Delusion? (6 Viewers)

[Brighton Sky Blue]

To suggest that an entire council would agree on something without considering the economic and financial impacts and purely on the fact they don't like SISU is naive to say the least.

I think the council's multi million pound deficit combined with a failing stadium was weighing on their minds. They needed a quick buck and took it. Even pulled a fast one over the club by talking about ownership after the deal was arranged for us to return.

 

---

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Rob S was extremely vocal about how bringing CCFC back to Coventry would benefit the local economy, he quoted some huge sum as if he had done serious research (but I don't think he ever backed up the claim). He has been silent about Wasps, but I presume their presence will have a similar positive effect on the local economy.

If CCFC leave the effect will be neutral.

 

[Otis]

Michael I don't think there are any city fans that think it is a good deal other those that think it may lead to SISU leaving but now that we are cash neutral they will hang on even if there is another relegation. The silence from Fisher & Waggot is deafening, can't provide reassurances to fans because they haven't got any. Mamimising revenue, owning our own ground are valid aspirations but not a divine right, SISU haven't got the finances or the imagination to do either.

Yup. People aren't saying it's a good deal, they are just saying we need to try and make the most of what we have got, no matter how shitty that might be.

 

[dongonzalos]

The reason for the OP was in part that it's not just the "odd person" as recent threads on here demonstrate.

Lots of people say wasps buying the Ricoh is a good thing for CCFC?

 

[dongonzalos]

If CCFC leave the effect will be neutral.

What would it be if wasps were not there?

 

[dongonzalos]

I think the council's multi million pound deficit combined with a failing stadium was weighing on their minds. They needed a quick buck and took it. Even pulled a fast one over the club by talking about ownership after the deal was arranged for us to return.

You think they tricked the club into coming back then sewed up the deal behind their back?

I think they made repeated please to the club to drop the JR and make a sensible bid for ACL.

I think the club were happy to sit in Northampton till they hoped ACL died.

I think they git wind that wasps were serious and panicked and came back and got signed up. To the best deal they could with a council desperate for them to come back. Incase wasps took over and said you are not welcome back or gave them less favourable terms.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

What would it be if wasps were not there?

At the moment CCFC and Wasps' attendances aren't that far apart so just one of them being there would be anticipated to have a similar effect. Clearly both being there and successful works better for the area and the city as a whole. It also works out better for ACL/Wasps if both clubs are there, not so sure about CCFC.

 

[theferret]

The football club is and always have stated they moving out of Coventry.

They were asked repeatedly to put in a sensible bid for ACL and said freehold or nothing.

They came back and said we are off in 4 years.

For biggest negative Ricoh with no team we have already had that for a year it affects the economy. SISU proved they are willing to do it.

Next best option CCFC at the Ricoh they refused to bid it was freehold or nothing.

Next best option (council eyes) not CCFC fans eyes Wasps at Ricoh to soften blow if SISU do as promised.

Perfect scenario SISU are bluffing you get wasps and CCFC at Ricoh.

As a councillor and not a CCFC do actually have any choice?

Of course they had a choice - we all know that as long as the option to buy the Ricoh was there CCFC were going nowhere. The council could have sat on their profit-making management company for a few years until bridges were rebuilt and/or ownership of the club had changed.

Why they did was sell up on the cheap citing 'economic benefits' as the justification which is all based on a fallacy.

What it has done is effectively close the door on the prospect of promotion above Championship level (and even promotion to the 2nd tier seems unlikely in the short term). Having a lower league football team does little for a city in terms of global recognition - but reach the PL and that changes (as other council's are always eager to point out). Our council have turned their back on that and to say they had no choice is a nonsense.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

You think they tricked the club into coming back then sewed up the deal behind their back?

I think they made repeated please to the club to drop the JR and make a sensible bid for ACL.

I think the club were happy to sit in Northampton till they hoped ACL died.

I think they git wind that wasps were serious and panicked and came back and got signed up. To the best deal they could with a council desperate for them to come back. Incase wasps took over and said you are not welcome back or gave them less favourable terms.

I think your first sentence is exactly what happened. If SISU were offered the entirety of ACL for what, £5.5m, they'd have had to show enormous stupidity even by their own standards not to take it. Even the Higgs noted SISU's past dealings with them as an influence in rejecting their offer.

 

[dongonzalos]

At the moment CCFC and Wasps' attendances aren't that far apart so just one of them being there would be anticipated to have a similar effect. Clearly both being there and successful works better for the area and the city as a whole. It also works out better for ACL/Wasps if both clubs are there, not so sure about CCFC.

My point is you said if CCFC goes it balances out. I agree however if wasps never came and CCFC did as promised. Then the effect would be negative not neutral so the council could not risk it.

 

[dongonzalos]

I think your first sentence is exactly what happened. If SISU were offered the entirety of ACL for what, £5.5m, they'd have had to show enormous stupidity even by their own standards not to take it. Even the Higgs noted SISU's past dealings with them as an influence in rejecting their offer.

It is about a £20 million pound deal I believe

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

My point is you said if CCFC goes it balances out. I agree however if wasps never came and CCFC did as promised. Then the effect would be negative not neutral so the council could not risk it.

CCFC left to force ACL into trouble and to get the Ricoh for a knock down price. The plan worked and would've resulted in us getting the Ricoh, were it not for those meddling Wasps. Which is what some people are overlooking-the opportunity to buy ACL only came about because SISU succeeded in distressing it.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

It is about a £20 million pound deal I believe

Paying £6m and taking on a £14m liability is not the same as paying £20m.

 

[dongonzalos]

Of course they had a choice - we all know that as long as the option to buy the Ricoh was there CCFC were going nowhere. The council could have sat on their profit-making management company for a few years until bridges were rebuilt and/or ownership of the club had changed.

Why they did was sell up on the cheap citing 'economic benefits' as the justification which is all based on a fallacy.

What it has done is effectively close the door on the prospect of promotion above Championship level (and even promotion to the 2nd tier seems unlikely in the short term). Having a lower league football team does little for a city in terms of global recognition - but reach the PL and that changes (as other council's are always eager to point out). Our council have turned their back on that and to say they had no choice is a nonsense.

They turn down wasps. SISU move out.

I assume you would then say fairplay to you tried. You were right to ignore SISU's repeated promises to move on. The stadium now sits empty and the money and jobs generated by wasps was missed out on.

Most sensible people would say you made a very very bad decision as a councillor.

You as a Cov fan are looking at it with your Cov glasses glued on

 

[dongonzalos]

Paying £6m and taking on a £14m liability is not the same as paying £20m.

It's the same as a £20 million pound deal

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

They turn down wasps. SISU move out.

I assume you would then say fairplay to you tried. You were right to ignore SISU's repeated promises to move on. The stadium now sits empty and the money and jobs generated by wasps was missed out on.

Most sensible people would say you made a very very bad decision as a councillor.

You as a Cov fan are looking at it with your Cov glasses glued on

Or you offer it to a club actually based in the city rather than helping to import one from elsewhere.

 

[bigfatronssba]

1. What is the evidence that makes some people think the ccc-higgs-wasps deal is great? Sisu’s plan is there for all to see: they have cut costs so are not making major losses; short-term contracts mean they can liquidate if needs be; and they get an occasional windfall from selling young players. Ccc-higgs have washed their hands of ccfc leaving us with the cancer that is sisu. How on earth do the actions of ccc-higgs help?

There is no evidence that the deal is great, nor do the actions of CCC or Higgs help. Not really sure where anyone has said otherwise to be honest.

2. Why, when there is not one bit of evidence that sisu’s ownership of CCFC will improve, do some people not agree that sisu out is necessary for us to make progress? The facts are we are at our lowest point for a generation and sisu’s strategy of non-investment, selling anyone they can get money for, proven lying and disdain for supporters is all too evident. Is there a single piece of evidence to show that will change?

If anything its likely to get worse. Rather then learning from their mistakes, Sisu seem to be getting worse at decision making.

3. What is the evidence that makes some people think a new stadium will be built? 18 months into TF's promised 3 year delivery of a new stadium not one bit of concrete progress is evident so on what factual grounds do some people still think it will happen?

No need to comment on this!

4. Where is the evidence that wasps will be good for CCFC as some people keep saying? Wasps do not want City fans being critical of them as that would be awkward and rain on their parade. wasps are clearly good at PR. But this is not a joint venture with CCFC, wasps need to raise a lot more money than provided by ccfc rent so ccfc is not key to their business plan. There is not one jot of evidence they intend buying ccfc but plenty of concrete reasons to suggest this is the last thing they will do. What factual information is there that shows wasps will be good for us?

No factual information, just logic. Wasps moving to Coventry is a risk and they know if. For now they don't want to upset future potential supporters anymore than is necessary. That is good for the club as Wasps won't make any decisions that adversely affect the club without really considering it.

 

[Nick]

My OP was prompted by posters on here making the points to which reference is made in the OP and it is their evidence I'm interested in not responses taken straight from the Nick's handbook!

What like asking for facts? Yeah, about as delusional as your rent offer.

I was agreeing with some of your points but maybe Dongo is right, you should actually back some of these random statements up with facts rather than just coming back with "What do you think about the points".

 

[bigfatronssba]

Or you offer it to a club actually based in the city rather than helping to import one from elsewhere.

The Ricoh would be too big for Cov Rugby though.

 

[Nick]

If CCFC leave the effect will be neutral.

The football club would be a bigger loss to the city than Wasps wouldnt it?

 

[Nick]

It's the same as a £20 million pound deal

It is if you want to spin it to sound good isn't it?

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

The Ricoh would be too big for Cov Rugby though.

Not for CCFC who would have snapped their hands off for the whole lot at £6m.

 

[Nick]

Not for CCFC who would have snapped their hands off for the whole lot at £6m.

For 250 years as well don't forget.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

The football club would be a bigger loss to the city than Wasps wouldnt it?

The football club in its present state would be no greater a loss than Wasps I think. However CCFC in the top flight would bring in far more than Wasps are likely to-and CCFC owning all of ACL would have been a lot more likely to get there than without it.

 

[bigfatronssba]

Not for CCFC who would have snapped their hands off for the whole lot at £6m.

They weren't based in the city at the time.

Why didn't CCFC make an offer it the last 7 years?

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

For 250 years as well don't forget.

Of course. Wasps have the deal of the century, no mistaking it.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

They weren't based in the city at the time.

Why didn't CCFC make an offer it the last 7 years?

Because they thought the way to go was to distress ACL and force CCC's negotiating position. Had Wasps' chairman not shat on his own fans this would have worked. Had we negotiated the normal way things would have turned out differently though, you are right there.

 

[RoboCCFC90]

The sixfields campaign succeeded and different pressure could now be applied to sisu but some people get upset at the idea of a sisu out chant.

I really hope that isn't aimed at me, considering the amount of support I have shown to yourself in the past..


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[theferret]

No factual information, just logic. Wasps moving to Coventry is a risk and they know if. For now they don't want to upset future potential supporters anymore than is necessary. Than is good for the club as Wasps wont make any decisions that adversely affect the club without really considering it.

Deluded doesn't even get close.

So closing the door on ownership of the Ricoh is a good thing for the football club because the people who own it will probably be nice and friendly for a couple of years?

Jeez. The fact they will 'respect' CCFC in the short term is of little or no consolation, and of course they will want to keep the gullible onside - these are the people who'll be buying drinks and paying £10 to park every other week. They make money from us - of course they're going to be nice, it doesn't escape the undeniable fact that the club is condemned to a future where it has to survive on less income than clubs who get fewer people through the gates.

 

[martcov]

What wider benefit? In many ways the football club IS the city of coventry - it is pretty much the only vehicle through which we can display pride in our home city en masse. It matters to people, it is the only thing capable of bringing the people of the city together. 250K greeted the team home in 87. How many would greet a Wasps team 'home' after a similar victory? Well, none, because nobody would care and I suspect the open top bus would stay in the depot. You can't manufacturer that sort of thing, you cannot make people give a shit. The economic benefits of having Wasps here are grossly overstated, and the benefits of a successful Rugby team pales into insignificance when compared to the economic boost and recognition that comes from having a Premier League football team.

We may be getting historically low gates, but the wider city stills cares about CCFC, and will continue to do so. The fact that our city council have willingly forced through an unnecessary sale to Wasps, driven largely by spite, to the undoubted detriment of CCFC (this city's biggest civic asset) remains a travesty.

To carry on in the vein of Michael's argument....do you have any evidence that the complete council voting to sell to Wasps was driven largely by spite? Or are you just saying that because it sounds good?

Of course an extra team means extra revenue for businesses in the City. In that respect it is a good thing, as a third division football team pulls less visitors than a premiere club - as we once were. If we go down further, it may become necessary to have Wasps there keeping the stadium going.

There is also no evidence that the Wasps backers are interested in us. It doesn't mean that they haven't discussed the situation or are maybe are seeing how things pan out both for Wasps and CCFC. The fact that a stadium with two teams is worth more than one with only one team in the company group will have occured to them. It doesn't mean that they ever will buy into CCFC, but there may yet come a suitable opportunity to do so. I don't think that a coming together in some form is impossible, but it is not likely in the short term. Let's see how the situation is when SISU's rent deal runs out.

 

[dongonzalos]

Or you offer it to a club actually based in the city rather than helping to import one from elsewhere.

Would you bet a grand that once you turned down wasps and offered the same deal to SISU. After past experiences it would have all gone through honkey dory no issues. I would not have bet a tenner on it.

 

[Jack Griffin]

What like asking for facts? Yeah, about as delusional as your rent offer.

I was agreeing with some of your points but maybe Dongo is right, you should actually back some of these random statements up with facts rather than just coming back with "What do you think about the points".

Why do you say that?

 

[theferret]

The football club in its present state would be no greater a loss than Wasps I think. However CCFC in the top flight would bring in far more than Wasps are likely to-and CCFC owning all of ACL would have been a lot more likely to get there than without it.

Nailed it.

 

[dongonzalos]

It is if you want to spin it to sound good isn't it?

It's just a fact its a deal worth around 20 million to say otherwise is ignoring 12 million.

I know it is different to a house but when you pay 30 ground deposit for a 200 grand house and people say what did you pay for your house would you say 30 grand.

Certainly sounds like a bargain SISU would agree when said 5.5 million for all of ACL

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Would you bet a grand that once you turned down wasps and offered the same deal to SISU. After past experiences it would have all gone through honkey dory no issues. I would not have bet a tenner on it.

Very much so. The rent boycott, the Sixfields move, the delayed liquidation of CCFC Ltd, all done to help SISU get the Ricoh cheap. CCC offer it cheap to them then the plan has worked and on they go. Then with the Ricoh secured they can sell the club for far more than they would get for a crap League 1 team alone and wipe their hands of the business.

That was the point all along.