More united than we realise (14 Viewers)

[Ian1779]

Ok this is getting too weird so to wrap up -

Thx to posters who have engaged with the OP and responses on here, twitter and FB reinforce the view that while there are small but noisy extremes there is in fact far more fan unity than has been acknowledged. And that has got to be a good thing

Given your 3 points you've raised and we've discussed - your maillot would suggest that point 3 is the most pertinent to you... When it fact point 1 is for me far more important.

 

---

[jimmyhillsfanclub]

Blue is the colour of light between violet and green on the visible spectrum. Hues of blue include indigo and ultramarine, closer to violet; pure blue, without any mixture of other colours; Cyan, which is midway on the spectrum between blue and green, and the other blue-greens turquoise, teal, and aquamarine.

Blues also vary in shade or tint; darker shades of blue contain black or grey, while lighter tints contain white. Darker shades of blue include ultramarine, cobalt blue, navy blue, and Prussian blue; while lighter tints include sky blue, azure, and Egyptian blue.

Which shade do Man. City play in?

 

[Nick]

Which shade do Man. City play in?

So you are saying sisu are good owners?

 

[TheOldFive]

"we want ccfc back at the Ricoh"

Just sticking to the first point is all that's needed to unite anyone capable of unity. Supplementary points serve little purpose other than to cause bickering on forums and posit more opinion as fact than is actually needed without a necessary amount of heavy qualification.

 

[shmmeee]

"we want ccfc back at the Ricoh"

Just sticking to the first point is all that's needed to unite anyone capable of unity. Supplementary points serve little purpose other than to cause bickering on forums and posit more opinion as fact than is actually needed without a necessary amount of heavy qualification.

I don't think it unites anyone. It's like politicians promising happiness or freedom. Well yeah, the rub is in how we define that concept and the steps we take to achieve it.

It's annoying that none of the fans groups have been equal in their questioning, well the SBT were at first, but the club didn't play ball I think. Rather than seeing KCIC asking questions of Sisu and GCBTTR asking questions of just the council, why can't both do both? I don't think we need a council candidate, certainly not more than we need a visible, realistic alternative to Sisu putting forward.

I'd like to see very public, very open questions being asked of all, and very clear, achievable and measurable outcomes requested from all. With clear time limits and public release of answers or lack thereof.

I think most can agree on what that would look like. On the Council side questions about the build and rationale behind the Ricoh, maybe ultimately questions about making land in Coventry available for a new ground if that's what's needed. On the ACL side questions about the availability of revenue and how the initial rent was set. On the Sisu side questions about CCFC Ltd (never forget), the refusal to accept a short term deal in Cov.

In terms of outcomes, I think a temporary return to Coventry from Sisu while negotiations are happening and a partner promise to match the Sixfields terms from ACL would be a good starting point. From the council, I'm not sure I agree with the need for a valuation, but it seems most do so that's one thing.

Stick to a few clear points that most agree on. Make it questioning not confrontational. And stick to your guns when you get a poor answer. And most importantly of all be 100% completely transparent, and if any players won't work with you because of that, make this perfectly clear and ask them to explain their actions.

Sunlight is the best disinfectant. No secret meetings, no unreleased minutes, just a direct conduit of information to and from the fans at large through the media and social networks.

 

[Gint11]

Blue is the colour of light between violet and green on the visible spectrum. Hues of blue include indigo and ultramarine, closer to violet; pure blue, without any mixture of other colours; Cyan, which is midway on the spectrum between blue and green, and the other blue-greens turquoise, teal, and aquamarine.

Blues also vary in shade or tint; darker shades of blue contain black or grey, while lighter tints contain white. Darker shades of blue include ultramarine, cobalt blue, navy blue, and Prussian blue; while lighter tints include sky blue, azure, and Egyptian blue.

Well done Google search

 

[Rob S]

Ok this is getting too weird so to wrap up -

Thx to posters who have engaged with the OP and responses on here, twitter and FB reinforce the view that while there are small but noisy extremes there is in fact far more fan unity than has been acknowledged. And that has got to be a good thing

And so we see the object of this exercise...make out that most people agree with 'the KCIC way' and so other groups (I wonder who he means? He never says! ) are the 'small but noisy extremes'.

How about this Michael:

If you genuinely believe in fan unity stop slagging off other fans and misrepresenting their views and aims.

Instead of trying to undermine and alienate anther fans, get on with finding common ground so we can work together.

I, and other people involved with GCBttR have (until now!) purposely ignored all of the snide little attacks, lies and misrepresentations coming from you over the past few months and focussed on always giving credit for the work KCIC / NOPM have done over the past few years that has kept the issue in the spotlight and brought pressure on many of the sides in this dispute, from Sisu to the FA.

We've been happy to support Fix Football (although you seem to have got bored with that) and we would have been happy to try and get some answers out of Joy when you were pushing that line but you seem to have moved on from that too but we have common ground.

We've positioned ourselves as part of the circle of different fans groups that are surrounding the organisations that can actually affect change in this ridiculous saga and we are happy to acknowledge that we are only a part of a wider grouping of supporters and their views. You seem to take the more George W Bush position of 'you're either with us or against us' which isn't very helpful or unifying IMHO.

I keep getting people saying things like 'Why is Michael so upset with you?' and 'Why has he got it in for you?' and TBH I'm at a bit of a loss. Are you taking this as personally as some of your newsletters appear to be making out? Have we genuinely upset you by including the council on the list of organisations that should play a part in solving this mess?

Look, we can spend another endless round of chat arguing who did what and apportioning the correct amount of blame and all agreeing that this is a terrible situation and how bad everything is and so on & so forth.

Or...we can work on the actual solution so that we can see our club playing football in Coventry in the Ricoh.

Sisu don't need to build a new stadium and they can't seriously think that they can get the Ricoh all to themselves at a knock-down price. Conversely, the council can't expect a football club to have any kind of future when they are just paying rent.

The compromise has to be somewhere along the lines of CCFC taking over a decent leasehold on the arena based on proper valuations and some pretty major negotiations so that all other parties involved (Higgs, Compass, other linked businesses) have some satisfaction & recompense.

The freehold remains with the city so the asset is protected, the club have a chance at rebuilding from what looks like a decent start (young local talent, brilliant manager, community-minded development officer etc.) and Sisu can look at moving their investment on. A good side issue would be positioning fan ownership / representation into a future sale.

This would take compromise from all sides, working on trust issues and some pressure will need to be applied and co-ordinated as required.

Otherwise, as long as we are watching the courts more than we are watching the pitch, this will keep dragging on and on and on and on and on and on...you get the picture.

So maybe the word for the day needs to be compromise so that unity can follow..?

#pusb

 

[Nick]

I don't think it unites anyone. It's like politicians promising happiness or freedom. Well yeah, the rub is in how we define that concept and the steps we take to achieve it.

It's annoying that none of the fans groups have been equal in their questioning, well the SBT were at first, but the club didn't play ball I think. Rather than seeing KCIC asking questions of Sisu and GCBTTR asking questions of just the council, why can't both do both? I don't think we need a council candidate, certainly not more than we need a visible, realistic alternative to Sisu putting forward.

I'd like to see very public, very open questions being asked of all, and very clear, achievable and measurable outcomes requested from all. With clear time limits and public release of answers or lack thereof.

I think most can agree on what that would look like. On the Council side questions about the build and rationale behind the Ricoh, maybe ultimately questions about making land in Coventry available for a new ground if that's what's needed. On the ACL side questions about the availability of revenue and how the initial rent was set. On the Sisu side questions about CCFC Ltd (never forget), the refusal to accept a short term deal in Cov.

In terms of outcomes, I think a temporary return to Coventry from Sisu while negotiations are happening and a partner promise to match the Sixfields terms from ACL would be a good starting point. From the council, I'm not sure I agree with the need for a valuation, but it seems most do so that's one thing.

Stick to a few clear points that most agree on. Make it questioning not confrontational. And stick to your guns when you get a poor answer. And most importantly of all be 100% completely transparent, and if any players won't work with you because of that, make this perfectly clear and ask them to explain their actions.

Sunlight is the best disinfectant. No secret meetings, no unreleased minutes, just a direct conduit of information to and from the fans at large through the media and social networks.

I agree, why so many groups? Why not have Rob and Michael work together and one target the council and one CCFC if thats what they want to do.

Ps. Does that mean you don't agree that ACL have questions to answer?

 

[chiefdave]

The compromise has to be somewhere along the lines of CCFC taking over a decent leasehold on the arena based on proper valuations and some pretty major negotiations so that all other parties involved (Higgs, Compass, other linked businesses) have some satisfaction & recompense.

The freehold remains with the city so the asset is protected, the club have a chance at rebuilding from what looks like a decent start (young local talent, brilliant manager, community-minded development officer etc.) and Sisu can look at moving their investment on. A good side issue would be positioning fan ownership / representation into a future sale.

A lot of people would agree with this, myself included, however SISU have stated they are only interested in outright ownership which would make this a non starter. If they were interested in going down this route then it's a fairly straightforward process. Make an offer for Higgs 50%, they should already have a very good idea how much that will cost. Make an offer for CCCs 50%. As part of the offers they could say they will clear the loan in return for the lease being extended. It's not really that complex of a deal.

Once they have ownership of ACL then it's up to them to renegotiate any contracts or bring in anyone else such as AEG they want to subcontract to. Attempting to bundle those kind of negotiations in with any purchase of ACL is just adding an unnecessary layer of complexity and potential point of failure.

The problem we have is that it requires action from SISU, there is little that CCC or Higgs can do at the moment past saying they will consider any reasonable offers. A door which they have always left open in every statement from that side of the fence. If SISU were to come out and say there is no new ground, we want the lease on the Ricoh and we're tabling a bid for it then there would be a case for putting pressure on the council. At present I can't really see what you can expect the council to do to move things forward. They can't sell something no one has made an offer to buy!

 

[shmmeee]

I agree, why so many groups? Why not have Rob and Michael work together and one target the council and one CCFC if thats what they want to do.

Ps. Does that mean you don't agree that ACL have questions to answer?

See my first post in this thread. I agree with all three points.

Nice try though.

 

[Nick]

See my first post in this thread. I agree with all three points.

Nice try though.

I was only joking

 

[covcity4life]

And so we see the object of this exercise...make out that most people agree with 'the KCIC way' and so other groups (I wonder who he means? He never says! ) are the 'small but noisy extremes'.

How about this Michael:

If you genuinely believe in fan unity stop slagging off other fans and misrepresenting their views and aims.

Instead of trying to undermine and alienate anther fans, get on with finding common ground so we can work together.

I, and other people involved with GCBttR have (until now!) purposely ignored all of the snide little attacks, lies and misrepresentations coming from you over the past few months and focussed on always giving credit for the work KCIC / NOPM have done over the past few years that has kept the issue in the spotlight and brought pressure on many of the sides in this dispute, from Sisu to the FA.

We've been happy to support Fix Football (although you seem to have got bored with that) and we would have been happy to try and get some answers out of Joy when you were pushing that line but you seem to have moved on from that too but we have common ground.

We've positioned ourselves as part of the circle of different fans groups that are surrounding the organisations that can actually affect change in this ridiculous saga and we are happy to acknowledge that we are only a part of a wider grouping of supporters and their views. You seem to take the more George W Bush position of 'you're either with us or against us' which isn't very helpful or unifying IMHO.

I keep getting people saying things like 'Why is Michael so upset with you?' and 'Why has he got it in for you?' and TBH I'm at a bit of a loss. Are you taking this as personally as some of your newsletters appear to be making out? Have we genuinely upset you by including the council on the list of organisations that should play a part in solving this mess?

Look, we can spend another endless round of chat arguing who did what and apportioning the correct amount of blame and all agreeing that this is a terrible situation and how bad everything is and so on & so forth.

Or...we can work on the actual solution so that we can see our club playing football in Coventry in the Ricoh.

Sisu don't need to build a new stadium and they can't seriously think that they can get the Ricoh all to themselves at a knock-down price. Conversely, the council can't expect a football club to have any kind of future when they are just paying rent.

The compromise has to be somewhere along the lines of CCFC taking over a decent leasehold on the arena based on proper valuations and some pretty major negotiations so that all other parties involved (Higgs, Compass, other linked businesses) have some satisfaction & recompense.

The freehold remains with the city so the asset is protected, the club have a chance at rebuilding from what looks like a decent start (young local talent, brilliant manager, community-minded development officer etc.) and Sisu can look at moving their investment on. A good side issue would be positioning fan ownership / representation into a future sale.

This would take compromise from all sides, working on trust issues and some pressure will need to be applied and co-ordinated as required.

Otherwise, as long as we are watching the courts more than we are watching the pitch, this will keep dragging on and on and on and on and on and on...you get the picture.

So maybe the word for the day needs to be compromise so that unity can follow..?

#pusb

best post ever.

 

[hill83]

best post ever.

He didn't answer the three questions. Post is invalid.

 

[torchomatic]

I'm waiting to see if Michael answers. I've got the rest of the afternoon.

 

[hill83]

My feelings are known, but the kcic movement for me, is totally undermined by the ridiculous mail outs and threads on here.

 

[Rob S]

He didn't answer the three questions. Post is invalid.

1. Monkey
2. Fish
3. Banana

 

[Sky Blues]

A lot of people would agree with this, myself included, however SISU have stated they are only interested in outright ownership which would make this a non starter. If they were interested in going down this route then it's a fairly straightforward process. Make an offer for Higgs 50%, they should already have a very good idea how much that will cost. Make an offer for CCCs 50%. As part of the offers they could say they will clear the loan in return for the lease being extended. It's not really that complex of a deal.

Once they have ownership of ACL then it's up to them to renegotiate any contracts or bring in anyone else such as AEG they want to subcontract to. Attempting to bundle those kind of negotiations in with any purchase of ACL is just adding an unnecessary layer of complexity and potential point of failure.

The problem we have is that it requires action from SISU, there is little that CCC or Higgs can do at the moment past saying they will consider any reasonable offers. A door which they have always left open in every statement from that side of the fence. If SISU were to come out and say there is no new ground, we want the lease on the Ricoh and we're tabling a bid for it then there would be a case for putting pressure on the council. At present I can't really see what you can expect the council to do to move things forward. They can't sell something no one has made an offer to buy!

This is what baffles me about the GTBTTR group. They push for compromise (and we'd all like a deal that gets Cov back to Cov) but Sisu have not shown any real desire to compromise in my opinion.

 

[MichaelCCFC]

I've said several times before that I'd always thought the Ricoh was a goldmine and when this all started couldn't understand why acl had never made a profit net of football rent. And what was suing NTFC about?!

 

[covcity4life]

reply to rob s micheal.

 

[MichaelCCFC]

I agree with all three points Michael.

Nice on, Steve - appreciate it

 

[MichaelCCFC]

What is an extreme Michael?

Try looking in a dictionary if you're struggling with a word????

 

[MichaelCCFC]

And so we see the object of this exercise...make out that most people agree with 'the KCIC way' and so other groups (I wonder who he means? He never says! ) are the 'small but noisy extremes'.

How about this Michael:

If you genuinely believe in fan unity stop slagging off other fans and misrepresenting their views and aims.

Instead of trying to undermine and alienate anther fans, get on with finding common ground so we can work together.

I, and other people involved with GCBttR have (until now!) purposely ignored all of the snide little attacks, lies and misrepresentations coming from you over the past few months and focussed on always giving credit for the work KCIC / NOPM have done over the past few years that has kept the issue in the spotlight and brought pressure on many of the sides in this dispute, from Sisu to the FA.

We've been happy to support Fix Football (although you seem to have got bored with that) and we would have been happy to try and get some answers out of Joy when you were pushing that line but you seem to have moved on from that too but we have common ground.

We've positioned ourselves as part of the circle of different fans groups that are surrounding the organisations that can actually affect change in this ridiculous saga and we are happy to acknowledge that we are only a part of a wider grouping of supporters and their views. You seem to take the more George W Bush position of 'you're either with us or against us' which isn't very helpful or unifying IMHO.

I keep getting people saying things like 'Why is Michael so upset with you?' and 'Why has he got it in for you?' and TBH I'm at a bit of a loss. Are you taking this as personally as some of your newsletters appear to be making out? Have we genuinely upset you by including the council on the list of organisations that should play a part in solving this mess?

Look, we can spend another endless round of chat arguing who did what and apportioning the correct amount of blame and all agreeing that this is a terrible situation and how bad everything is and so on & so forth.

Or...we can work on the actual solution so that we can see our club playing football in Coventry in the Ricoh.

Sisu don't need to build a new stadium and they can't seriously think that they can get the Ricoh all to themselves at a knock-down price. Conversely, the council can't expect a football club to have any kind of future when they are just paying rent.

The compromise has to be somewhere along the lines of CCFC taking over a decent leasehold on the arena based on proper valuations and some pretty major negotiations so that all other parties involved (Higgs, Compass, other linked businesses) have some satisfaction & recompense.

The freehold remains with the city so the asset is protected, the club have a chance at rebuilding from what looks like a decent start (young local talent, brilliant manager, community-minded development officer etc.) and Sisu can look at moving their investment on. A good side issue would be positioning fan ownership / representation into a future sale.

This would take compromise from all sides, working on trust issues and some pressure will need to be applied and co-ordinated as required.

Otherwise, as long as we are watching the courts more than we are watching the pitch, this will keep dragging on and on and on and on and on and on...you get the picture.

So maybe the word for the day needs to be compromise so that unity can follow..?

#pusb

Good to hear from you Rob but taken aback a bit by the accusation of "lies". It's a serious allegation to make on a public forum so care to back it up with some evidence?

 

[MichaelCCFC]

What questions do ACL need to answer ,what have they done wrong ?:thinking about:

I've said several times before that I'd always thought the Ricoh was a goldmine and when this all started couldn't understand why acl had never made a profit net of football rent. And what was suing NTFC about?!

 

[fernandopartridge]

And so we see the object of this exercise...make out that most people agree with 'the KCIC way' and so other groups (I wonder who he means? He never says! ) are the 'small but noisy extremes'.

How about this Michael:

If you genuinely believe in fan unity stop slagging off other fans and misrepresenting their views and aims.

Instead of trying to undermine and alienate anther fans, get on with finding common ground so we can work together.

I, and other people involved with GCBttR have (until now!) purposely ignored all of the snide little attacks, lies and misrepresentations coming from you over the past few months and focussed on always giving credit for the work KCIC / NOPM have done over the past few years that has kept the issue in the spotlight and brought pressure on many of the sides in this dispute, from Sisu to the FA.

We've been happy to support Fix Football (although you seem to have got bored with that) and we would have been happy to try and get some answers out of Joy when you were pushing that line but you seem to have moved on from that too but we have common ground.

We've positioned ourselves as part of the circle of different fans groups that are surrounding the organisations that can actually affect change in this ridiculous saga and we are happy to acknowledge that we are only a part of a wider grouping of supporters and their views. You seem to take the more George W Bush position of 'you're either with us or against us' which isn't very helpful or unifying IMHO.

I keep getting people saying things like 'Why is Michael so upset with you?' and 'Why has he got it in for you?' and TBH I'm at a bit of a loss. Are you taking this as personally as some of your newsletters appear to be making out? Have we genuinely upset you by including the council on the list of organisations that should play a part in solving this mess?

Look, we can spend another endless round of chat arguing who did what and apportioning the correct amount of blame and all agreeing that this is a terrible situation and how bad everything is and so on & so forth.

Or...we can work on the actual solution so that we can see our club playing football in Coventry in the Ricoh.

Sisu don't need to build a new stadium and they can't seriously think that they can get the Ricoh all to themselves at a knock-down price. Conversely, the council can't expect a football club to have any kind of future when they are just paying rent.

The compromise has to be somewhere along the lines of CCFC taking over a decent leasehold on the arena based on proper valuations and some pretty major negotiations so that all other parties involved (Higgs, Compass, other linked businesses) have some satisfaction & recompense.

The freehold remains with the city so the asset is protected, the club have a chance at rebuilding from what looks like a decent start (young local talent, brilliant manager, community-minded development officer etc.) and Sisu can look at moving their investment on. A good side issue would be positioning fan ownership / representation into a future sale.

This would take compromise from all sides, working on trust issues and some pressure will need to be applied and co-ordinated as required.

Otherwise, as long as we are watching the courts more than we are watching the pitch, this will keep dragging on and on and on and on and on and on...you get the picture.

So maybe the word for the day needs to be compromise so that unity can follow..?

#pusb

Great post.

 

[Nick]

Good to hear from you Rob but taken aback a bit by the accusation of "lies". It's a serious allegation to make on a public forum so care to back it up with some evidence?

You aren't going to threaten another fan with your solicitor are you? Then make jokes out of SISU threatening fans while acting like a hero??

 

[Nick]

Try looking in a dictionary if you're struggling with a word????

Hilarious, I was just wondering what your definition of extreme was and how it ranked compared to driving round a city with a doll and taking pictures with ticks and crosses stuck to it?

Nobody doubts just how much effort you put in and some of the great work you do, but you come on here and spout stuff about extremes while standing next to a garden table in the centre of London?

 

[Ian1779]

Michael you've repeatedly tried to discredit the work of others whilst lauding up your own campaign.

Try appreciating other peoples viewpoints instead of giving them grief because they don't buy into yours.

 

[shmmeee]

Great post.

It's really not. Aside from the usual vague accusations against Michael, while claiming to be all for him, what on earth does this mean:

The compromise has to be somewhere along the lines of CCFC taking over a decent leasehold on the arena based on proper valuations and some pretty major negotiations so that all other parties involved (Higgs, Compass, other linked businesses) have some satisfaction & recompense.

What's "decent"? What's "proper"? Isn't the entire point that the "pretty major negotiations" have failed to provide "some satisfaction and recompense"? What exactly does this do to move anything forward?

It's basically saying "Oh, what we need is for everyone to just sort it out". Well cheers Kofi Annan.

What's needed isn't someone weighing in with a fait accompli that's almost exactly what one side is asking for, it's someone who can find the start of a middle ground that brings benefits to the fans. They shouldn't have a dog in the fight. They shouldn't be determining the "best" outcome beyond the fans needs.

 

[shmmeee]

You aren't going to threaten another fan with your solicitor are you? Then make jokes out of SISU threatening fans while acting like a hero??

There is a huge difference between a club suing it's fans and one private individual suing another, not that Michael even suggested anything like that.

You cheeky monkey.

 

[Nick]

There is a huge difference between a club suing it's fans and one private individual suing another, not that Michael even suggested anything like that.

You cheeky monkey.

So it's ok for somebody to make a big deal about threatening fans with legal action or their solicitor while the same person moaning about it and making up crap jokes does it themselves?

If you can't beat them, join them I guess....

 

[skybluetony176]

There's a pattern appearing here.

There's a low turn out at a council demonstration and all of a sudden it's have a go at Michael day.

Sisu have a bad day in court and again it's have a go at Michael day.

If I was you Michael I wouldn't take the risk. Go away for a fortnight the day the JR is due to end, turn your phone off and don't tell anyone where you are. If sisu lose I fear that there might be a hit out on you ;-)

 

[Ian1779]

Or maybe Michael began the thread with his latest ramblings??

 

[Nick]

There's a pattern appearing here.

There's a low turn out at a council demonstration and all of a sudden it's have a go at Michael day.

Sisu have a bad day in court and again it's have a go at Michael day.

If I was you Michael I wouldn't take the risk. Go away for a fortnight the day the JR is due to end, turn your phone off and don't tell anyone where you are. If sisu lose I fear that there might be a hit out on you ;-)

I can safely say it's nothing to do with any of them

 

[DaleM]

I can safely say it's nothing to do with any of them

Bollocks Timmy , I know what your up to ;-)

 

[hill83]

There's a pattern appearing here.

There's a low turn out at a council demonstration and all of a sudden it's have a go at Michael day.

Sisu have a bad day in court and again it's have a go at Michael day.

If I was you Michael I wouldn't take the risk. Go away for a fortnight the day the JR is due to end, turn your phone off and don't tell anyone where you are. If sisu lose I fear that there might be a hit out on you ;-)

You would be an utter abortion of a detective.