Only one thing is stopping us playing at the Ricoh - Joy Seppala (9 Viewers)

[Norman Binns]

CCFC still need to be profiting from the Matchday Revenues, something they need to negotiate with ACL, maybe you could look into that Michael?

Irrelevant on two points. 1 Ricoh is a lot better financially than sixfields right now regardless and 2. It's never been about rent or revenues in any shape or form.

Sisu do not care about the financial difference (which is probably only a couple of million anyway) so its totally relevant.

So just run this through us again Grendel to clarify. Robo clearly thinks Matchday revenues is the crux of the matter and Kingokings disagrees with this as being irrelevant on two points.

You disagree with Kingokings statement saying that IT IS relevant yet in the same sentence saying SISU do not care about financial differences of a couple of million pounds. Do you not think there’s a massive contradiction in your statement?

 

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[blend]

They sold the share for 6.5m why don't they just buy it back for 6.5m. If we all agree that they should do this then the impasse is absolutely by their own designs. Why do we want to support their efforts to mug others off unfairly on impossible deals that no-one in their right mind could agree to. That's what you're asking for?!

 

[Deleted member 5849]

So just run this through us again Grendel to clarify. Robo clearly thinks Matchday revenues is the crux of the matter and Kingokings disagrees with this as being irrelevant on two points.

You disagree with Kingokings statement saying that IT IS relevant yet in the same sentence saying SISU do not care about financial differences of a couple of million pounds. Do you not think there’s a massive contradiction in your statement?

These arguments always tend to overlook the fact the current, immediate financial situation is irrelevant, as it's a punt on the future financial situation.

The financial argument for their moves is perfectly valid. The social and emotional, less so.

 

[Grendel]

So just run this through us again Grendel to clarify. Robo clearly thinks Matchday revenues is the crux of the matter and Kingokings disagrees with this as being irrelevant on two points.

You disagree with Kingokings statement saying that IT IS relevant yet in the same sentence saying SISU do not care about financial differences of a couple of million pounds. Do you not think there’s a massive contradiction in your statement?

No as the strategy is clearly to bridge short term losses for long term financi gain.

The club at the Ricoh under a deal with no improved revenue structure is worthless. The club with full access and ownership of ACL is worth far more than 2 years losses at Northampton. Given the losses in the final year at the Ricoh its chicken feed.

 

[RoboCCFC90]

Good post. There is not one person who thinks ccfc should not get all income but if sisu won't buy them back at a sensible price then all pointless.

This is it in a nutshell, we all want CCFC back at the Ricoh and it's undeniable that CCFC being back at the Ricoh now would be more than 100x beneficial to the Club than being at Sixfields, however CCFC needs to purchase the 50% of ACL back from the Higgs when moving back to the Ricoh as this revenue is vital to the Club.


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[Bennets Afro]

I'd like to see the club own 100% of acl. It's more viable than building a new stadium, but one step at a time and all that

 

[Norman Binns]

No as the strategy is clearly to bridge short term losses for long term financi gain.

The club at the Ricoh under a deal with no improved revenue structure is worthless. The club with full access and ownership of ACL is worth far more than 2 years losses at Northampton. Given the losses in the final year at the Ricoh its chicken feed.

Yes that clearly was the strategy as condemmed by Judge Hickinbottom. That strategy has spectacularly failed though hasn't it? So in keeping with the theme of this thread rather than deviating from it, what is it that is now stopping us from returning to the Ricoh, at least in the short term?

 

[skybluepm2]

CCFC still need to be profiting from the Matchday Revenues, something they need to negotiate with ACL, maybe you could look into that Michael?


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I'm surprised Compass haven't terminated their contract with ACL given CCFC's desertion of the Ricoh. Aside from an annual concert, they aren't getting a bean and haven't done since the end of 2012/13. It's a pretty worthless contract at this moment in time.

 

[Grendel]

Yes that clearly was the strategy as condemmed by Judge Hickinbottom. That strategy has spectacularly failed though hasn't it? So in keeping with the theme of this thread rather than deviating from it, what is that is now stopping us from returning to the Ricoh, at least in the short term?

Because without an increase in asset value sisu will not do it.
Sisu should have distressed ACL and bust them from day one. Then we would have moved on and have new owners and owned the ground. Sisu decided not to behave like a hedge fund until far too late.

 

[Norman Binns]

Because without an increase in asset value sisu will not do it.
Sisu should have distressed ACL and bust them from day one. Then we would have moved on and have new owners and owned the ground. Sisu decided not to behave like a hedge fund until far too late.

What asset value are they getting by renting Sixfields?

 

[RoboCCFC90]

I'd like to see the club own 100% of acl. It's more viable than building a new stadium, but one step at a time and all that

So for instance if that was a viable option would buying the two 50% shares of ACL be viable for the Club?



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[Samo]

Your Carvery is getting cold Robo

 

[Kingokings204]

This is it in a nutshell, we all want CCFC back at the Ricoh and it's undeniable that CCFC being back at the Ricoh now would be more than 100x beneficial to the Club than being at Sixfields, however CCFC needs to purchase the 50% of ACL back from the Higgs when moving back to the Ricoh as this revenue is vital to the Club.


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Or even 100%? What is ACL worth 6.4million we are told with no ccfc there. A lot cheaper than buying a stadium. ACL won't sell for that obviously but may be tempted by around 10m. Still a lot cheaper than a new stadium.

We all want ccfc back and a short term deal IMO is imminent. TF clearly stated he wants peace and reconciliation and he hasn't said that ever. He also said a interim deal is and has always been possible so the fact he has said this means something is happening.

We haven't heard anything since the day after the JR when fisher and Lucas went on the radio. Maybe talks are happening? The fact nothing has been said in the media or here is a good sign. It needs to happen behind closed doors.

Players will be signing also maybe in the promise of a Ricoh deal? Would help wouldn't it.

 

[RoboCCFC90]

Your Carvery is getting cold Robo

Haha!! The Mrs is shopping and I would rather speak to you lot on here then being dragged around 30 shops in Cov City Centre..


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[RoboCCFC90]

Or even 100%? What is ACL worth 6.4million we are told with no ccfc there. A lot cheaper than buying a stadium. ACL won't sell for that obviously but may be tempted by around 10m. Still a lot cheaper than a new stadium.

We all want ccfc back and a short term deal IMO is imminent. TF clearly stated he wants peace and reconciliation and he hasn't said that ever. He also said a interim deal is and has always been possible so the fact he has said this means something is happening.

We haven't heard anything since the day after the JR when fisher and Lucas went on the radio. Maybe talks are happening? The fact nothing has been said in the media or here is a good sign. It needs to happen behind closed doors.

Players will be signing also maybe in the promise of a Ricoh deal? Would help wouldn't it.

I remember a conversation between myself and Noggin on this forum about three months ago in which we both agreed that one of the simplest ways for CCFC to return to Ricoh is for the Club to purchase ACL from the shares owned by AEHT and Cov Council.

Circa £17,000,000 outlet for a Stadium that would take no build time.


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[Deleted member 5849]

Because without an increase in asset value sisu will not do it.
Sisu should have distressed ACL and bust them from day one. Then we would have moved on and have new owners and owned the ground. Sisu decided not to behave like a hedge fund until far too late.

On the contrary.

Just they went for the riskier plan, but the one that would have given a better return, and faster.

 

[Ian1779]

Micheal - Of course the revenue streams are important.. they are certainly far more important than the rent value ultimately. Yes we can see that SISU's actions were to try and distress ACL - but the purpose of that was to access those revenue streams.. and in particular the non-matchday ones. Man Utd are one of the biggest clubs in the world financially due to their corporate strength... it's a model that every club will strive for, irrespective of their owners.

Perhaps if your rent offer took this into consideration, it would not have been dismissed as quickly. In fact, any significant detail at all might have seen a more positive response.

You also say the CCC/ACL are ready to talk? We know that Anne Lucas said her door was open for discussion, but is the same true of ACL? Can she make a decision on their behalf and it be accepted? As much as we know Joy now needs to get involved to negotiate a deal to return - can it actually happen through you or your business partners, do you have that authority?

These are the things we need to know - not just your weekly sermon with the anecdotal soundbites.

 

[Astute]

No as the strategy is clearly to bridge short term losses for long term financi gain.

The club at the Ricoh under a deal with no improved revenue structure is worthless. The club with full access and ownership of ACL is worth far more than 2 years losses at Northampton. Given the losses in the final year at the Ricoh its chicken feed.

We all hear you Grendel. But what you never admit to is that they went about everything in the wrong way.

You say that ownership of ACL and the revenues are worth much more than two years at Northampton. They could have bought back our clubs share for 5.5m and this is less than they will have lost in revenue and legal fees in two years of playing in Northampton.

If they would have bought the share back at the reduced rate offered by Higgs they would have had a big say in the arena. Trust and communication could well have been there for a full takeover. And the extra income would have paid for it. Our club would be playing in Coventry. We would have the small income needed to get us out of division three. We could have afforded to keep Wilson.

But no, you keep going on about it being the best way of getting what they want. And our club keeps losing more money. Everyone can see what they are up to. And it doesn't look like it will work.

 

[italiahorse]

But it is to do with revenues, it's a CCFC generated revenue that the Club feels it should benefit from, a thought I completely agree with.

The Club could return to the Ricoh under the new terms, but other than the rent changing, what else has changed from the old terms?


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So why won't Sisu buy the revenue streams if they want them ?
Answer : They don't want to pay for them.

 

[bigfatronssba]

So what? That's the past - I thought we were only concerned about the future now.

So you want acl to give away something that they paid for?

Why exactly should they do that?

 

[RoboCCFC90]

So why won't Sisu buy the revenue streams if they want them ?
Answer : They don't want to pay for them.

Where has that been said Italia?

Nowhere, it's just an assumption leading to nothing.


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[torchomatic]

Along with if they got hold of the arena then they would liquidate the club.

Where has that been said Italia?

Nowhere, it's just an assumption leading to nothing.


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[italiahorse]

Where has that been said Italia?

Nowhere, it's just an assumption leading to nothing.


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I'm making the assumption that to get these they need to buy into ACL.
They won't pay what ACL is worth (£10.8M min according to court papers)
If I read it correct they think it's worthless.

 

[Grendel]

So you want acl to give away something that they paid for?

Why exactly should they do that?

Are you really suggesting a new tenant wouldn't want them for free? ACL would have to offer it or they would be uncompetitive. If a rugby franchise was approached do you think they'd be offered f and b at £6 million? They'd laugh all the way back home.

 

[bigfatronssba]

Are you really suggesting a new tenant wouldn't want them for free? ACL would have to offer it or they would be uncompetitive. If a rugby franchise was approached do you think they'd be offered f and b at £6 million? They'd laugh all the way back home.

But a rugby franchise for instance haven't already sold their income streams.

In the real world if you sell ownership of something then you can't keep it.

 

[RegTheDonk]

If its revenue that is the stumbling block then the club only has to buy back the rights they sold. You cant have what you're not legally entitled to.

 

[Deleted member 5849]

But a rugby franchise for instance haven't already sold their income streams.

In the real world if you sell ownership of something then you can't keep it.

Hang on, so is the logic anybody who hasn't sold those rights, should be entitled to them for next-to-nothing?

 

[Deleted member 5849]

If its revenue that is the stumbling block then the club only has to buy back the rights they sold. You cant have what you're not legally entitled to.

And here is the problem with dealing with things such as football clubs, or stadium management companies as businesses.

As soon as you do so, you leave yourself open to business disputes, survival of the fittest.

 

[Paxman II]

Can some one tell us what revenue streams the club get if they buy back the ACL shares from the Higgs charity for 6.5m as has been quoted on here?

 

[bigfatronssba]

Hang on, so is the logic anybody who hasn't sold those rights, should be entitled to them for next-to-nothing?

Well yes.

Grendel is right in that the default position of any stadium occupant should get to keep the revenues that they generate. However if anyone new coming in sold their rights then why should they then say oh actually we need those, but we don't want to pay for it.

 

[Deleted member 5849]

Well yes.

Grendel is right in that the default position of any stadium occupant should get to keep the revenues that they generate. However if anyone new coming in sold their rights then why should they then say oh actually we need those, but we don't want to pay for it.

But but but...

Aren't you thus in agreement with Grendel?

Isn't he too saying that those who didn't sell the rights should be entitled to them for next-to-nothing?

 

[bigfatronssba]

But but but...

Aren't you thus in agreement with Grendel?

Isn't he too saying that those who didn't sell the rights should be entitled to them for next-to-nothing?

Yes he is, and on that I agree with him in principle.

However ccfc did sell it's rights to income streams. That is clear to see.

 

[Deleted member 5849]

Yes he is, and on that I agree with him in principle.

However ccfc did sell it's rights to income streams. That is clear to see.

SISU didn't however.

So what differentiates them from a random Rugby club? Surely the same should apply for both, be it they should both be entitled to revenue streams for next-to-nowt... or neither should!

 

[Samo]

SISU didn't however.

So what differentiates them from a random Rugby club? Surely the same should apply for both, be it they should both be entitled to revenue streams for next-to-nowt... or neither should!

Nail on the head. Argument over.

 

[Grendel]

Yes he is, and on that I agree with him in principle.

However ccfc did sell it's rights to income streams. That is clear to see.

I thought the company that actually sold them have or are about to be wound up? New company same deal as any other potential suitor for the Ricoh.