Fisher on new stadium (35 Viewers)

[Rusty Trombone]

I'd certainly agree that SISU should've moved far, far earlier to get the stadium. The best deal, imho, was the one proposed in Fisher's roadmap (as quoted in the JR at length). That would've got the club what they needed, and cleared the bloody mortgage (which is now hanging over the taxpayer, in effect).

As for Townshend - I think that's an outrage personally. I'm not anti-council, though you may not believe it, but for a Councillor to tell such a flat out lie just beggars belief for me.

It would certainly been the best deal for SISU, and possibly for the club. The judge seems sure the bank were never going to agree to SISU's maximum £5m offer to buy the loan, and all evidence points to him being right. He also said the Council were right to be wary of SISU taking over the loan (was it ever said in court that SISU would write it off?), again I can see that point of view.

 

---

[duffer]

It would certainly been the best deal for SISU, and possibly for the club. The judge seems sure the bank were never going to agree to SISU's maximum £5m offer to buy the loan, and all evidence points to him being right. He also said the Council were right to be wary of SISU taking over the loan (was it ever said in court that SISU would write it off?), again I can see that point of view.

I agree completely with your first point - though there might have been some scope for a haircut it was never going to be for that much. I think it was SISU going behind the council's back to the bank on this that actually started the rot. Regardless if it had have gone through (unlikely), in retrospect I don't see why the council should have got in the way. Regardless of all of the other stuff, I'd be much happier if the taxpayer was well away from all of this mess.

 

[shmmeee]

I agree completely with your first point - though there might have been some scope for a haircut it was never going to be for that much. I think it was SISU going behind the council's back to the bank on this that actually started the rot. Regardless if it had have gone through (unlikely), in retrospect I don't see why the council should have got in the way. Regardless of all of the other stuff, I'd be much happier if the taxpayer was well away from all of this mess.

And now they are. With an owner who the council feel is more secure and who has committed more to the community than CCFC.

You talk as if it was all about money. CCFC threw away the chance to buy it, not only by tearing up the "formula" agreement, but also by poisoning the well with the council. It was just ham fisted negotiation that blew up in their face. No great conspiracy, just bad business sense and a whole vineyard of sour grapes. Even at the last ditch they couldn't be bothered to try and put a reasonable offer in for the other 50%. Much like you all they cared about was the headline figure, ignoring the other wants of the other stakeholders. It's a clash of cultures IMO and as the new guys in town the onus was always on Sisu to "As in Coventry do what the Coventrians do", not barge around like you're untouchable then get a smackdown from the judiciary.

The tactics were wrong, the language was wrong and the pig headed refusal to do anything but sling mud and law suits around was wrong. Under that barrage, with a responsibility to the tax payers and a far more important job to do that fluff Seppala's ego, what the council did wasn't just reasonable, it was responsible governance.

 

[Como]

How many prospective buyers are there? I know there was me tion of a couple more proposals in addition to Wasps. But none it seems that were serious contenders.

In x years time there may be no serious options, think they were wise to take the deal, I would have.

 

[SkyBlue_Bear83]

And now they are. With an owner who the council feel is more secure and who has committed more to the community than CCFC.

You talk as if it was all about money. CCFC threw away the chance to buy it, not only by tearing up the "formula" agreement, but also by poisoning the well with the council. It was just ham fisted negotiation that blew up in their face. No great conspiracy, just bad business sense and a whole vineyard of sour grapes. Even at the last ditch they couldn't be bothered to try and put a reasonable offer in for the other 50%. Much like you all they cared about was the headline figure, ignoring the other wants of the other stakeholders. It's a clash of cultures IMO and as the new guys in town the onus was always on Sisu to "As in Coventry do what the Coventrians do", not barge around like you're untouchable then get a smackdown from the judiciary.

The tactics were wrong, the language was wrong and the pig headed refusal to do anything but sling mud and law suits around was wrong. Under that barrage, with a responsibility to the tax payers and a far more important job to do that fluff Seppala's ego, what the council did wasn't just reasonable, it was responsible governance.

The offer for the 50% was reasonable.

CCFC have committed more to the community over the past than Wasps, people like to make out CCFC don't do stuff in the community and schools etc they do, it just gets ignored.

 

[Como]

They never made an unconditional offer, WASPS did.

 

[Thenose]

They never made an unconditional offer, WASPS did.

Bird in the hand V 2 in the Bush.

Can you imagine SISU bought the Ricoh and then somehow sue the council for selling them to it with a £15m loan and demand the lond is reduced to 5p in the £1

 

[chiefdave]

CCFC threw away the chance to buy it, not only by tearing up the "formula" agreement

The formula valued ACL with an approx 45 year lease at around £20m, Wasps have paid less than £6m for a 250 year lease. Seems to me SISU may have been right to not buy at the formula price.

Even at the last ditch they couldn't be bothered to try and put a reasonable offer in for the other 50%.

We put in a similar bid to Wasps didn't we? Higgs turned it down and announced they were no longer working to the same objectives the charity was setup to achieve and would now become an arts organisation!

 

[chiefdave]

They never made an unconditional offer, WASPS did.

Didn't OSB say Wasps offer wasn't really unconditional, it was just that they had been given access to certain information and the conditional part of our bid was to be given the same access?

 

[Astute]

The offer for the 50% was reasonable.

CCFC have committed more to the community over the past than Wasps, people like to make out CCFC don't do stuff in the community and schools etc they do, it just gets ignored.

So what was the offer for the 50%? Fisher admitted that it was on condition of working with Higgs. Did this include paying over 10 years with no guarantee of funds like the last bid? And why would Higgs want to work with SISU? They have proved time and time again that they are not trustworthy enough to deal with. They have gone back on just about every deal so far. Why would they change now? Fisher hasn't. What was the first thing he said once we were back in Coventry?

You are right in what you say if you have your sky blue tinted glasses on. But if you look at it in an unbiased way you would have to say that Wasps were the better side to deal with. Was it 7 years plus of failed attempts and litigation trying to deal with SISU and 6 months to do a deal with Wasps?

 

[Astute]

Didn't OSB say Wasps offer wasn't really unconditional, it was just that they had been given access to certain information and the conditional part of our bid was to be given the same access?

So we going back to the false information about what the conditional bid from SISU was about yet again? Fisher said himself what the conditions were. They were to work with Higgs. We all even had a debate on what the working with Higgs could have meant at the time. Yes there could easily have been other conditions which were to get information that could have led to more wasted litigation attempts. But he admitted the Higgs one.

 

[Sky Blue Dal]

Yes giving Wasps rent and revenue ad infinitum is the way forward.

The real only way forward is SISU/Otium selling up before digging us an even deeper hole we in.

 

[Astute]

The formula valued ACL with an approx 45 year lease at around £20m, Wasps have paid less than £6m for a 250 year lease. Seems to me SISU may have been right to not buy at the formula price.

And yet again you choose to ignore the facts.

The formula price was before the arena was devalued by SISU taking our club to Northampton and putting ACL in a bit of financial trouble. The Wasps bid was when the arena didn't have any team to play in the bowl and Fisher and Joy saying we would never be back unless they owned it. SISU devalued it for wasps.

 

[chiefdave]

They were to work with Higgs.

Which was totally in line with the stated objectives of the charity at the time. It was only when that offer was made that Higgs suddenly decided they were going to become an arts organisation. There are a lot of sticks to beat SISU with, wanting to engage and carry out work in the community is not one of them.

And yet again you choose to ignore the facts.

The formula price was before the arena was devalued by SISU taking our club to Northampton and putting ACL in a bit of financial trouble. The Wasps bid was when the arena didn't have any team to play in the bowl and Fisher and Joy saying we would never be back unless they owned it. SISU devalued it for wasps.

It's not ignoring any facts. The formula prices was in excess of £20m for a lease of under 50 years. The sale price to Wasps was under £6m with a 250 year lease. They are two absolute facts. If you're saying what Wasps paid is far below the actual value then surely you should be furious at the council.

 

[steveecov]

Sad to say, when you look at the gallery pictures of the Wasps and the Sky Blues; contrast the smiles (especially on the kids') faces.

I know which ones look happier to me.

 

[Astute]

Which was totally in line with the stated objectives of the charity at the time. It was only when that offer was made that Higgs suddenly decided they were going to become an arts organisation. There are a lot of sticks to beat SISU with, wanting to engage and carry out work in the community is not one of them.



It's not ignoring any facts. The formula prices was in excess of £20m for a lease of under 50 years. The sale price to Wasps was under £6m with a 250 year lease. They are two absolute facts. If you're saying what Wasps paid is far below the actual value then surely you should be furious at the council.

Pushing it a bit here.

The stated objectives were to go into partnership with SISU after all the litigation and wasted money? Trust SISU to work together? Pull the other one.

And now you want me to blame CCC for SISU taking my football club to Northampton to devalue the Ricoh :laugh:

 

[torchomatic]

OK, so CCFC might be fucked for good, but hey CCC got one over on SISU. Result. Let's party, etc etc.

 

[steveecov]

Pushing it a bit here.

The stated objectives were to go into partnership with SISU after all the litigation and wasted money? Trust SISU to work together? Pull the other one.

And now you want me to blame CCC for SISU taking my football club to Northampton to devalue the Ricoh :laugh:

And, if for no other reason, that alone will be Sisu's legacy.

A "Gerald Ratner" moment.

 

[Raggs]

Did the formula prices include taking on £14.4 million in debt? Or was it without that debt?

 

[Astute]

OK, so CCFC might be fucked for good, but hey CCC got one over on SISU. Result. Let's party, etc etc.

So who has said that and where?

I didn't know that I wasn't allowed to be realistic on here. Just debate on anything as long as it makes CCC look bad. Take some of the blame off SISU. Would you like to show me where I have said anything about being happy with the situation. Happy about my club being shagged? Happy about Wasps getting the arena? Just being realistic about the situation and nothing else. As you know I don't live anywhere near Coventry. So why would I like them to come out best?

Or are you saying that money should have been taken away from services that helps the needy so they could continue the battle against SISU? It may be my football club. But people that I don't know but need help must come first. Or have you not noticed the massive cuts that local councils are having to deal with? Should CCC have kept wasting time and money they can't afford because a hedge fund kept taking the piss and continues to do so?

 

[torchomatic]

Jeez, the sycophantic nonsense gets worse on here every day. You forgot to mention poor homeless orphans that SISU tried to kidnap and burn to keep themselves warm. What about the "needy" when Higgs share was sold for less? What about the needy when £14M was used to prop up ACL? What about the "needy" when CCC announced they were giving money to developers for redeveloping Cathedral Lanes? And to bring it bang up to date, did CCC think of the "needy" when Lucas and 7 others (plus some from WCC) swanned off to Cannes this week for a property conference?

If you throw the "what about the poor people" line around regarding litigation with SISU then you have to throw it back at CCC when they waste money going to the South of France. She admitted this morning that they didn't drum up any business while they were out there either.

Or are you saying that money should have been taken away from services that helps the needy so they could continue the battle against SISU? It may be my football club. But people that I don't know but need help must come first. Or have you not noticed the massive cuts that local councils are having to deal with? Should CCC have kept wasting time and money they can't afford because a hedge fund kept taking the piss and continues to do so?

 

[SkyBlue_Bear83]

So what was the offer for the 50%? Fisher admitted that it was on condition of working with Higgs. Did this include paying over 10 years with no guarantee of funds like the last bid? And why would Higgs want to work with SISU? They have proved time and time again that they are not trustworthy enough to deal with. They have gone back on just about every deal so far. Why would they change now? Fisher hasn't. What was the first thing he said once we were back in Coventry?

You are right in what you say if you have your sky blue tinted glasses on. But if you look at it in an unbiased way you would have to say that Wasps were the better side to deal with. Was it 7 years plus of failed attempts and litigation trying to deal with SISU and 6 months to do a deal with Wasps?

I said it was a reasonable offer which it was, not that it was better than the offer from Wasps.

 

[chiefdave]

Did the formula prices include taking on £14.4 million in debt? Or was it without that debt?

If they had paid the £20m formula price they would still have had to repay the loan on top of that.

 

[chiefdave]

The stated objectives were to go into partnership with SISU after all the litigation and wasted money?

No but you know as well as I do Higgs changed the objectives of the charity when SISU suggested working together on the basis of their, at the time, stated objectives.

And now you want me to blame CCC for SISU taking my football club to Northampton to devalue the Ricoh

If you're saying the £20m formula price was one we should have paid then presumably you believe that to be a true value. Why then would you support the council selling at a massively devalued cost? Would the better course of action not be to retain the asset and restore it to full value before selling?

 

[Astute]

Jeez, the sycophantic nonsense gets worse on here every day. You forgot to mention poor homeless orphans that SISU tried to kidnap and burn to keep themselves warm. What about the "needy" when Higgs share was sold for less? What about the needy when £14M was used to prop up ACL? What about the "needy" when CCC announced they were giving money to developers for redeveloping Cathedral Lanes? And to bring it bang up to date, did CCC think of the "needy" when Lucas and 7 others (plus some from WCC) swanned off to Cannes this week for a property conference?

If you throw the "what about the poor people" line around regarding litigation with SISU then you have to throw it back at CCC when they waste money going to the South of France. She admitted this morning that they didn't drum up any business while they were out there either.

So you say that it would have been good business sense keeping hold of a stadium that wasn't being used where the people running the football club that it was built for preferred to play in Northampton and said they would never bring the club home? It would have been good continuing to throw millions away in litigation instead of using it for public services as the tax is meant for? Who said about the Higgs money for orphans as you like to mention? I was on about tax payers money. The money that the citizens of Coventry pay. The money they pay for services.

As you have made a list of what CCC have done wrong would you now like to make a list of what SISU have done wrong? Thought not.

 

[Astute]

No but you know as well as I do Higgs changed the objectives of the charity when SISU suggested working together on the basis of their, at the time, stated objectives.



If you're saying the £20m formula price was one we should have paid then presumably you believe that to be a true value. Why then would you support the council selling at a massively devalued cost? Would the better course of action not be to retain the asset and restore it to full value before selling?

Give me one reason why Higgs would want to work with SISU after what has gone on.

Formula price? Your usual one. The one never used. Or would you like to explain why it was 5.5m before they took our club to Northampton. You know.....the 5.5m that joy refused to pay because she saw the Ricoh as worthless but was willing to make a small payment as Higgs is a charity :facepalm:

 

[Raggs]

If they had paid the £20m formula price they would still have had to repay the loan on top of that.

When was the formula price decided? Because if it was before the ACL owed £14mill then I suspect it may have been a little different.

 

[Sky Blue Kid]

OK, so CCFC might be fucked for good, but hey CCC got one over on SISU. Result. Let's party, etc etc.

Wtf are you moaning about CCC for? You don't live under CCC control. You said to me the other day, "You don't go to CCFC matches so shouldn't have any input on the forum" Did you not? So....Butt the fuck out where CCC are concerned. Before you say anything to the contrary. At least I lived in Coventry and paid taxes and rates there. Can you say that?

 

[Astute]

When was the formula price decided? Because if it was before the ACL owed £14mill then I suspect it may have been a little different.

It was decided when our club put the 50% share in the Ricoh up that it was gifted by CCC as security for the 6.5m it received from Higgs. But it was never used as he well knows. Looks good when using it as a stick to beat Higgs and CCC with though.

 

[torchomatic]

We were told if you remember that ACL/CCC did not need CCFC at the Ricoh, it was doing great, the future was bright, etc etc. Fisher told all who would listen that was rubbish they needed us, ACL was losing money. He was universally attacked for it; turns out he was right.

The club were NEVER going to stay permanetly in Northampton as has been proven when we returned last September. Also don't forget the "building trust" statements released at the time regarding CCFC finally owning some of their own stadium. They said this although as deal had already been done with Wasps.
Litigation was wrong, SISU were stupid and still are for pursuing CCC, but "millions", really? Is that how much the taxpayer has spent on defending litigation against SISU? I mention those other things as they are relevant. You cannot on one hand wring your hands with anguish over litigation costs for the poor taxpayer yet think it's fine and dandy to hand over £14M to ACL (the stadium management company with the bright future remember), or to swan off and spend thousands in the South of France for a holiday.

As for listing SISU, I shall repeat what you said yourself on a thread the other day, we know what SISU have done wrong. It seems patently clear though that many on here still refuse to see what CCC have done wrong.

Again, it all comes down to "ha, ha SISU lost". The club is less important to them than that.

So you say that it would have been good business sense keeping hold of a stadium that wasn't being used where the people running the football club that it was built for preferred to play in Northampton and said they would never bring the club home? It would have been good continuing to throw millions away in litigation instead of using it for public services as the tax is meant for? Who said about the Higgs money for orphans as you like to mention? I was on about tax payers money. The money that the citizens of Coventry pay. The money they pay for services.

As you have made a list of what CCC have done wrong would you now like to make a list of what SISU have done wrong? Thought not.

 

[Raggs]

Litigation costs and a loan are two rather different things. One of them goes to the lawyers, the other does get repaid (in half the time, with the same amount of interest now).

 

[torchomatic]

Litigation costs and a loan are two rather different things. One of them goes to the lawyers, the other does get repaid (in half the time, with the same amount of interest now).

 

[SkyBlue_Bear83]

Again, it all comes down to "ha, ha SISU lost". The club is less important to them than that.

Of course that is what it is about, even if they don't admit it. Its the only explanation for the cheering for Wasps on here.

 

[italiahorse]

We were told if you remember that ACL/CCC did not need CCFC at the Ricoh, it was doing great, the future was bright, etc etc. Fisher told all who would listen that was rubbish they needed us, ACL was losing money. He was universally attacked for it; turns out he was right.

The club were NEVER going to stay permanetly in Northampton as has been proven when we returned last September. Also don't forget the "building trust" statements released at the time regarding CCFC finally owning some of their own stadium. They said this although as deal had already been done with Wasps.
Litigation was wrong, SISU were stupid and still are for pursuing CCC, but "millions", really? Is that how much the taxpayer has spent on defending litigation against SISU? I mention those other things as they are relevant. You cannot on one hand wring your hands with anguish over litigation costs for the poor taxpayer yet think it's fine and dandy to hand over £14M to ACL (the stadium management company with the bright future remember), or to swan off and spend thousands in the South of France for a holiday.

As for listing SISU, I shall repeat what you said yourself on a thread the other day, we know what SISU have done wrong. It seems patently clear though that many on here still refuse to see what CCC have done wrong.

Again, it all comes down to "ha, ha SISU lost". The club is less important to them than that.

How childish is this ?

 

[steveecov]

Just received my rates demand for this year from CCC (pleasantly surprised).

Without CCC the Ricoh could never have happened, and part of the reason for the build taking place was for the benefit of Coventry people, regeneration and all.

It wasn't a single person's decision to go with Wasps (still hoping that they'll buzz off and nest in someone else's back garden); it was unanimous.

As for making a list of SISU mistakes; if you had to put it in writing, you'd run out of ink.