Brian Patton (24 Viewers)

[limoncello]

I think your whining about ad homs started here...

http://www.skybluestalk.co.uk/threads/44983-Council-Protest/page5?p=701896#post701896

It's perhaps no surprise you don't remember, given that almost all of your posts seem to go off on one about how people are idiots, f*cking heroes (ironic), w*nkers, etc.. Which was my point. You are a hypocrite mate, you complain about personal insults whilst dishing them out at every opportunity.

And now it appears that you don't like it when someone gives you a bit back. If you're going to dish it, my suggestion is that you learn how to take it.

So, wind your neck in and make your point without insults, or expect to called out for what you are. And that's me leaving you to it, because I'm sure most here aren't interested in this particular sideshow.

You're a parody act, surely? It was you who is and has been moaning about personal insults. I was pointing out the irony of you moaning about personal insults yet using personal insults.

I honestly don't give a toss what people on an internet forum call me. It's just photons on a screen. If I want to make my point using insults I will. You can always ignore them if they bother you so much.

Idiot.

 

---

[Hobo]

Oh look, the usual lot shuffling over the result of a by-election. As usual more interested in the Council than the club. You'd have thought the main interest would have been on CCFC, but sadly no.

I think you have overlooked this was a local election, not a straight vote about the plight of CCFC. It got a few votes, it got some publicity, it was never going to achieve more than that.

 

[duffer]

You're a parody act, surely? It was you who is and has been moaning about personal insults. I was pointing out the irony of you moaning about personal insults yet using personal insults.

I honestly don't give a toss what people on an internet forum call me. It's just photons on a screen. If I want to make my point using insults I will. You can always ignore them if they bother you so much.

Idiot.

Parody? Seriously.

You complained about ad homs when there clearly weren't any in my original posting way back when, this whilst chucking them out right, left and centre yourself before and since. That makes you a hypocrite. Or you don't understand what ad homs are, which makes you a halfwit. It's admitted that you illuminate every argument with an insult, which makes you rude.

If you don't like being called a rude, half-wit, hypocrite, stop behaving like one.

And please feel free to ignore me too, but don't expect not to get called out on your bullshit every now and then - if it doesn't bother you, then quit whining about it. We're done here, I think.

Edit: And incidentally, what gives you the right to make your point using insults? Would you do that on the street, in the pub, face-to-face? Call me a wanker, an idiot, a 'f*cking hero'? Would you expect me or anyone else here to just ignore it if you did? Right. Now we're really done.

 

[limoncello]

Parody? Seriously.

You complained about ad homs when there clearly weren't any in my original posting way back when, this whilst chucking them out right, left and centre yourself before and since. That makes you a hypocrite. Or you don't understand what ad homs are, which makes you a halfwit. It's admitted that you illuminate every argument with an insult, which makes you rude.

If you don't like being called a rude, half-wit, hypocrite, stop behaving like one.

And please feel free to ignore me too, but don't expect not to get called out on your bullshit every now and then - if it doesn't bother you, then quit whining about it. We're done here, I think.

I don't think we're done, actually.

Where have I whined when 'called out on my bullshit'? Where have I admitted that I 'illuminate every argument with an insult'? Care to show some of the ad hominems I've been 'chucking about'? I didn't complain about ad hominems either, I was pointing out yours.

"So the answer is that there's no easy answer - which tends to upset people who quote things like it's costing the council millions, but clam up when pushed as to why." - That's an ad hominem circumstantial.

Bye now.

 

[James Smith]

I think you missed the point. The third party tried to broker talks, the council said no. This all happened in private a couple of weeks ago. Didn't even get to the stage of a negotiation between the two sides so no 'gentlemen's agreement' to worry about.

I think the number of third parties: Byng, Hoffman, the crowdboarder Mr Kelman, Mr Calvert who tried on his own to organise a meeting between everyone but annoyed at least one party in all this etc. is part of the problem. Each one seems to me to think that they have the solution and no one has so far. We need to be back in Coventry but I don't think the Ricoh is likely to be a possibility until at least the end of the JR and even then it's (in my opinion) unlikely under Sisu.

 

[Rob S]

Rob, when you say third party can you just clarify that it wasn't that self publicising CCFC "fan" ex pat from America promoting his company crowd boarders (or whatever it was called)?

Haha! I’d forgotten about him. I can clarify it wasn’t.

 

[skybluetony176]

Haha! I’d forgotten about him. I can clarify it wasn’t.

That's good. So who was it? I've checked and Kofi Annan hasn't been in the country for months so we can rule him out too. ;-)

 

[Jack Griffin]

Haha! I’d forgotten about him. I can clarify it wasn’t.

So who was it and how do you know when apparently no one else does?

 

[Grendel]

So who was it and how do you know when apparently no one else does?

Because he is more informed and is a sensible group rather than the other one eyed protest loons?

 

[torchomatic]

Which is why the "Poor tax payers", "community asset" thing is crap. No one in Cov apart from supporters gives a fuck about the Ricoh, ACL, SISU, CCFC, etc etc.

I think you are missing the point. It was a council election - not a supporters club opinion poll. The voters were supposed to be more interested in the council.

If people come on here talking about jobs, road surfaces, hospitals etc. you would say they are on the wrong forum.

 

[James Smith]

Haha! I’d forgotten about him. I can clarify it wasn’t.

Mr Calvert?

 

[SimonGilbert]

So who was it and how do you know when apparently no one else does?

We tried to help get talks back on a couple of weeks ago.

We also agreed (at Mr Labovitch's request) not to write about it at the time because we took the view it would be better if talks were, at least initially, conducted away from the media spotlight to hopefully allow some progress.

The last I heard we could expect some movement after the JR.

As we're not in the habit of breaking confidences, we have kept quiet about it on the understanding we could pick it up when something concrete happens - such as an actual meeting date.

There's certainly no ACL/council-driven conspiracy here.




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[Jack Griffin]

Thank you for that answer Simon.

I would rather things in the open myself.

 

[Rob S]

So who was it and how do you know when apparently no one else does?

Well, I've got this one weird trick (that internet people hate!)*

I pick up the phone and call people. Or text. Or email. And then I call some other people. And probably some other people.

How did I get to this elevated (!!) state? Talked to some people. Talked to some more people. And so on. General rule is treat them all with respect, no matter what preconceived ideas I might have about them or their views and to try and understand their point of view without being arsey, judgmental or generally rude. And listening – very important.

You tend to develop a knack for being able to piece together the actual story from the different versions that you hear from different people; when something is worth following up and when something is worth ignoring until it develops further.

In Cov circles I started doing this back in the late 90's as there was a bunch of us trying to find out more about the running of the club and get hold of some shares. One of the things that came out of that time was the first Trust meeting (it died for a bit but then was taken up again by Nigel Eccles and others to become the Sky Blue Trust). Fast forward 14-15 years and I got dragged into the Get Cov Back to the Ricoh thing and here we are.

It's no great secret or any major rocket science but it does take patience, time and trying to keep an open mind when required. I enjoy meeting people and finding out what they think and I absolutely love having my own ideas challenged and am never afraid to alter them if someone can come up with good evidence or a convincing argument.

* A joke based on all those crap 'try this one weird trick' internet ads

 

[duffer]

Haha! I’d forgotten about him. I can clarify it wasn’t.

It wasn't Ian Calvert again either, was it? He didn't exactly cover himself in glory.

Regardless, I know you've been told otherwise, but I think SISU could stop the JR if they wanted to. The precise rules seem to be here.

http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rc...x7_Soqjl8uHwWclXwHPJmYw&bvm=bv.67720277,d.ZWU

Horrible link, but basically it says...

17.3 There is a right to discontinue a claim at any time, except where:

 An interim injunction has been granted or an undertaking has been given - in
those circumstances the permission of the court is required to discontinue the
proceedings (an example of this would be where bail had been granted pending
determination of the application for judicial review)

 Interim payment has been made by defendant - in those circumstances the consent
of the defendant or the permission of the court is required to discontinue the
proceedings

 There is more than one claimant - in those circumstances the consent of every
other claimant or the permission of the court is required to discontinue the
proceedings.

I don't think any of those circumstances apply here, do they. Could it be that the talks failed because SISU really do not want to drop the JR, as opposed to cannot drop the JR?

 

[martcov]

Which is why the "Poor tax payers", "community asset" thing is crap. No one in Cov apart from supporters gives a fuck about the Ricoh, ACL, SISU, CCFC, etc etc.

I think they do care about their 116m costs to build asset - not necessarily about if CCFC play there though.

 

[duffer]

Which is why the "Poor tax payers", "community asset" thing is crap. No one in Cov apart from supporters gives a fuck about the Ricoh, ACL, SISU, CCFC, etc etc.

On the contrary mate, I think non-supporters will likely care a lot more about Council money being lost on some deal that favours SISU/CCFC over the taxpayer.*

And in a legal sense of course, the council can be held to account if they are found to do something like this.

*Hasty edit: On the presumption that might be what's being proposed.

 

[Nick]

I reckon lots probably don't even know about it and wouldn't be that fussed. Most people probably think tax payers money is wasted in loads of different ways anyway.

 

[duffer]

I reckon lots probably don't even know about it and wouldn't be that fussed. Most people probably think tax payers money is wasted in loads of different ways anyway.

Are you sure? Look at all of the heat around taking on the mortgage. And can you remember all of the fuss when there was the vote to step into the Ricoh build in the first place? This is a pretty big issue now in the City, whether you're a fan or not, imho.

 

[DazzleTommyDazzle]

Thank you for that answer Simon.

I would rather things in the open myself.

I think that "other things being equal", it's better if things are out in the open.

However, I don't think that they are equal here.

We've got a lot of history, (it seems) a lot of bad blood and too many people taking a pop at those involved with the other parties.

In these circumstances, I can see that it might be helpful to start things off discreetly and out of public view.

Bluntly, if the end result is that we get back to Coventry, I don't care if the first I hear of it is when season tickets go on sale!

 

[lewys33]

I am guessing everyone has forgotten about a certain "Third party" with Chinese investors ..........

 

[lewys33]

We tried to help get talks back on a couple of weeks ago.

We also agreed (at Mr Labovitch's request) not to write about it at the time because we took the view it would be better if talks were, at least initially, conducted away from the media spotlight to hopefully allow some progress.

The last I heard we could expect some movement after the JR.

As we're not in the habit of breaking confidences, we have kept quiet about it on the understanding we could pick it up when something concrete happens - such as an actual meeting date.

There's certainly no ACL/council-driven conspiracy here.




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This sentence really boils my piss. I have spoken to ML and he has said, to my face, and through email several times, that he wants OPEN talks with fan representation. Why can't he just say that it has to be behind closed doors?!

 

[Grendel]

Are you sure? Look at all of the heat around taking on the mortgage. And can you remember all of the fuss when there was the vote to step into the Ricoh build in the first place? This is a pretty big issue now in the City, whether you're a fan or not, imho.

.


You have no evidence to support that. The Ricoh arena offers the taxpayer no commercial benefit whatsoever. Most Coventry would have total apathy. You are swallowing your own council bullshit and believing it little man.

 

[lewys33]

.


You have no evidence to support that. The Ricoh arena offers the taxpayer no commercial benefit whatsoever. Most Coventry would have total apathy. You are swallowing your own council bullshit and believing it little man.

If it offers the people of Coventry no commercial benefit what so ever, then why haven't they knocked it down to sell for housing land then? The people of Coventry wouldn't give a shit ....... Apathy and all that.

 

[martcov]

.


You have no evidence to support that. The Ricoh arena offers the taxpayer no commercial benefit whatsoever. Most Coventry would have total apathy. You are swallowing your own council bullshit and believing it little man.

The Ricoh arena offers the taxpayer no commercial benefit whatsoever: Disagree there. When something big is on, hotels, restaurants etc. benefit. That is commercial benefit and you just made a sweeping statement that you cannot possibly back up. When we get back - as we will at some time - then that benefit will increase.

 

[Grendel]

The Ricoh arena offers the taxpayer no commercial benefit whatsoever: Disagree there. When something big is on, hotels, restaurants etc. benefit. That is commercial benefit and you just made a sweeping statement that you cannot possibly back up. When we get back - as we will at some time - then that benefit will increase.

Interesting - how much is it worth then?

 

[Grendel]

If it offers the people of Coventry no commercial benefit what so ever, then why haven't they knocked it down to sell for housing land then? The people of Coventry wouldn't give a shit ....... Apathy and all that.

I can't see the financial viability of that - most people wouldn't care if they did though.

 

[Rob S]

It wasn't Ian Calvert again either, was it? He didn't exactly cover himself in glory.

Regardless, I know you've been told otherwise, but I think SISU could stop the JR if they wanted to. The precise rules seem to be here.

http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rc...x7_Soqjl8uHwWclXwHPJmYw&bvm=bv.67720277,d.ZWU

Horrible link, but basically it says...

17.3 There is a right to discontinue a claim at any time, except where:

 An interim injunction has been granted or an undertaking has been given - in
those circumstances the permission of the court is required to discontinue the
proceedings (an example of this would be where bail had been granted pending
determination of the application for judicial review)

 Interim payment has been made by defendant - in those circumstances the consent
of the defendant or the permission of the court is required to discontinue the
proceedings

 There is more than one claimant - in those circumstances the consent of every
other claimant or the permission of the court is required to discontinue the
proceedings.

I don't think any of those circumstances apply here, do they. Could it be that the talks failed because SISU really do not want to drop the JR, as opposed to cannot drop the JR?

I heard second hand from a lawyer but feel free to chase up ML to confirm

 

[Astute]

I heard second hand from a lawyer but feel free to chase up ML to confirm

The case can be called off if all sides agree so. There would also have to be an agreement on costs. The JR isn't a criminal case. Nothing illegal has happened. No allegations of anything illegal have been made. Labo could spin it as much as he wants.

 

[fernandopartridge]

235 votes, more of a laughing stock than a stalking horse. Ann Lucas got more votes than all the votes cast for the other candidates added together.

i rather think that Rob Stevens has a long way to go if he is to become a political strategist!

You're at it again, what's your main gripe with Rob and Co aside from them having a slightly different opinion to you?

 

[covcity4life]

You're at it again, what's your main gripe with Rob and Co aside from them having a slightly different opinion to you?

he works for the council.

 

[fernandopartridge]

That's certainly another way of looking at it. However, I'm not sure it's particularly useful for any sort of context unless you apply the same measure to the other candidates.


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It's a poor reflection on politics and the voting system really.

We get the leaders we deserve.

 

[martcov]

Interesting - how much is it worth then?

If I knew that, I would tell the parties in dispute and we could move on to making a settlement.

 

[Nick]

You're at it again, what's your main gripe with Rob and Co aside from them having a slightly different opinion to you?

It is because it actually has some thought put into it, whilst it may not achieve anything it isn't just sending out useless newsletters or making up stupid polls which seems to be the most popular thing and gets people wet.

 

[lewys33]

Just had a call from ML because he "didn't want to boil my piss" haha. Just for clarification he does read the forum

Simon - ML said that the CET didn't help with talks, and he didn't tell you that you couldn't write about it - because the talks didn't happen. The council said no.

I am not suggesting you are lying, I am just repeating what ML said. Like I said to him, it is quite tiresome when fans are mislead - so what is the truth?