I would have more sympathy for our owners if the debt on the club wasn't rising at such an alarming rate ! If they can explain to me why the rent was such a huge problem when they were able to load £2.5million management fees per year and further drain the club of £1 million debt interest per year then again I might relent but thus far.............'It's everyone else's fault we are in the shit' !! If they did get hold of the Ricoh complex I heavily suspect that they would try and borrow extensively against the asset and then implode, hence busting the club and vanishing back to Mayfair with their investment intact whilst the lenders try and pick up the pieces !
Have SISU been misunderstood? (9 Viewers)
- Thread starter magic82ball
- Start date
I would have more sympathy for our owners if the debt on the club wasn't rising at such an alarming rate ! If they can explain to me why the rent was such a huge problem when they were able to load £2.5million management fees per year and further drain the club of £1 million debt interest per year then again I might relent but thus far.............'It's everyone else's fault we are in the shit' !! If they did get hold of the Ricoh complex I heavily suspect that they would try and borrow extensively against the asset and then implode, hence busting the club and vanishing back to Mayfair with their investment intact whilst the lenders try and pick up the pieces !
edgy
Well-Known Member
You do realise we aren't owned by a Saudi billionaire, right? The investment is going into the right areas to allow the club a brighter future. To enable itself to be self sufficient. Gone are the times where you splash out money you haven't got on players on the hope of a promotion.
chiefdave
Well-Known Member
As an example (all made up figures but gives an idea). Let's say in real terms they have put in £30m. Now say they get the Ricoh for £5m. Lets say they can obtain a mortgage on the Ricoh of £35m. The club takes out the mortgage, proceeds go to SISU, AVRO etc as they are 'owed' money. SISU stop covering any losses by CCFC and the club, unable to pay the mortgage goes into administration, most likley with the bank taking ownership of the stadium. SISU walk away with a profit. CCFC are in admin and if a new buyer can be found they either have to service a huge debt with the bank or pay rent to a third party owner.
Pete in Portugal
Well-Known Member
Your absolutely right, we shouldn't be surprised at the unethical, (just my opinion of course), tactics of a Private Hedge Fund. Neither should we be surprised if they are only interested in achieving their long term financial and real estate asset goals, even if it results in our playing home games in Northampton, or puts the future of our club at high risk. Or even if it means making a completely disproportionate massive (again just my opinion) counter-claim from a local charity, who had the temerity to take them to court because they did not pay expenses that they'd previously agreed to meet. We have the choice to support Sisu or protest at these actions. Most supporters have chosen protest. And you should not be surprised at that either!
I also think you make the mistake of assuming that their "desired result", as you put it, is the same as the "desired result" for our football club. I may be wrong, but my view is that there is only a small overlap between the interests and objectives of Sisu and those of our football club. I believe it's pretty obvious from events since they took over that he values, aims and objectives are very different. I think that Joy Seppala herself has been quoted as saying that she's not interested in football and is only concerned with obtaining a financial return for Sisu investors, (or words to that effect).
I therefore do not share your conclusion that we should support Sisu in order to achieve long-term stability for the club, because sadly, that's not the direction in which they appear to be headed.
Last edited:
chiefdave
Well-Known Member
I have always said I am open to having my opinion changed. When this situation first started I was totally behind SISU when they placed all the blame on the council but as more evidence has come out I have changed that opinion. If SISU can provide evidence that stands up to scrutiny that they have a plan, any plan not just getting the Ricoh, that is of benefit to CCFC I would be happy to support it.
I'm not a Coventry taxpayer so with apologies to anyone who is, I couldn't really care less if the council lost money, wouldn't be comfortable with a charity losing out but to be totally honest if the choice was Higgs losing a few quid or a better future for the club I would pick the club every time - with the hope that somewhere down the line we could find a way to pay back Higgs.
If they have a masterplan they should tell us what it is!
I'm not a Coventry taxpayer so with apologies to anyone who is, I couldn't really care less if the council lost money, wouldn't be comfortable with a charity losing out but to be totally honest if the choice was Higgs losing a few quid or a better future for the club I would pick the club every time - with the hope that somewhere down the line we could find a way to pay back Higgs.
If they have a masterplan they should tell us what it is!
The Gentleman
Well-Known Member
What, so Sisu's investors and their portfolio is worth fuck all? If they are willing to throw millions down the drain in Northampton and yet more money on lawsuits, lawyers, management fees, and other things, then no, I would say that the money is not going in the right areas for the club
Lets not have the wool pulled over our eyes, SISU have finally got very lucky in Steven Pressley and old Waggott, two guys who are doing a fabulous job and doing the right things on the pitch at our level. The actual investment in the playing squad has come down significantly compared to the stupid days as it had to !
magic82ball
New Member
Come on, your big enough to know that the new ground is all smoke and mirrors. Would you believe it any more if they said they would build a 30,000 seater stadium? Why would they get rid of the club and leave the Ricoh empty, not working out to well for ACL is it? The potential of 15,000 people every other week spending in their casino or buying a pie, why would they actively choose to cut off that revenue stream?
edgy
Well-Known Member
But the money they are spending on the club, is going in the right areas.
1) keeping us afloat
2) money on the youth academy.
A quote from Pressley. He's bang on:
There had to be a change at this club, yes we need to achieve short-term goals but the biggest challenge for me isn't the supporters. It's not ground-sharing. It's not leaving our own stadium behind for the moment. It's keeping hold of these players. I'm lucky. They are hungry. I trust them.
"It might not look it but the future of this club is bright. We want to develop young players and keep them. The truth for Coventry City, if we invest as we have in our academy, we must utilise it. Otherwise what's the point?
"I know it sounds idealistic but look at Borussia Dortmund. They were in the wilderness for seven years. They invested in youth and they are now reaping the rewards of that."
Pressley also insists the players that the club develop would not be sold cheaply, adding: "We will not be easy pickings. We will only sell our prime assets at a price.
"The fans want a successful team. They don't want to see a club developing players and then selling them."
magic82ball
New Member
The nature of their business is to buy something at below value and sell on for a profit. What good is an arena earning them paltry amounts when they could sell and realise that profit?
tisza
Well-Known Member
There seems to be an assumption that there would be about a 40 million difference between what SISU could pay for the Ricoh and what they could sell it on for to recoup their money. The amount they claim to have put into the club. You'd have to think the council would be open to all sorts of legal issues if this were to happen.
magic82ball
New Member
But your taking what they have said at face value, which should never be done. If the rent was the real problem we would be playing at the Ricoh rent free wouldn't we? It was all leverage to distress.
Hobo
Well-Known Member
SISU have run us very poorly, communication has been poor, their tenure littered with mistakes (they have admitted this), not filed accounts, constantly going into admin and embargoes etc.,
They have now moved the club 35 miles away, are trying to build a stadium which seems a pathway to debt for the club but possibly a revenue source for themselves. They want returns on their investment which means the football club is the pauper in the relationship.
The day to day running, youth policy seems more sensible now, but their hand has been forced on this.
When they bought us I wasn't keen on who they were what they did, or their reputation. Didn't like their approach to small shareholders in the takeover. But once in you have to give them a chance. It was obvious they weren't super rich in footballing terms and were probably looking for quick return to the Prem and moving on.
The one thing I thought they would bring being a financial institution with limited funds, was some realistic financial budgeting and control.....that hope went before they even took us away from the Ricoh.
To my fellow Sky Blues Fans, we will soon be known as Nomads....exiled from our own club. Please stick together as we are the soul of this club, we are it's identity. The media are noticing the pitiful attendances at Sixfields compared to our fantastic away support and a tradition of good support. Talk sport have been chatting about it today. We can all be proud of our tradition.
They have now moved the club 35 miles away, are trying to build a stadium which seems a pathway to debt for the club but possibly a revenue source for themselves. They want returns on their investment which means the football club is the pauper in the relationship.
The day to day running, youth policy seems more sensible now, but their hand has been forced on this.
When they bought us I wasn't keen on who they were what they did, or their reputation. Didn't like their approach to small shareholders in the takeover. But once in you have to give them a chance. It was obvious they weren't super rich in footballing terms and were probably looking for quick return to the Prem and moving on.
The one thing I thought they would bring being a financial institution with limited funds, was some realistic financial budgeting and control.....that hope went before they even took us away from the Ricoh.
To my fellow Sky Blues Fans, we will soon be known as Nomads....exiled from our own club. Please stick together as we are the soul of this club, we are it's identity. The media are noticing the pitiful attendances at Sixfields compared to our fantastic away support and a tradition of good support. Talk sport have been chatting about it today. We can all be proud of our tradition.
magic82ball
New Member
That would be stupid.
Firstly they would achieve a far greater yield on the investment if they were to sell as a package. The Ricoh may get a £35M mortgage but that would not be at 100% Loan to Value. No lender would lend at 100%LTV. Meaning there would be more money in it for SISU to sell as a going concern complete with its highest income stream (the supporters of CCFC). On the open market this would likely achieve more than £35m if in your example, the Ricoh alone is worth £35m.
Secondly, for a lender to repossess a secured asset and sell on, they will sell at auction with the sale price invariably being much lower than what they would have got for it. This is because a lender is only concerned about recouping their debt plus expenses and any remaining monies going to the vendor, in this instance, SISU. So why would they enable a situation where they could potentially receive less money?
hackneyfox
Well-Known Member
'and a tradition of good support. Talk sport have been chatting about it today. We can all be proud of our tradition.'
cough splutter
cough splutter
chiefdave
Well-Known Member
So lets's say the Ricoh is work £50m and CCFC take a £35m mortgage. If the ground was sold that mortgage would have to be repaid would it not? So the net amount would be £15m, not enough to cover SISU's investment. However if they'd used the £35 to repay the 'debt' they would walk away without taking a loss and it would be the club left to clear up the mess. They wouldn't even need to sell the club they could just stop covering losses, admin follows and they make no bid to buy back out of admin.
Not saying it's likley or is their plan but as far as I can see that is a route that would get SISU their money back, which they have stated is their primary aim. Would love the club in a hell of a mess.
Magic, I know with your opening post you were possibly playing 'devil's advocate.' But there's an old saying 'give 'em an inch and they'll take a mile.'
Find it utterly incredible you could even consider these thoughts.
It's like appealing to their better nature. Sisu haven't got a better nature. They are business thugs.
And I don't want to wait ten years as you hint at.
The Pressley tenure is fairly decent, he's working minor miracles on a paper thin squad. Getting more out of the team. Long may it continue. But he's doing it in spite of them. Read what he says in the Daily Telegraph interview today. He doesn't like the Sixfields set up one bit. And he'll cite it when he leaves.
Under no circumstances whatsoever should any self respecting City fan, even for one split second, condone the move to Northampton. It is shocking beyond belief.
Find it utterly incredible you could even consider these thoughts.
It's like appealing to their better nature. Sisu haven't got a better nature. They are business thugs.
And I don't want to wait ten years as you hint at.
The Pressley tenure is fairly decent, he's working minor miracles on a paper thin squad. Getting more out of the team. Long may it continue. But he's doing it in spite of them. Read what he says in the Daily Telegraph interview today. He doesn't like the Sixfields set up one bit. And he'll cite it when he leaves.
Under no circumstances whatsoever should any self respecting City fan, even for one split second, condone the move to Northampton. It is shocking beyond belief.
thaiskyblue
New Member
hear hear, top shout SP.
sky blue john
Well-Known Member
as long as ccfc are once again in a stronger position than post 2001 sisu will be legends
I haven't seen anything other than worst owners ever legendary status !!
magic82ball
New Member
But why let a lender repossess and sell at auction when they would receive a much lower amount than they would have on the open market?
And why get rid of the club if you could sell the Ricoh for much more if it is accompanied by a Football League Club?
SISU are in the money business and as much as you think your scenario may play out, it would be detrimental to SISU for that reason alone it wont happen.
EDIT: If they bought for £5m and then sold for £50m the same monies would be received by SISU, no need to muddy waters with a mortgage
Last edited:
magic82ball
New Member
Where, anywhere in my opening or subsequent posts have I "condoned" the way they have acted? I am simply asking a valid question. Do you feel in 10 years time if their objectives have been achieved that we as a club will be in a better position because of their actions?
My personal opinion is I would rather see us in admin, without SISU, paying a sensible rent, and I would take it this second if offered as I think there is no moral justification for what they have done.
chiefdave
Well-Known Member
Of course if they could buy it at such a knockdown price that the profit on selling it at market value covered their investment then that is a sensible approach but if it doesn't then they need to look at other options. The mortgage would come into play as if they sold they would need to repay the mortgage from the proceeds of the sale. If they took a mortgage in the clubs name to repay themselves and then walked away they wouldn't need to repay a penny, it would all be on the club.
mds
Well-Known Member
Funny how people perceive the ROI Sisu expect will come from Ricoh ownership then mortgage, debt laden and run the club into the ground after getting their little return, I would like to think in the long term they want top flight football at the Ricoh, £1m a game income, plus shirt sponsor say 60m minimum plus a minimum £40m from a lowly league position, that would be a return on their investment, whether they can acheive that is a different matter, I would also like to think that is the money they are after not a little property sale! A club playing in the top league will give them much higher return than the value of the Ricoh.
Same with the debt, Sisu say we are owed this much, people scream where how when why? When people slag them, its like weve never been in so much debt and find it easy to accept and use their own figures against them! Weve been in silly debt for over a decade already.
Not defending Sisu nor a fan of theirs, I was indifferent until they moved us out of the City, I just think there is a bigger picture that a lot of people miss.
We ahve a manager, back room staff and a team that are getting noticed for all the right reason, why cant this be carried forward positively with posiitive outcomes for everyone, the potential is there. They appear to be getting the right people in the right places, get us back to the Ricoh and watch us fly.
Long term goals, i would love to think whoever the owners are in 10 yrs we will have made huge jumps and strides from where we are now, top flight, who knows (we can dream) but it would be hard for us to be in a much worse position than right now!
Same with the debt, Sisu say we are owed this much, people scream where how when why? When people slag them, its like weve never been in so much debt and find it easy to accept and use their own figures against them! Weve been in silly debt for over a decade already.
Not defending Sisu nor a fan of theirs, I was indifferent until they moved us out of the City, I just think there is a bigger picture that a lot of people miss.
We ahve a manager, back room staff and a team that are getting noticed for all the right reason, why cant this be carried forward positively with posiitive outcomes for everyone, the potential is there. They appear to be getting the right people in the right places, get us back to the Ricoh and watch us fly.
Long term goals, i would love to think whoever the owners are in 10 yrs we will have made huge jumps and strides from where we are now, top flight, who knows (we can dream) but it would be hard for us to be in a much worse position than right now!
Last edited:
hill83
Well-Known Member
What have you done magic82ball? You are now officially a Sisu rent boy scab hanging out the back of torchy and Grendel.
Seriously though, if, and it's a huge leap of faith to get to that 'if'.
We are in a better shape after 10 years I suppose you couldn't really argue your point. Obviously nobody condones the way they are going about things though.
Seriously though, if, and it's a huge leap of faith to get to that 'if'.
We are in a better shape after 10 years I suppose you couldn't really argue your point. Obviously nobody condones the way they are going about things though.
Sky Blue Kid
Well-Known Member
magic82ball......Do you feel in 10 years time if their objectives have been achieved that we as a club will be in a better position because of their actions.........................................................................................................................................Nobody is accusing you of condoning SISU's actions. I've said your OP was a loaded question that has been challenged by a lot of posters...My overall answer to your OP was, and still is, Their plan will definately NOT put CCFC in a better position in 10 years time. I've put forward 2 of a myriad reasons why, others have hundreds as well. Posters have made very valid posts against the "SISU Way".
bigfatronssba
Well-Known Member
There is nothing on earth that excuses moving a football club 35 miles away from a perfectly good stadium in its home city.
That isn't up for debate as far as im concerned.
What they have done will at best severely damage this club for years to come by killing the future fanbase, or at worst will see the club liquidated.
You think that is a misunderstanding?
Maybe a year ago I could have agreed with you, but for moving the club, sisu aren't even good enough to be scum.
I hope they rot in hell.
That isn't up for debate as far as im concerned.
What they have done will at best severely damage this club for years to come by killing the future fanbase, or at worst will see the club liquidated.
You think that is a misunderstanding?
Maybe a year ago I could have agreed with you, but for moving the club, sisu aren't even good enough to be scum.
I hope they rot in hell.
Sky Blue Kid
Well-Known Member
hill83....What have you done magic82ball? You are now officially a Sisu rent boy scab hanging out the back of torchy and Grendel.........................................................................................................................................................Hang on a second....Right!...I've been through all the posts, and NOT one has called you a SISU rent boy scab hanging out the back of torchy and Grendel........That was....untill YOU hill83 said it!!!
magic82ball
New Member
Err... yes. I think you have misunderstood the question.
It was not "are they right to have done it?" it was in 10 years time, if we have ownership of Ricoh and are sold on and have financial security. Would this few years of pain be worth it?
Nothing to agree with me on, just asking a question.
bigfatronssba
Well-Known Member
No I dont think it would have been worth it.
A gamble with the very life of the club is never acceptable.
John_Silletts_Nose
Well-Known Member
This is a scary thought, Take That still playing in 10 years time.
The Gentleman
Well-Known Member
But should it take 16 years to turn round an ailing club? What will have happened to the fanbase in that time if we continue down this path we are currently on? If Sisu/Otium do get ownership of the Ricoh then it stands to reason that what ever company name they choose to put it in then we will still be paying rent (as Fisher has admitted we will at any new stadium) so will we be in a better position or just the same after 16 more years of pain?
Grendel
Well-Known Member
Leave magic ball alone me and him are best friends.
magic82ball
New Member
We can only hope.