and debt load, I think it's not unfair to presume they never intended to negotiate honestly with ACL. Indeed if SISU wanted to buy into ACL they always had the option of doing that via the Higgs Trust share - another deal that SISU walked away from. So what was their real intention here - it doesn't look like it was to do an honest deal, does it?
There's a lot of supposition here as to the terms of the deal and also whether the the council reneged. We're a bit light on evidence regarding what went on, but would SISU getting their hands on the freehold really be in the interests of the football club in any case?
And I don't much care for deal breakers, but look at the proposal here - we'll distress ACL by not paying the rent, and then try to pick up the mortgage on the cheap. That isn't something that the Council should be getting involved in any case, imho, and I wonder if the legal ramifications here caused concern. Either way, it doesn't quite sound like SISU's way of breaking deals, "gentlemen, we have a deal", or stiffing a local charity for money after agreeing HoT.
As for embargos, when was the last time we weren't under one with SISU. Robins went where the money was better, even according to TF.
If SISU pay the rent and/or negotiate honestly, there's no deduction at all. And the point of not signing the CVA is obvious - it allows for a full and proper analysis of CCFC Ltd. There are huge questions here in regard to the conduct of the directors and one particular shadow director. If they are found wanting, then even the FL may have to accept that the club needs new ownership.
Actually, I have shifted my position slightly. We could do without ACL, or at least the Council, banging on about how great a business it is. What they should be doing is to keep the pressure on to move CCFC back. Getting another franchise in is the last thing we want as fans, imho. ACL should be constantly saying, we're ready to talk, the door's always open. FWIW I think CCFC under SISU goes bust long before ACL, but that's not the point - we need a deal done before that happens.
Couldn't agree more - which is personally why I think NOPM is the right strategy.
You're getting your timings mixed up. Yes, their argument was that the rent was too high, but this was the basis of their attempts to secure a half share in ACL last December. Negotiations concerning the rent (and offers of a reduction) came after that original deal had been scuppered by the council, by which time the gloves were off.
You say, "would SISU getting their hands on the freehold really be in the interests of the football club in any case?" Well, no, but then sale of the freehold was never on the table; SISUs offer was for half of ACL, plus an extended lease, in return for paying off the mortage. The council would have retained the freehold and half of ACL, and the ACL debt burden would have gone.
You then talk about "picking up the mortgage on the cheap". How does that work? What was owed to the bank was what was owed to the bank - it was not a figure that could be negotiated up and down. SISU offered to pay it all off. Supposition? To an extent yes, but no attempt by ACL or the council has ever been made to question or deny the deal was not as SISU have described it; and they have been very quick to set the record straight on other issues when SISU have been caught twisting the truth.
But again, we go round in circles...
But with the greatest of respect, there is so much conjecture in most of what you have written and so much belief in the hedge fund doing what they say they would do when clearly they have proven all along to be completely untrustworthy. I certainly agree with your last line though !! Please may it come soon !
shmmeee
Well-Known Member
If I say "Give me a million quid or ill kill your Mum" and you don't, is it your fault your Mum died?
duffer
Well-Known Member
See what you're saying in terms of timings, but it doesn't match what Fisher has said publicly. He didn't say the rent's too high because the council won't let us buy ACL - he just said the rent's too high. And as has been done to death, SISU could have bought the Higgs 50% share, had they wished, at pretty much any time they wished.
So in essence then, it seems what you're saying is that after that original deal went wrong SISU were entitled to negotiate in bad faith, and lie about doing so? Or have I misread that?
And the whole point of the deal (and the JR) was that SISU were going to pick up the mortgage under-value. The thrust of SISU's argument on the JR was that the council by paying the mortgage off in total (£14m) had overpaid because in that meeting in December it was thought that they could distress ACL and thereby try to get Yorkshire Bank to sell it for far less than that sum.
This from the CET:
http://www.coventrytelegraph.net/news/coventry-news/judge-throws-out-sky-blues-5667471
"The judicial review papers also accused council chief executive Martin Reeves (an ACL director) of being complicit - in earlier talks with Sisu over Ricoh rent, ownership and revenue - in seeking to present ACL as distressed in a bid to buy the mortgage debt for much less than £14m."
"The council had denied any wrongdoing. "
In fairness, it should be pointed out that it's an accusation, though it's not clear if the council's denial covers that specific accusation.
If SISU wanted to buy the mortgage off Yorkshire bank at full value, then that would be down to them and YB to negotiate - they wouldn't need the Council's permission to do that. Clearly they couldn't afford to or didn't want to do that.
I take your point about going around in circles - but in truth I'm just responding to your post and pointing out why I feel the way I do about things.
I'm not here to wind you up, or call you a SISU puppet, but I think you may have misunderstood some of the facts and personally I don't think SISU's approach to this has been acceptable from the point they started 'negotiating' about the rent.
shmmeee
Well-Known Member
Not sure you understand distressed debt. Negotiate the debt down is exactly what Sisu would've done, that's their entire business FFS.
And now it's OK to withhold play meant because "hey we plan on buying it, honest". Great stuff, let me know when you next move house. I'll move my stuff over as soon as its for sale, don't worry I won't pay rent because "I plan to buy it".
I'm not sure on the rent timing, I disagree with your version but have no facts to hand.
Like so many you perform moral and mental gymnastics to make the party line given by the club fit. Occams Razor my man, the simplest and most logical answer is that Sisu are the lying duplicitous scumbags they appear to be and no matter how much you and the Daily Mail would like to believe the people at a local council are generally incompetent rather than malicious.
RoboCCFC90
Well-Known Member
That's different.
Because you are threatening to do that.
A majority of the fans called for ACL to reject the CVA, I am hardly calling for you to kill my Mother..
James Smith
Well-Known Member
Yeah except if what ACL said is true and SISU want the freehold of the Ricoh and are making a seriously lowball offer for it. If it was Joy at that meeting and she actually did say we won't be back at the Ricoh without the freehold at my price then it isn't Tim that needs replacing......
What has brought the club to this situation now is irrelevant, what we all decide to do as fans now is paramount to any future the club has...The rights,wrongs or who has the biggest cock in the playground no longer matters, we either follow Sisu to NTFC or stay away hoping for pressure to make sisu come back or sell. I for one would never step foot into sixfields but i would not ridicule anyone who does, my own stance make me disagree with giving the current owners the ability to carry on..
TF knows 2000 turning up is going to hurt even more than they thought, he also knows the longer it goes without filing accounts, securing permission to build or prove funds to supporters, keeping the story will be harder to spin..He has no doubt done the job Sisu are paying for but time will provide many answers to questions that the fans, FL and clubs around the country are waiting for. All i know is none of us have been cared for in any of this, but now we are so important in how this plays out. Every single fan has power to decide how long this goes on for in so many ways and its important that what is decided by individuals should not lead to ridicule, all will either find if going or staying away is correct in there own hearts..
I hope we have the club back in Coventry i hope its the ricoh with a successful team, but time will tell and this time is what all parties are hoping for the other no longer has.I dont care who wins or who is proved right,i just want my club back.. And to be proud like i was yesterday listening to peter hormanschuck after the charity game, talking from the heart about his city and his club....
TF knows 2000 turning up is going to hurt even more than they thought, he also knows the longer it goes without filing accounts, securing permission to build or prove funds to supporters, keeping the story will be harder to spin..He has no doubt done the job Sisu are paying for but time will provide many answers to questions that the fans, FL and clubs around the country are waiting for. All i know is none of us have been cared for in any of this, but now we are so important in how this plays out. Every single fan has power to decide how long this goes on for in so many ways and its important that what is decided by individuals should not lead to ridicule, all will either find if going or staying away is correct in there own hearts..
I hope we have the club back in Coventry i hope its the ricoh with a successful team, but time will tell and this time is what all parties are hoping for the other no longer has.I dont care who wins or who is proved right,i just want my club back.. And to be proud like i was yesterday listening to peter hormanschuck after the charity game, talking from the heart about his city and his club....
TheParsonsHose
Member
Some real interesting points in this interview.....
1. Would you entertain a short term deal with ACL giving the fans what they want and you kind get what you want - If they can give us our ten points back then we may sit down and have a chat.
2. So are you going to entertain a discussion with ACL and give the fans what they want - No not at all Shane
3. Are the accounts in - Yeah the auditors are in this week, a matrix bullet moment indeed.
4. Who's fault is it - The blame game is boring I think if you are mature about it you look at the situation today and you look to move on!
The only objective seems to be mind games with ACL whilst having no regard for our fanbase. Point 1 came before point 4 which is ironic when we are talking about maturity.
Not one penny more, total disgrace. I have no problem with people who want to go to Northampton but will not understand why anybody would want to shake the hand of the man who took our club away from Coventry.
1. Would you entertain a short term deal with ACL giving the fans what they want and you kind get what you want - If they can give us our ten points back then we may sit down and have a chat.
2. So are you going to entertain a discussion with ACL and give the fans what they want - No not at all Shane
3. Are the accounts in - Yeah the auditors are in this week, a matrix bullet moment indeed.
4. Who's fault is it - The blame game is boring I think if you are mature about it you look at the situation today and you look to move on!
The only objective seems to be mind games with ACL whilst having no regard for our fanbase. Point 1 came before point 4 which is ironic when we are talking about maturity.
Not one penny more, total disgrace. I have no problem with people who want to go to Northampton but will not understand why anybody would want to shake the hand of the man who took our club away from Coventry.
Nonleagueherewecome
Well-Known Member
The Prefect
Active Member
theferret - you really need to go and get some grasp of facts and get some understanding of what 'distressed debt' is.
JS was negotiating with ACL's bankers for the mortgage to be 're-assigned' because ACL were in danger of defaulting on the payments. THIS IS NOT PAYING IT OFF IN FULL. I seem to remember a figure of about £8m to be paid by SISU for the mortgage. If that was the case what happens is that ACL's bank reassign the £14m mortgage to SISU - who then pay ACL's bank £8m for it. ACL's bank then realises a £6m loss. This is the 'distressed debt' - it was held by ACLs bank for the Ricoh mortgage - SISU wanted to buy it for less than it was worth. The 'distressed' part is the owner of the debt who is so nervous that it might not be paid that they become willing to sell for less than it is worth.
In return for their £8m SISU get ACL's mortgage of £14m - an instant profit of 75% (or £6m) if they're able to collect. It sits on SISU's balance sheet as a £14m asset - for which they would have paid less than 60p in the pound. In the meantime if the terms of the mortgage remain unchanged SISU would receive the interest and payments based on the original £14m - which means their return on investment is 75% higher than if they paid full price.
To be honest there was some talk of SISU writing off some (or could be all) of the mortgage in return for a longer lease. And there's the 'HEDGE' - the longer least costs you £8m and not the £14m it could have done. Obviously CCC and ACL didn't want their mortgage in the hands of the very people that defaulted on their rental obligations so decided to do their own thing. With the rent in default, SISU having gone back on a deal to buy the Higgs shares and a £400k rental offer it became difficult for CCC and ACL to deal with SISU in good faith.
Things are never as simple as they appear to be. SISU never offered to pay ACL's mortgage off - they offered to acquire it from ACLs bank.... And then make money on it..!
shmmeee
Well-Known Member
Sisu were threatening the club, first with liquidation, then that they wouldn't even entertain the idea of staying in Cov unless ACL signed. Purely so that they could spin it as "ACL cost us points, wah wah wah". No they didn't. Pay your bills and noone can put you in admin.
Otium was set up 2-3 years ago, prior to the rent "negotiations" beginning. It's been dormant until this point.
Are you telling me Sisu ever had any plan other than to put the club into admin/liquidation?
Nonleagueherewecome
Well-Known Member
Indeed as soon as it's existence was known people were saying that it would be used for the very purpose that it was used for.