Seasons End (9 Viewers)

[Mary_Mungo_Midge]

If they win we will remain at Sixfields while they embark on a litigation action for damages against the council, again I see this ultimately ending unsuccessfully though I want it to succeed.

Strangely enough, I don't disagree with much of what you write. However, I can't get my head around this bit. We all know that SISU have incurred no real costs as a function of the loan that gave rise to the JR, other than the revenues they walked away of their own volition. So, I can't see why you are so vitriolic as to 'want' them to be successful in running up a large legal bill for the council; plus damages too. I mean, what the hell have CCC done to you to be deserved of this level of hatred?

 

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[mark_ccfc]

Largely agree with this, although I have added a few amendments

So, in around 8 weeks time the season is over. Time to evaluate what is going to happen to the club next season. Will there be any future and if so where will the club be playing?

Despite all the chest thumping, finger wagging and moral high ground some things are a safe bet;

- sisu do not care about the losses they are incurring. Many of the rabid, extreme end of this forum claim only 700 pay anyway. If that's the case losses are catastrophic . What is certain is they will not return unless on their terms.

They do care about losing money. If they were breaking even now (which I think they expected) I think they would go to appeal if they lost the JR. As it is now, depending on how much they are losing, they may just cut their losses and liquidate.

- a fans forum on the clubs finances will have no impact. May give some financial experts a forum to interpret accounts but we all know the accounts defy any financial logic.

I don't think that is strictly true. It would put further pressure on SISU by drawing attention to the situation here. There is no such thing as bad publicity (except when you are SISU!).


- despite the endless threads on ACL and the Ricoh no one can judge long term success until at least 5 years without a tenant. They seem now to have very few concerts, history tells us any stadium outside of London will struggle to survive and indeed what is the point of a stadium without a tenant.
The absurdity will grow with every vacant season.

Yes it is absurd, brought on by SISU trying to mug the City of Coventry.

Anyway, where will we be next season?

My personal belief is that sisu have made a financial evaluation and decreed that potential benefits of a successful judicial review are worth maintaining the club and supporting losses. The new ground is obviously a smokescreen.

Spot on.

My belief is if the review goes badly they will liquidate having the defence that the review and its costs have crippled them.

If they win we will remain at Sixfields while they embark on a litigation action for damages against the council, again I see this ultimately ending unsuccessfully though I want it to succeed.

If they were to win this, it would be victory of unscrupulous business people and would set a dangerous precedent for other businesses of the same nature as SISU to use football teams as pawns in cynical business games, not to mention the waste of council tax payers money. Shame on you!

So I conclude the club is living on borrowed time. A successful JR in their favour could get a return as it could fold ACL due to heavy litigation but even this is a long shot.

As above

Sisu aren't that successful in court so I see defeat and I see liquidation. No one wins. An empty stadium with a management company purely existing on non stadium events and the club dead and buried.

At least we could draw a line under everything and possibly create a new club. Not ideal, but it could be the only way out of this mess.

The seasons end will almost certainly mean the game is over.

 

[spider_ricoh]

Strangely enough, I don't disagree with much of what you write. However, I can't get my head around this bit. We all know that SISU have incurred no real costs as a function of the loan that gave rise to the JR, other than the revenues they walked away of their own volition. So, I can't see why you are so vitriolic as to 'want' them to be successful in running up a large legal bill for the council; pus damages too. I mean, what the hell have CCC done to you to be deserved of this level of hatred?

Agree with this - some on here, including Grendel, expect the council to waive the rent and/or give a free gift of a stadium to the club for no return whatsoever.

Personally as a council tax payer I'd be angry if they didn't get every penny they're owed by the club.

 

[mark_ccfc]

Largely agree with this, although I have added a few amendments

So, in around 8 weeks time the season is over. Time to evaluate what is going to happen to the club next season. Will there be any future and if so where will the club be playing?

Despite all the chest thumping, finger wagging and moral high ground some things are a safe bet;

- sisu do not care about the losses they are incurring. Many of the rabid, extreme end of this forum claim only 700 pay anyway. If that's the case losses are catastrophic . What is certain is they will not return unless on their terms.

They do care about losing money. If they were breaking even now (which I think they expected) I think they would go to appeal if they lost the JR. As it is now, depending on how much they are losing, they may just cut their losses and liquidate.

- a fans forum on the clubs finances will have no impact. May give some financial experts a forum to interpret accounts but we all know the accounts defy any financial logic.

I don't think that is strictly true. It would put further pressure on SISU by drawing attention to the situation here. There is no such thing as bad publicity (except when you are SISU!).


- despite the endless threads on ACL and the Ricoh no one can judge long term success until at least 5 years without a tenant. They seem now to have very few concerts, history tells us any stadium outside of London will struggle to survive and indeed what is the point of a stadium without a tenant.
The absurdity will grow with every vacant season.

Yes it is absurd, brought on by SISU trying to mug the City of Coventry.

Anyway, where will we be next season?

My personal belief is that sisu have made a financial evaluation and decreed that potential benefits of a successful judicial review are worth maintaining the club and supporting losses. The new ground is obviously a smokescreen.

Spot on.

My belief is if the review goes badly they will liquidate having the defence that the review and its costs have crippled them.

If they win we will remain at Sixfields while they embark on a litigation action for damages against the council, again I see this ultimately ending unsuccessfully though I want it to succeed.

If they were to win this, it would be victory of unscrupulous business people and would set a dangerous precedent for other businesses of the same nature as SISU to use football teams as pawns in cynical business games, not to mention the waste of council tax payers money. Shame on you!

So I conclude the club is living on borrowed time. A successful JR in their favour could get a return as it could fold ACL due to heavy litigation but even this is a long shot.

As above

Sisu aren't that successful in court so I see defeat and I see liquidation. No one wins. An empty stadium with a management company purely existing on non stadium events and the club dead and buried.

At least we could draw a line under everything and possibly create a new club. Not ideal, but it could be the only way out of this mess.

The seasons end will almost certainly mean the game is over.

 

[shmmeee]

Strangely enough, I don't disagree with much of what you write. However, I can't get my head around this bit. We all know that SISU have incurred no real costs as a function of the loan that gave rise to the JR, other than the revenues they walked away of their own volition. So, I can't see why you are so vitriolic as to 'want' them to be successful in running up a large legal bill for the council; pus damages too. I mean, what the hell have CCC done to you to be deserved of this level of hatred?

Bins or potholes. Local politics is always bins and potholes.

On topic: 100% agree with your reasoning G, you won't be surprised to see I disagree on the best outcome.

What do you expect to happen if Sisu win the JR? In terms of the financial health of the club?

The debt Sisu have run up in the last 7 years is a millstone around our necks, even after any sale. We're on life support and personally I'd rather take the bullet now and rebuild while the will is there than wait another decade and slip quietly into the night.

 

[RegTheDonk]

Say SISU lose the JR ... bearing in mind how much money they have supposedly pumped in, would they not sell up for as much as they can load the losses onto someone else? Would liquidation not mean they throw away any chance of clawing some money back?

Genuine question as I do not understand how liquidation benefits them.

 

[Como]

I am not sure if it matters long term whether they are able to win any legal action as far as the Club is concerned, it is not as if they would put any such damages into the club.

The only benefit of keeping the Club going is presumably to be the vehicle for any legal action.

 

[shmmeee]

Say SISU lose the JR ... bearing in mind how much money they have supposedly pumped in, would they not sell up for as much as they can load the losses onto someone else? Would liquidation not mean they throw away any chance of clawing some money back?

Genuine question as I do not understand how liquidation benefits them.

Question is, if people know they want out, who would buy? Why not wait for admin and pick them up on a CVA. Or, you know, threaten the FL with legal action unless they give you the GS and liquidate to avoid all debts.

 

[Sky Blue Harry H]

To those wiser than I - if SISU lose the JR, can they wind up all the incurred debt on company x (not pay ACL etc) and set sail debt free with company ARSIUM who will buy the football team 'cos no-one knows where the golden share is etc (or will this be a step too far for the FL). Hopefully this can't happen - help me??

 

[Gary.j]

The debt Sisu have run up in the last 7 years is a millstone around our necks, even after any sale. We're on life support and personally I'd rather take the bullet now and rebuild while the will is there than wait another decade and slip quietly into the night.

Same here, I've long since accepted that we have much further to fall than where we are now, and that a rebuild may be our only way forward. We'll need somewhere to play, which is why I'm not so keen on giving the stadium away for free.

 

[fernandopartridge]

Liquidation could seriously mean a sub conference team however. The protestations that this will be some kind of utopia reminds me of a builder that made in big and holidays in the Maldives. Then one summer he wants to go back to his roots and takes the children to his seaside haunt of Skegness. He doesn't return.

Spot on. The reaction to losing at Gillingham said it all

 

[spider_ricoh]

Say SISU lose the JR ... bearing in mind how much money they have supposedly pumped in, would they not sell up for as much as they can load the losses onto someone else? Would liquidation not mean they throw away any chance of clawing some money back?

Genuine question as I do not understand how liquidation benefits them.

Hhm with their intricate financial ways it might be possible for them to use liquidation to claim huge losses on the club, which they could use to write off tax liabilities elsewhere in their investment portfolio.

 

[letsallsingtogether]

Yes but unfortunately she never had a clue how to run a football club and as for the Goons she has employed well that's another level of misguidance and idiocy..

I was comparing seppella to the revolting Owen Oysten. My main point was hypocrisy. Face it if seppella bankrupted every other business she had, had served time for manslaughter if she was guiding the club back to the premiership shed get plenty of support on here.

 

[dongonzalos]

This sums up the problem with our club and specifically the board this season ....

Yes Emperor that is a fantastic plan it is destined to succeed!!!!

 

[Grendel]

Yes but unfortunately she never had a clue how to run a football club and as for the Goons she has employed well that's another level of misguidance and idiocy..

Nice to see a mature and reasonable argument on this thread.

 

[Tonylinc]

"mature and reasonable"..................Words which I never thought that I would read from a Grendel post!!!!!!

 

[dongonzalos]

So, in around 8 weeks time the season is over. Time to evaluate what is going to happen to the club next season. Will there be any future and if so where will the club be playing?

Despite all the chest thumping, finger wagging and moral high ground some things are a safe bet;

- sisu do not care about the losses they are incurring. Many of the rabid, extreme end of this forum claim only 700 pay anyway. If that's the case losses are catastrophic . What is certain is they will not return unless on their terms.

- a fans forum on the clubs finances will have no impact. May give some financial experts a forum to interpret accounts but we all know the accounts defy any financial logic.

- despite the endless threads on ACL and the Ricoh no one can judge long term success until at least 5 years without a tenant. They seem now to have very few concerts, history tells us any stadium outside of London will struggle to survive and indeed what is the point of a stadium without a tenant.
The absurdity will grow with every vacant season.

Anyway, where will we be next season?

My personal belief is that sisu have made a financial evaluation and decreed that potential benefits of a successful judicial review are worth maintaining the club and supporting losses. The new ground is obviously a smokescreen.

My belief is if the review goes badly they will liquidate having the defence that the review and its costs have crippled them.

If they win we will remain at Sixfields while they embark on a litigation action for damages against the council, again I see this ultimately ending unsuccessfully though I want it to succeed.

So I conclude the club is living on borrowed time. A successful JR in their favour could get a return as it could fold ACL due to heavy litigation but even this is a long shot.

Sisu aren't that successful in court so I see defeat and I see liquidation. No one wins. An empty stadium with a management company purely existing on non stadium events and the club dead and buried.

The seasons end will almost certainly mean the game is over.

If they attempt to liquidate what is the procedure?

 

[spider_ricoh]

If they attempt to liquidate what is the procedure?

Same as last time, they could buy as back again...cost them another ten points probably!

 

[Tonylinc]

Same as last time, they could buy as back again...cost them another ten points probably!

What a little ray of sunshine you are......committing us to yet another false dawn!

 

[Broken Hearted Sky Blue]

Nice to see a mature and reasonable argument on this thread.

I presume you don't agree with his post? Care to tell me where he is wrong?

 

[wingy]

I have a wild theory .

That Is that Fisher Is a far bigger player In the strategy than many of us think.
IMO The funding through ARVO is generated by him and he holds a stake ,thus high interest etc .
IMO Seppela has wrung her hands of us in terms of financing and gambled the stake she holds on recouping some of the losses ,win or lose that is the point at which she exits .

Fisher Is then holding the baby ,whatever Is left .

I would be looking for the creation of another company within the Group,repeat and rinse.

 

[spider_ricoh]

I have a wild theory .

That Is that Fisher Is a far bigger player In the strategy than many of us think.
IMO The funding through ARVO is generated by him and he holds a stake ,thus high interest etc .
IMO Seppela has wrung her hands of us in terms of financing and gambled the stake she holds on recouping some of the losses ,win or lose that is the point at which she exits .

Fisher Is then holding the baby ,whatever Is left .

I would be looking for the creation of another company within the Group,repeat and rinse.

Could be, Wingy. Hadn't thought of that.

Tim claimed to me that he has been involved also in Sheff Weds and Charlton (what a great line of success stories he boasts) - if so you would think he has found a way of making a profitable venture somewhere in the finances of loss-making football clubs.

 

[Broken Hearted Sky Blue]

I have a wild theory .

That Is that Fisher Is a far bigger player In the strategy than many of us think.
IMO The funding through ARVO is generated by him and he holds a stake ,thus high interest etc .
IMO Seppela has wrung her hands of us in terms of financing and gambled the stake she holds on recouping some of the losses ,win or lose that is the point at which she exits .

Fisher Is then holding the baby ,whatever Is left .

I would be looking for the creation of another company within the Group,repeat and rinse.

I have always had the feeling that ARVO and Mr Fisher are one and the same thing. Months ago it was suggested that Mr Fisher had invested 10 million and the exposure to ARVO is? This could of course be a coincidence.

 

[dongonzalos]

Same as last time, they could buy as back again...cost them another ten points probably!

So it will end up for sale and someone who can, by proper negotiation do a deal with ACL and get us back to where we belong.
Excellent bring on the JR!

Unfortunately it wont be that simple, the word appeal will feature heavily.

Also I think if a judge does come down on SISU's side I do not think they will award compo . They can refuse if the feel the complainant contributed in anyway to the situation they find themselves in.

 

[spider_ricoh]

So it will end up for sake and someone who can by proper negotiation do a deal with ACL will get us back to where we belong.
Excellent bring on the JR

Unfortunately it wont be that simple, the word appeal will feature heavily.
Also I think if a judge does come down on SISU's side I do not think they will award compo . They can refuse if the feel the complainant contributed in anyway to the situation they find themselves in.

SISU are banking heavily on winning the JR and being awarded substantial damages - otherwise the whole JR / move to Northampton makes no sense at all.

 

[Tonylinc]

SISU are banking heavily on winning the JR and being awarded substantial damages - otherwise the whole JR / move to Northampton makes no sense at all.

And just why would anyone award them damages? Just asking.

 

[spider_ricoh]

And just why would anyone award them damages? Just asking.

If the court decides that CCC did jeapordise / undermine CCFC (or SISU as CCFC owners), i.e. uphold the JR by finding in SISU's favour, then SISU as the winning party could claim damages, as is common in civil law. They would have to show how their business suffered by being "forced" to move to Northampton. So if SISU show it cost £5m in lost revenues this year, that mightget awarded damages. Rather than take a financial hit when they have council services to preserve in an age of austerity, the council could choose to give SISU the Ricoh in lieu of payment. SISU of course would gladly accept.

 

[Broken Hearted Sky Blue]

So it will end up for sale and someone who can, by proper negotiation do a deal with ACL and get us back to where we belong.
Excellent bring on the JR!

Unfortunately it wont be that simple, the word appeal will feature heavily.

Also I think if a judge does come down on SISU's side I do not think they will award compo . They can refuse if the feel the complainant contributed in anyway to the situation they find themselves in.

I think what people are forgeting is that an appeal can only be lodged on a point of law not just because you dont like the result. As for compensation that as I understand it is something they will have to go for in another case should they win the JR.

 

[stupot07]

And just why would anyone award them damages? Just asking.

I don't think they can pursue damages. The JR is solely about whether it was a legal use of public funding.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Grendel-the moment SISU shut this business down for good is when they crystallise a juicy, £45 million loss which needs to be explained to all who have put money into this ill judged venture. There have been so many times over the past few years where we have thought SISU would finally have had enough and pack things in-they haven't and instead have acted in increasingly bizarre ways to satisfy 'Joyless'. I honestly don't see a limit to her hubris and how far she is prepared to go to get her one-up on the council.

 

[dongonzalos]

SISU are banking heavily on winning the JR and being awarded substantial damages - otherwise the whole JR / move to Northampton makes no sense at all.

The discretionary nature of the remedies means that even if a court finds a public body has acted wrongly, it does not have to grant any remedy. Examples of where discretion will be exercised against an applicant may include where the applicant’s own conduct has been unmeritorious or unreasonable, for example where the applicant has unreasonably delayed in applying for judicial review, where the applicant has not acted in good faith, where a remedy would impede an authority’s ability to deliver fair administration, or where the judge considers that an alternative remedy could have been pursued.

 

[dongonzalos]

I don't think they can pursue damages. The JR is solely about whether it was a legal use of public funding.

I believe they can peruse damages

 

[stupot07]

If the court decides that CCC did jeapordise / undermine CCFC (or SISU as CCFC owners), i.e. uphold the JR by finding in SISU's favour, then SISU as the winning party could claim damages, as is common in civil law. They would have to show how their business suffered by being "forced" to move to Northampton. So if SISU show it cost £5m in lost revenues this year, that mightget awarded damages. Rather than take a financial hit when they have council services to preserve in an age of austerity, the council could choose to give SISU the Ricoh in lieu of payment. SISU of course would gladly accept.

The JR is solely about whether it was an appropriate use of public funding.

 

[stupot07]

I believe they can peruse damages

They would have to seek them separately after the JR.

 

[spider_ricoh]

They would have to seek them separately after the JR.

And they surely would. With appeals and secondary cases taken into account, all of a sudden you get to Timmy's 3 years to be back in Cov. At the Ricoh, with the huge drop in revenue caused by playing at Northampton used as a claim for compensation that would instead land them the Ricoh. Oh, fuck the fans by the way. Lovely people.